Catholic church in Moslem countries

[KathleenGee]

For a local diocese to exist, you have to have a bishop. Without a diocese, there is no church.

The USA is still designated mission country.

But it causes me such affliction to see our Christian brethren suffering so much around the world in the face of Christian silence.

 

[jerome_ky]

The Catholic Church is just that - catholic i.e. “throughout the whole” world. Every square cm of land on Earth is officially a part of a Catholic diocese and parish.
…
The Catholics of Saudi Arabia and of the whole arabian peninsula are under the care of the Vicar Apostolic of Arabia, Bp Paul Hinder OFMCap, who is based in St Joseph’s Cathedral, Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates.

Thank you. That’s the kind of information I was looking for.

As for the sacramental wine, I was thinking that since the Qur’an specifically denies the Trinity and the Crucifixion, that the prohibition against alcohol would fall in line since the Mass requires wine. It may be possible to smuggle in some wine for a church, but that’s different from actual religious freedom. Even in the U.S. during Prohibition, sacramental wine was excluded.

 

[flower_of_God]

I have nothing against Muslims or Islam - at least not from what I have studied thus far. However, what strikes me over and over again is how uncritical Muslims tend to be about the origins, assembly, and historicity of the Qu’ran/Koran. I mean, the skeptics, I think, are way, way, way, way off-base in questioning the NT. But the Qu’ran/Koran… wait until they get a load of the scholarship on it.

For those who want to know more… I recommend Paul Barnnett’s Is the New Testament Reliable?. The last chapter has an excellent treatment on the subject.

They are not allowed to question anything, to doubt anything related islam.

 

[flower_of_God]

Some Muslim countries have a visible Catholic presence. Others do not. You would think that there might be some underground Catholic Churches in Saudi Arabia just as there are in China but then again, it’s possible that the Saudi religious police have managed to make sure those don’t exist either. As for getting sacramental wine, I don’t even know if it’d be possible in a country like Saudi Arabia unless it was smuggled in.

That said, if anyone knows of any underground churches in Saudi Arabia or other Muslim countries, I would urge you not to mention them as that may somehow alert the authorities to their presence and lead to their persecution and destruction.

Yes, this is true. However, I have read that if a non-Muslim goes to Saudi Arabia, they are allowed to bring one Bible with them. Any more than one and they are confiscated.

Yeah, can you believe that KJV-Onlyists will say “If the KJV was good enough for Paul, it’s good enough for me!”

Well, it really isn’t all that funny. But yeah, the ignorance in those kinds of churches is just absolutely astounding. Many of them even believe in the “trail of blood” theory which has been thoroughly debunked. Basically the “trail of blood” theory asserts that there has always been a Baptist or other “true Christian” presence since the time of Christ that has been underground but has also been persecuted by the Catholic Church. That is so ridiculous. I don’t think there were any heresies even that were known to be even somewhat similar to Baptist theology until possibly (not sure about this) the Waldense and Albigensian heresies came onto the scene. The Waldenses didn’t come around until the 12th century and the Albigensians didn’t come on to the scene until the 11th century. And, in all honesty, I don’t think either of those two share hardly any similarities with modern day Baptists anyway.

In Iran you may find underground churches, in Saudi Arabia no chance. I was there i never heard about any of this from the catholics. In the best case they pray in their houses.
I don’t know how it is in the compounds, maybe there it is allowed, but i don’;t think so.

 

[flower_of_God]

no problems for pagans to be in saudi arabia,its just mecca and medina that are forbidden for them…tell the truth

“Pagens”, as you call chirstians and others, do not care to go to Mecca or Medina, it is not their interest, so from this point of view we agree.

 

[jerome_ky]

Athos,the republic of orthodox monks doesnt allow women to come in and no one cares…its their religious tradition and we respect it,same with mecca and medina-our religion tells us not to let in nonmuslims and thats why we wont let them

Mount Athos has an area of 130 square miles and a population of just over 2000. Mecca’s population is 1.7 million. Medina’s 1.3 million.

Got any real examples?

 

[jerome_ky]

“Pagens”, as you call chirstians and others, do not care to go to Mecca or Medina, it is not their interest, so from this point of view we agree.

I don’t know, if there were a church there I might like to go.

Also, I thought we were People of the Book. Different from pagans. I don’t know what “Book” they mean, though. Lots of books in the Bible.

 

[flower_of_God]

I don’t know, if there were a church there I might like to go.

Also, I thought we were People of the Book. Different from pagans. I don’t know what “Book” they mean, though. Lots of books in the Bible.

Hehe, I would not advise you to go there, if possible not to go in that country ever.

Yes, in Coran we are sometimes people of the book, then infidels. However, it is first time for me to hear a muslem call us, christians - pagans, and this on a catholic site. Not nice at all.

 

[viveret]

Egypt also has a sizable Copt minority. They too have suffered severe persecutions that are usually ignored by the authorities or given only a token response.

The Copts and Assyrian Christians deserve and require powerful, consistent advocacy by Rome and every other ecclesiastical body in the West.
NOW!

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

and so what? Athos,the republic of orthodox monks doesnt allow women to come in and no one cares…its their religious tradition and we respect it,same with mecca and medina-our religion tells us not to let in nonmuslims and thats why we wont let them

It’s not a republic - the place is called Mount Athos, and it’s simply an independent body. They don’t allow women because the entire peninsula is basically a monastery for men. However, that’s not a “You follow it or die!” rule. For example, during WWII they allowed refugees (including mainly women) to seek refuge on the land. Recently there was an incident where a boat crashed onto the shore of it, and some of the passengers were women. The monks let them all stay on the island until they could get out. So it’s not a rule enforced in a tyrannical manner, and I therefore don’t know if it’s a good example with non-Muslims being banned completely from Mecca and Medina.

On the other hand, I know of nothing that keeps Muslims from visiting St. Peter’s. And as for Muslims visiting the Hagia Sophia…oh wait…

 

[Aboveallbereal]

I dont know about that hadith,i know there are nonmuslims in saudi arabia…and i know the only place they are not allowed to visit are the two holy cities!

and so what? Athos,the republic of orthodox monks doesnt allow women to come in and no one cares…its their religious tradition and we respect it,same with mecca and medina-our religion tells us not to let in nonmuslims and thats why we wont let them

Slight spin on the real view there in order to make it acceptable. The real reason you won’t allow us in your holy cities is not “tradition” but is because we are in Muslim opinion “unclean”.

 

[wwolverine]

Does the Catholic church have a presence in Moslem countries? I would think you could not find one in Saudi Arabia. What is the Vatican’s position on this? Also, if there are Catholic churches in any predominantly Moslem countries, are they able to obtain sacramental wine?

Dear Jerome,

Arabian Peninsula consists of many Arab countries which are muslim countries, of which Saudi Arabia is the biggest. The other are

UAE ie United Arab Emirates of which Abudhabi is the capital and Dubai is the most famous place known all over the world. They have many Catholic and other Christian churches there and people are free to pray and go for mass. I have seen many arabs drop their house maids for sunday mass, and then pick them up after the service. Easter and Christmas midnight mass is great in Dubai Church.

Kuwait is another Muslim country where also they have Churches
Bahrain is another Muslim country where also people have all freedom to go to the Church.
Qatar is another Muslim Country but not sure if they do have Church there.
Besides the above there is Oman.

I believe only Saudi Arabia prohibits any other religious activities. Wonder why when other arab countries are so open minded in this matter.

We should all pray that even Saudi Arabia opens up and allows other faiths to practice their religions.

God Bless

 

[DebChris]

The Catholic Church is just that - catholic i.e. “throughout the whole” world. Every square cm of land on Earth is officially a part of a Catholic diocese and parish.

There are no openly functioning Catholic churches in Saudi Arabia but there are millions of Catholics there, mostly Filipino and Indian workers who are treated little better than slaves. (Virtually no native Saudi arabians do any manual work or any real work at all, it’s all done by foreign “guest workers”.) The Catholics of Saudi Arabia and of the whole arabian peninsula are under the care of the Vicar Apostolic of Arabia, Bp Paul Hinder OFMCap, who is based in St Joseph’s Cathedral, Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates.

Apart from Saudi Arabia all Moslem-ruled countries allow Catholics at least some freedom of worship and of religion, though always with greater or lesser restricvtions and hampering rules of many kinds, and often Catholics are subject to violence from moslems to which the government turns a blind eye. Often Catholics and other non-Moslems have to pay special extra taxes which moslems don’t pay, or they are deprived of government benefits which moslems get. It can take many years or even decades to get permission to build, extend or renovate a church, and there are often restrictions on church size and rules such as no external crosses or any sign that the building is a church, priests and nuns are not allowed to wear their religious garb in public, etc. The one exception is Lebanon where Moslems have a slim majority of the population over Catholics who are guaranteed their religious rights under a complex power-sharing constitution.

Perhaps surprisingly it is not that dificult to get hold of wine in Moslem countries, even Saudi Arabia. And remember a priest only needs about say a thimbleful of wine to say a valid Mass.

I live and work in a Muslim country. It is against the law to eat or drink between dawn and dusk during Ramadan.
There is only one Catholic Church. As mentioned, Bishop Paul Hinder, whom I have met, is the Apostolic Vicar. Franciscans are the primary order represented by the priests who serve the parish. There are 15 different Obligation (Sunday) Masses offered during the weekend beginning on Friday. Masses are offered in 8 different languages with the church filled to overflowing. The rosary and Litany to the Blessed Virgin Mary is prayed before every Mass, and the Sacrament of Reconciliation is also offered 1/2 before the Mass. Many attend Mass daily.
Simply put, there is a very strong and vibrant Catholic faith community.

 

[Orleans_Attny]

I guess you are wrong on that one, this verse is from the last Chapter of Quran revealed to Muhammed:

(Quran 9:29):
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”

It you wish to trade quaran verses, that’s fine. But what you say is not a universal - or even a plurality - viewpoint.

Everyone’s God-given human dignity must be respected, regardless of their religion, race, ethnic origin, gender, or social status (17:70). Because everyone is created by God Almighty, the Maker of All, humans must treat one another with full honour, respect and loving-kindness.

Islam teaches that it is by Divine Will that God’s human creation has followed different religions, or no religion at all (“no religion” is also a belief system, or faith) (11:118), (10:99), (18:29). But God Almighty is not pleased when some of His servants (all humans are servants of the Creator in one way or another) choose not to believe (39:7).

The Qur’an states clearly that freedom of religion is a God-given right (18:29), (10:99).

The final judgment of all humanity lies in the hands of the One Almighty, their Creator, to whom we all return (22:68-69), (42:15).

God loves justice and those who strive to practice it, especially toward people who are different from them in any way, particularly in religious belief (5:8), (60:8).

Pax,
OA

Hat tip: Here. Here. And here.

 

[ChadS]

Dear Jerome,

Arabian Peninsula consists of many Arab countries which are muslim countries, of which Saudi Arabia is the biggest. The other are

UAE ie United Arab Emirates of which Abudhabi is the capital and Dubai is the most famous place known all over the world. They have many Catholic and other Christian churches there and people are free to pray and go for mass. I have seen many arabs drop their house maids for sunday mass, and then pick them up after the service. Easter and Christmas midnight mass is great in Dubai Church.

Kuwait is another Muslim country where also they have Churches
Bahrain is another Muslim country where also people have all freedom to go to the Church.
Qatar is another Muslim Country but not sure if they do have Church there.
Besides the above there is Oman.

I believe only Saudi Arabia prohibits any other religious activities. Wonder why when other arab countries are so open minded in this matter.

We should all pray that even Saudi Arabia opens up and allows other faiths to practice their religions.

God Bless

I’m not sure open minded is the right wording in this instance. Yes there are Catholic Churches in these various countries you mentioned. Having said that though, they are forbidden from carrying out mission work and I believe Muslims are forbidden from entering the churches (not by the churches themselves but by the religious authorities). Also, the churches weren’t built for a native population to use, but is mainly for tourists and migrant workers, who mostly come from SE Asia. I also believe that most if not all countries it is still illegal for a Muslim to convert to Christianity.

ChadS

 

[Sam_777]

The Qur’an states clearly that freedom of religion is a God-given right (18:29), (10:99).

I suggest you read “the abrogating and abrogated verses in Quran”, those peaceful verses during Madina time have been replaced by the war verses in Mecca time.

 

[Sam_777]

I also believe that most if not all countries it is still illegal for a Muslim to convert to Christianity.

It’s not a matter of legality, it’s strictly against the Islamic law:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
“Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’”
(E)

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
"*…Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, “I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) *and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed…”
(E)

Sahih Muslim, Book 016, Number 4152:
“'Abdullah (b. Mas’ud) reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah, but in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community.”
(E)

 

[benidict]

There are also several Catholic and Orthodox churches in Iraq, although with the persecutions at the height of the violence many of the Christians in Iraq fled to other countries severely diminishing their population. Also, many of their priests were either kidnapped, murdered or both.

Egypt also has a sizable Copt minority. They too have suffered severe persecutions that are usually ignored by the authorities or given only a token response.

I think these communities probably get their sacramental wine by making it themselves. Grapes are common enough in the region. I suspect their wine making is done with some agreement from the government that only Christians use it and make it or only enough is made for their services and no private consumption.

ChadS

id love to see one in iraq. i think they may be underground. see plenty of mosque though. i also know they have a very small sabian group in iraq. they are the spiritual descendants of John the baptist. also a persecuted minority. peace

 

[KathleenGee]

From what I have read, Sam_777 is correct about the abrogation of verses. The militant ones are the ones we Americans have known…

Let me be clearer, I knew about the take over of the Jewish Christian Holy Land by Islam. After 9/11, I then realized the great significance of Constantinople being overtaken by Islam. We lost our second lung, as John Paul II calls the Orthodox.

Then I read timelines of how militant Islam has been causing skirmishes and wars just about ever 3 to 10 years some place in the world since its inception. And the force behind that are the abrogated verses.

I still do not know who to believe in the Muslim world about the final times of Muhammed. What sticks in my mind was that he was going more and more into battles, and giving himself special rights to have any woman he wanted, and that he used God to obtain plundering militants to join his army in overtaking and conquering other peoples and lands…and what his final words were.

I know now that the Umayyids create myths from the life of Muhammed to claim land for themselves as they did to Jerusalem…the story coming out between the 900’s to 1100’s to claim the Holy Land as a directive from Muhammed himself. And now our whole world could be destroyed by nuclear, dirty bombs because of the conflict over Israel.

So what I read over time is that there are many Muslim who have grown up living out the teachings of Muhammed from Medina but do not know nothing of the suras and hadiths that the militants are believing in and living out…,

Sam_777 is saying something most significant for us to learn in developing dialogue with Muslims moving in by us…the abrogation of the Koran by militants.

 

[Sam_777]

I still do not know who to believe in the Muslim world about the final times of Muhammed. What sticks in my mind was that he was going more and more into battles, and giving himself special rights to have any woman he wanted, and that he used God to obtain plundering militants to join his army in overtaking and conquering other peoples and lands…and what his final words were.

The last chapter of Quran revealed to Muhammed was chapter 9, so it contains the updated instructions for Muslims:
*Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 129:
The last Sura that was revealed was Bara’a, and the last Verse that was revealed was: “They ask you for a legal verdict, Say: Allah’s directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs.” (4.176) *
(E)

The last thing Muhammed wanted to write was denied by Umar (for unknown reason!!!):
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 70, Number 573:
When Allah’s Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, “Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.” 'Umar said, “The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur’an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us.” The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said “Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray,” while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah’s Apostle said, “Go away!” Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, “It was very unfortunate that Allah’s Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise.”
(E)