Catholic church in India says have more children

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news.yahoo.com/catholic-church-india-says-more-children-111234252.html

I’m inclined to think encouraging people to have large numbers of children in an already overpopulated country is very irresponsible. I also wonder whether the church can afford to continually support the families they encourage to grow larger, and whether this venture is really the best way to use their money and resources.

I’ve been very curious what the response is from Catholics in general, but after searching the comment threads on several copies of the article, I can’t for the life of me find any Catholics who’ve commented on it. The reaction is universally negative from non-Catholics, and I am curious about whether more people in the community here are more inclined to support or denounce it.

Here is an additional article on the same subject:
nzherald.co.nz/catholic-church/news/article.cfm?o_id=409&objectid=10760493
 
news.yahoo.com/catholic-church-india-says-more-children-111234252.html

I’m inclined to think encouraging people to have large numbers of children in an already overpopulated country is very irresponsible. I also wonder whether the church can afford to continually support the families they encourage to grow larger, and whether this venture is really the best way to use their money and resources.

I’ve been very curious what the response is from Catholics in general, but after searching the comment threads on several copies of the article, I can’t for the life of me find any Catholics who’ve commented on it. The reaction is universally negative from non-Catholics, and I am curious about whether more people in the community here are more inclined to support or denounce it.

Here is an additional article on the same subject:
nzherald.co.nz/catholic-church/news/article.cfm?o_id=409&objectid=10760493
I think that the Catholic Church has not come to terms with the question of population control. The world cannot afford to have 400 billion people and people cannot multiply like rats.

At the same time, some methods of population control like abortion are out of boundaries for Catholics.

NFP is the best, no doubt, but very hard to do. New technology shoul help Catholic Couples in NFP.

For instance, I am waiting for the day when a strip with paper with a chemical may say the fertility of the woman.

Priests, who do not have children, are sometimes out of place, for they think in times of the Old Testament: “Go and multiply and conquer the world!”

150 years ago, a child of 5 was already working. Having children was an asset for agriculture. Now, at 25 sometimes they are still at home. the Church must understand that times changed and must help people on this dilema and not preach only the more sex the better, the more children the happier the family.

But the Church is changing and will change more later on.

Remember that India in a short time will become the most populated country in the world…
 
I’ve spent time in Kerala before. It’s not the bastion of poverty that people imagine up when they think of India. They have good health care, excellent education. It really is a beautiful part of the country.

The articles posted are in some ways intended to be inflammatory. I doubt anyone in Kerala is calling the Church’s proposed program “cash for babies,” for example, like they do in the second link. Of course, the journalists could have framed framed it more positively by calling the article “Catholic Church in India Will Support Large Families” but where’s the controversy in that.

It’s not irresponsible to encourage families to have more children if those children will be cared for and loved by the parents. That the Church is offering help to parents (and that’s what they are doing - offering to help, not “paying” for children) who would like larger families is commendable, not blameworthy.
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Pfaffenhoffen:
NFP is the best, no doubt, but very hard to do. New technology shoul help Catholic Couples in NFP.
There are some very simple methods of NFP that have proved very useful in India and other developing countries, including the Standard Days Method and the TwoDay Method. Both are very easy to teach, learn, and use. Those parents that need to limit their family size are also being supported.
 
I think that the Catholic Church has not come to terms with the question of population control. The world cannot afford to have 400 billion people and people cannot multiply like rats
Actually, yes the Church has.

The Church recognizes that a human person is a creation of God. A human person is not something that just ‘happens’ when a sperm and egg unite, but rather, a human person requires an immortal soul created as a positive act of Divine Will.

In other words, a human cannot come into being without God actively WILLING it to happen.

Since God cannot commit error, nor can God will an act that is contrary to our well being, the creation of a human person is always a good thing.

And that does not matter if it is first person on Earth, or the 400 billionth.

There never will be more people on Earth than God desires there to be.
 
If you really think that overpopulation is a problem, than nothing anyone can say will change your mind. It’s not a problem in the least-and there are overwhelming facts that prove it-but you’ll continue to believe it’s a problem. Any “overpopulation” problems are caused by corrupt goverments .

My BFF, a self described “Athiest chick” said it best when she said “the theory of overpopulation is total bunk”.
 
The article manages to white-wash the most salient fact here, which is that the Church’s response is conditioned by a government attempt to float a bill that will make it illegal for parents to have more than two children. The government is proposing to put the parents of a third, or fourth, or fifth, etc. child in jail and charge them a fine. This is completely at odds with any humane or liberal view of human rights: what will happen to the children of these parents? How could it possibly be in the best interests of those children to be sunk into deep poverty? How can forced abortions and sterilizations possibly be compatible with a woman’s basic right to the integrity of her own body?
The Church’s response to this makes sense. They are making it clear that the Church will oppose this, and that it will take practical steps to make it possible for the families under its care to continue to live in accord with their values. Only a philosophy that subordinates human freedom to the dictates of draconian population control policies could possibly construe providing medical care, education and financial support to families as an evil.
 
Context helps.

India, like much of the developing world, has both areas of extreme poverty, but also areas booming in propserity and development pace. Their total fertility rate of 2.6 does imply substantial rates of population growth (2.1 is neutral), but hidden within that statistic lies the ugly truth that, like everywhere else in the world, it is the poor families having many kids. The middle class and up are having 1-2, just like Europe and every other rich culture. Not even replacement rate.

What happens if/when India becomes a first world economy and the vast bulk of the population reaches economic security? Population crash, just like Europe.

Unlike the secular alarmists, the Church takes the long view. In the long view, total fertility under 2 is a disaster.
 
I’ve been very curious what the response is from Catholics in general, but after searching the comment threads on several copies of the article, I can’t for the life of me find any Catholics who’ve commented on it. The reaction is universally negative from non-Catholics, and I am curious about whether more people in the community here are more inclined to support or denounce it.
Answering this question has to start with a value system where we compare the value of an additional person’s life with other values such as free time, the space available, the resources available, the joy of having siblings. A country that seems ‘overpopulated’ to someone who has the chance to live may be much better than the world of nothingness that the never-born never get to have. Allowing more people to enjoy life can sometimes mean that we’ll all have less resources to enjoy in our own lives. It may be a question of trading off our own comforts for the opportunity of another to experience life.

At some point it doesn’t make sense to try to have a child. If there’s not enough food and the family is already under-nourished, or if the family is crammed so tightly that they’re constantly fighting and arguing. Or if your home has raw sewage flowing around it and you can constantly smell it. Any of those conditions would naturally make people not want to have children. They probably wouldn’t even be in the mood to procreate in those situations. The gift of life in those situations becomes less and less of a gift.

Christians will tend to place less value on material things and more value on giving the gift of life. So we’re more likely to see it as a good thing to bring another person into the world, even if it means less wealth for each person. But there is a limit to that.
 
I appreciate all the detailed and courteous responses.
NFP is the best, no doubt, but very hard to do. New technology shoul help Catholic Couples in NFP.
I had not heard of NFP before and was interested to learn of it, and I appreciated your progressive outlook.
I’ve spent time in Kerala before. It’s not the bastion of poverty that people imagine up when they think of India. They have good health care, excellent education. It really is a beautiful part of the country.

The articles posted are in some ways intended to be inflammatory.
I’m glad to hear Kerala has good conditions, and I’m not a fan of being given the wrong picture by shoddy and/or biased journalism. Thank you for the (name removed by moderator)ut. Thanks, also to manualman.
And that does not matter if it is first person on Earth, or the 400 billionth.

There never will be more people on Earth than God desires there to be.
While I respect your opinion and think I understand the logic behind it, it seems that a logical conclusion of it is that it’s also good to have as many children as possible even when living in extreme poverty. I hope I’ve mischaracterized it and that you’ll correct me.
If you really think that overpopulation is a problem, than nothing anyone can say will change your mind. It’s not a problem in the least-and there are overwhelming facts that prove it-but you’ll continue to believe it’s a problem. Any “overpopulation” problems are caused by corrupt goverments .
I confess ignorance as to the nature of population vs. available resources at the current time, as well as birth rate trends and projections for the future, so I’ll try to avoid passing judgment in that regard. With that said, population has been increasing worldwide for a long time, and if it were to continue to increase indefinitely there would inevitably be more famine and death simply because resources will always be limited. But maybe the population will sort of reach some equilibrium sometime with falling birth rates, I just don’t know much about these things and I ought to learn much more.
The article manages to white-wash the most salient fact here, which is that the Church’s response is conditioned by a government attempt to float a bill that will make it illegal for parents to have more than two children.
I’m skeptical of the effectiveness in imposing fines on larger families considering that, of course, they need money even more than smaller families. I’m certainly against any system of forced abortions of sterilizations. Thanks for helping me get a more well-rounded view of the context of current situation.
Allowing more people to enjoy life can sometimes mean that we’ll all have less resources to enjoy in our own lives. It may be a question of trading off our own comforts for the opportunity of another to experience life.
While I disagree with your stance that it’s better to have more people around so that they might experience life, I appreciate that you acknowledge there’s a limit to how far that principle goes. This idea of doing a kindness to a non-existent person by bringing them into existence is fascinating, but I think misguided. Weird and interesting as it is to think of a “state” of non-existence, I am glad to exist but I do nevertheless think that if I’d never existed, there would be no obligation to bring me out of that state since I wouldn’t even be there to mind it. Hmm. That may ultimately be a fundamental difference in our worldviews that can’t be argued too well in a few posts.

Anyhow, I’m glad to get some additional insight into the situation and to finally hear some Catholic points of view on this.
 
Some further background is available at the Population Research Institute. They’ve made the insight that the UN has so far missed that you cannot just look at total fertility. You must look at who is having big families and who is having small ones and why. When you catch on to what is happening, the future is actually one of impending population implosion preceded by massive regional population imbalances, cultural upheavals and migration.

The CIA world factbook is also a nice source on total fertility rates by country.
 
Actually, yes the Church has.

The Church recognizes that a human person is a creation of God. A human person is not something that just ‘happens’ when a sperm and egg unite, but rather, a human person requires an immortal soul created as a positive act of Divine Will.

In other words, a human cannot come into being without God actively WILLING it to happen.

Since God cannot commit error, nor can God will an act that is contrary to our well being, the creation of a human person is always a good thing.

And that does not matter if it is first person on Earth, or the 400 billionth.

There never will be more people on Earth than God desires there to be.
So you defend like Leibniz that this the best of the worlds and that it is possible to have 400 bilion people ?
 
So you defend like Leibniz that this the best of the worlds and that it is possible to have 400 bilion people ?
My claim is that there exist on Earth not single person more than God desires.

God created every single person who exists today and God only does good.

Do you consider yourself to be so wise as to tell God that He created too many people and thus made a mistake?
 
Actually, yes the Church has.

The Church recognizes that a human person is a creation of God. A human person is not something that just ‘happens’ when a sperm and egg unite, but rather, a human person requires an immortal soul created as a positive act of Divine Will.

In other words, a human cannot come into being without God actively WILLING it to happen.

Since God cannot commit error, nor can God will an act that is contrary to our well being, the creation of a human person is always a good thing.

And that does not matter if it is first person on Earth, or the 400 billionth.

There never will be more people on Earth than God desires there to be.
Brenden, could you provide where the Church says this?

I’ve been contemplating “ensoulation” for a while, and really haven’t found a good explanation of God’s part in the creation of humans.

I say this because we know we have free will. We know that the sperm meeting the egg is the point of conception. We assume that no one is created without a soul. So, where does biology end and divine will begin?

Does God provide a soul for every person that the God-created biology conceives? Does God decide if the egg and the sperm are going to meet in each case - not following the biology but “by His will”?

To keep on topic - is it a “serious/grave/whatever” reason to avoid pregnancy if your country/region/city can’t support more people?
 
Underpopulation—The Real Problem

“In 2010, the UN Population Division (UNDP) found that 79 countries, including 36 in the less developed world, had fertility rates that were below the level needed to ensure the long-term survival of the population. Most of the rest, the agency warns us, are likely to enter this danger zone over the next few decades.”
catholicworldreport.com/Item/972/underpopulationthe_real_problem.aspx
 
Brenden, could you provide where the Church says this?

I’ve been contemplating “ensoulation” for a while, and really haven’t found a good explanation of God’s part in the creation of humans.

I say this because we know we have free will. We know that the sperm meeting the egg is the point of conception. We assume that no one is created without a soul. So, where does biology end and divine will begin?

Does God provide a soul for every person that the God-created biology conceives? Does God decide if the egg and the sperm are going to meet in each case - not following the biology but “by His will”?

To keep on topic - is it a “serious/grave/whatever” reason to avoid pregnancy if your country/region/city can’t support more people?
There is a good discussion on ensoulment here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=155970
 
It seems that many will continue to worry about overpopulation until we are deep into a depopulation spiral that is irreversible. Western countries are leading the way with fertility rates below replacement level.

Meanwhile, places with very high population densities like New York City, Tokyo, Hong Kong, experience economic growth while places with declining populations turn into ghost towns. It’s happened to small towns in Kansas. No population, economic decline.
 
Brenden, could you provide where the Church says this?
Aquinas. Humans are not true creators, as we can only take what prexists. God alone is a true creator. A human cannot create a soul, which is a metaphysical entity. We do not have either the potential or actuality of immortal creation.
I’ve been contemplating “ensoulation” for a while, and really haven’t found a good explanation of God’s part in the creation of humans.
I say this because we know we have free will. We know that the sperm meeting the egg is the point of conception. We assume that no one is created without a soul. So, where does biology end and divine will begin?
Sperm and egg carry only the material accidental properties of human nature ( our genetics). The metaphysical is Divinely created.

The creation of a unique, immortal soul can only reside with God.
Does God provide a soul for every person that the God-created biology conceives? Does God decide if the egg and the sperm are going to meet in each case - not following the biology but “by His will”?
Conception, by definition, cannot occur with God creating a corresponding soul. Otherwise, the union of sperm and egg does not, and cannot, result in new life.

The biological expression of that comes in several forms, including that of a blighted ovum or several other types of failed conception.
To keep on topic - is it a “serious/grave/whatever” reason to avoid pregnancy if your country/region/city can’t support more people?
How does one define the inability of a location to support more people?

Read Mt 6:25-32 and ask yourself the same question again.
 
Thanks!

That thread helped, I think. So, if the Church says that life begins at conception, but is uncommited as to ensoulment, although ensoulment at conception - “has long been the more common and probable theory.”, where does that leave us with whether conception is purely biological or not?
From a biolgical standpoint, conception is always purely biological. Souls cannot be discerned by science.

But also from a biological perspective, every human being has a beginning. Biologically, genetically, that beginning as at conception. Every new individual of the human species–that is–every human being–has its beginning at conception.

From a philosophical perspective, every human being must have a human soul.
 
The creation of a unique, immortal soul can only reside with God.
True
Conception, by definition, cannot occur with God creating a corresponding soul. Otherwise, the union of sperm and egg does not, and cannot, result in new life.
How do you reconcile this with the Church’s lack of definitive statement as to when ensoulment occurs?
How does one define the inability of a location to support more people?
Read Mt 6:25-32 and ask yourself the same question again.
Yes, we should not worry about where our next meal comes from or what we are going to wear. However, how do we handle the idea that having more babies takes limited resources away from already-born people? Is that moral? I don’t know - I have not given this much thought. I do know that India is severely crowded in some places.
 
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