Catholic Church Position on Immigration

[PeaceSerenity]

My issue is that the forces of international powers are using the poor as economic weapons, Mexico has abided and promoted illegal immigration – their state sponsored booklets were being passed out to the indigenous of their own country, about 6,000 Americans have died by illegal aliens, either through crime or accidents, there seems to be more blame pointed at the USA vs Mexico itself…Mexico needs to have more focus on corruption in its own country and why they have such extreme poverty, when there are border pictures that come right up to fences, prosperity on America’s side, a barren desert on the Mexican side…

Different mentalities.

You can pour all the money you want into poor countries, but if they are oppressed by their own corrupt powers, and there is no infrastructure to administrate and inculturate better economic lifestyles, all is moot.

American economy is based on the free market. FDR brought in social welfare. The two have to go together as we will always have the indifferent rich and the poor.

Wars are never justified…but they essentially all stem from pride and greed.

The problem I see is that there is no way to escape the issue. The Mexican government cannot fix itself because corruption is everywhere, the government can do very little that would hurt the cartels or other major players. The Mexican people can do nothing because anyone who attempts change will probably be shot at.

The way I see it, there are two ways to solve the problem.

1. Outside governments and organizations take a bottom up approach to helping the people of Mexico. This means providing some infrastructure (roads, schools, water, etc.) so that the “common people” can become educated and successful, therefore having a voice in what happens in their country. (It sounds really idealistic, I know)
2. The US/others do something to solve the drug/violence problem that is spreading through Mexico and north of the border. If this problem isn’t solved than corruption is inevitable.

Ultimately, though, I don’t think the Mexican gov’t/people can do anything on their own.

 

[Nicea325]

The problem I see is that there is no way to escape the issue. The Mexican government cannot fix itself because corruption is everywhere, the government can do very little that would hurt the cartels or other major players. The Mexican people can do nothing because anyone who attempts change will probably be shot at.

The way I see it, there are two ways to solve the problem.

1. Outside governments and organizations take a bottom up approach to helping the people of Mexico. This means providing some infrastructure (roads, schools, water, etc.) so that the “common people” can become educated and successful, therefore having a voice in what happens in their country. (It sounds really idealistic, I know)
2. The US/others do something to solve the drug/violence problem that is spreading through Mexico and north of the border. If this problem isn’t solved than corruption is inevitable.

Ultimately, though, I don’t think the Mexican gov’t/people can do anything on their own.

You are correct there is no way to escape this on going issue.The problem starts it is own backyard and in this case it is Mexico.

 

[KathleenGee]

I was at a fraternity meeting, where America is the only Big Baddie…kept quiet.

I reflected how humanly impossible the solution seems to be, so overwhelming.

Then in the corner of this room, there was this picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe. I brought all this to her in prayer, and I miraculously felt instant peace and answer. We must ask her intercession and she will bring peace and open hearts to God.

Through Mary of Guadalupe, in God all things are possible.

 

[kimmielittle]

…just because immigrants are illegal in the US doesn’t mean they don’t have an identity. Let me list the forms of identification that an illegal immigrant could have (that are on your list):

1. Foreign Passport
   • National identification card (must show photo, name, current address, date of birth, and expiration date) (I’m assuming this can be from their native country)
   • U.S. driver’s license (if they arrived here legally and overstayed their visa)
   • Civil birth certificate (required for dependents under 18 years old) (duh)
   • Foreign driver’s license (totally possible)
   • Foreign voter’s registration card (if they are over 18)
   • Foreign military identification card
   • Visa (depends if you mean expired or still valid, but if it can be expired, then…)
   • Medical records (dependents - under 14, under 18 if a student)
   • School records (dependents - under 14, under age 18 if a student)

They can have all these forms of identification, so they would be able to get a personal ID number for paying taxes.

Who needs an ITIN?
IRS issues ITINs to foreign nationals and others who have federal tax reporting or filing requirements and do not qualify for SSNs. A non-resident alien individual not eligible for a SSN, who is required to file a U.S. tax return only to claim a refund of tax under the provisions of a U.S. tax treaty, needs an ITIN.
Examples of individuals who need ITINs include:

• Non-resident alien filing a U.S. tax return and not eligible for a SSN
• U.S. resident alien (based on days present in the United States) filing a U.S. tax return and not eligible for a SSN
• Dependent or spouse of a U.S. citizen/resident alien
• Dependent or spouse of a non-resident alien visa holder

irs.gov/individuals/article/0,id=96287,00.html

And as to social security:

1. You don’t get any benefits unless you pay for it…if you don’t have a social security number and pay taxes, then you cannot ask them for money.

You need a Social Security Card Number to LEGALLY work. The only way you can pay taxes into Social Security without a card is through… Identity Theft.

1. And as for the fact that not having a SSN is illegal, i’m guessing that’s kind of assumed.

Your pantie lines are showing meaning your sarcastic attitude is seen…noted…unappreceated ]

These people are obviously breaking the law, it’s something known as an illegal immigrant.

Welll…l… Yes it IS called Illegal Immigrants

I’m not saying that it’s a good thing,

Then you would have no problem saying it is wrong?

I’m not saying that it’s a good thing, but ultimately that we should be more sensitive to their issues and the issues in their home country.

Empathy and condoning illegal activity are two separate issues.

The fact that they don’t have an SSN doesn’t hurt any Americans

If they don’t have a Social Security Number and are working…Yes, they are hurting the rest of paying Americans. It’s called stealing.

I get a kick out of people who try to sell Illegal Alien Crimes as victimless crime.

Every Day…they make a conscious choice to disregard the laws of their hosted country. It isn’t just the act of 1 time illegally entering the host country…It IS a compounded premeditated act - each day they continue. If they are Catholic …it is a sin. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors…Thou shall not steal…thou shalt not bear false witness ]. As a Catholic…I’m as guilty as they are …If I condone their actions or assist them.

because the system is already overloading…the less people have it the better, actually.

The system is overloaded because more goes out…then people pay in. Maybe if 11 million + more younger illegal immigrants ] paid INTO Social Security …???

 

[kimmielittle]

I read another comment by the American bishops of how much illegals pay into the system through taxes…$9 billion.

Hmmm…I question this as… You must be documented to pay taxes. If an illegal resident is paying taxes, he must have an illegal job and may be using a stolen social security number.

They also said:

“undocumented immigrants never qualify” for welfare or health care during the first five years.

Really?? Ask the bankrupt hospitals in California and Texas. Illegals cost Texas hospitals $1.3 BILLION in 2006. Today, many are fiscally bankrupt. In 2004, illegals cost California hospitals $1.4 BILLION. (source: USA Today, 1/22/2008). It that’s not “welfare and health care costs,” what is?

 

[FaithJoy]

Given that the English-speaking immigrants to Mexican territory were largely slaveholders, and that the addition of the Southwest to the United States helped strengthen the position of slavery (and that the Mexican War was widely condemned by abolitionists as a war fought to extend slavery), I think your statement is naive and at best one-sided.

Now we are speaking of slavery?

Of course, the idea of fighting wars to “free people” by putting them under our military occupation instead of the corrupt rule of people of their own culture is still alive and well and bearing poisonous fruit more than a century and a half later.

You assume I was speaking only of war? There are many ways to free people. Never assume, you are at most times wrong.

I could list things that make me sick and tired too. But that’s not argument, is it?

hmm.

That’s a silly statement. First of all, I never suggested that America was worse than other nations. All nations are made up of sinful people. America happens to be the country where I live, because my parents moved back here when I was six. I would have no problem moving to another country if the opportunity arose, but I also have no problem living here. (I’m not an American citizen, which should make you happy because I pay taxes but do not vote.) I’d probably rather live in Britain given the choice–not that Britain is any paradise! No country is paradise–this shouldn’t have to be stated.

Then tell me where you speak good of the US? I can only come to one conclusion.

Freeing people through warfare is self-contradictory. Invasion and military occupation don’t free people (except where one clearly defined group is oppressing another clearly defined group, and even there it’s a measure only to be undertaken as the absolute last resort).

Again, you assume warfare.Please quote my warfare passage.

But in fact you need to show me where at the time Americans claimed that they were engaging in the war to free the Spanish-speaking Mexicans.

Again.

You have blatantly contradicted yourself. First you say that someone living in America who thinks America engages in unjust wars and passes unjust laws should go move to another country. Now you say that Americans would not do this (and you seem to approve). What gives? Should people who disapprove of the policies of the country in which they live stay and change their government (as you say in the passage immediately above) or move to another country (as you said earlier in the post)?

You missed represented what I meant, I think you know what I meant. Liberal classic.

More rationality and fewer declarations of being “sick and tired” would help your case.

Liberal classic…attack one personally.

Edwin

 

[KathleenGee]

I am trying to find the paper with other remarks regarding benefits by head of the Bishops conference…

One day at a time…thing is…reality is going to hit…and those kind of people that abuse the system or wherever…there won’t be the money they were searching for.

 

[FaithJoy]

My wife is from Nicaragua, you know,the freedom fighters and the communist Sandanistas. Just a recap on that history, Carter pulled ALL aid (money) to her country. It fell into flames of the communist Sandanistas. Many people died. It WAS our responsibility as a rich and powerful nation to help them. Carter did NOT. My wife’s father was thrown into communist prison and tortured for years because he worked for the democratic (was) nation of Nicaragua, now communist because of Carter. Now many people fleeing to US over the years. Many are illegals. Same will and is happening IF we don’t help Mexico, the drug lords WILL take that nation. Illegal immigration will be unfixable at that time. Unfixable. You see, talking of immigration reform will not fix the underlying issue, Mexico MUST be fixed at the source. Also, let a nation go communist and socialist means our Church also,in time, will close in those countries.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

Empathy and condoning illegal activity are two separate issues.

If they don’t have a Social Security Number and are working…Yes, they are hurting the rest of paying Americans. It’s called stealing.

I get a kick out of people who try to sell Illegal Alien Crimes as victimless crime.

Every Day…they make a conscious choice to disregard the laws of their hosted country. It isn’t just the act of 1 time illegally entering the host country…It IS a compounded premeditated act - each day they continue. If they are Catholic …it is a sin. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors…Thou shall not steal…thou shalt not bear false witness ]. As a Catholic…I’m as guilty as they are …If I condone their actions or assist them.

The system is overloaded because more goes out…then people pay in. Maybe if 11 million + more younger illegal immigrants ] paid INTO Social Security …???

Hiding Jews was illegal in the Third Reich and Abortion is legal in the United States, ain’t it funny how some laws are simply mean, or wrong, and should be, or have been, gotten rid of.

I pray the economy will improve to the point that people in our country are charitable and that we don’t have a great depression where we are as desperate to feed and help our children as the “illegals” are that are coming to the US?

Question a pregnant Mexican is straddling the boarder, facing Mexico is Planned Parenthood due to lack of food and housing and to the US is a job and another life. How would you direct this person? And no choice means someone else sends her back to Mexico.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

My wife is from Nicaragua, you know,the freedom fighters and the communist Sandanistas. Just a recap on that history, Carter pulled ALL aid (money) to her country. It fell into flames of the communist Sandanistas. Many people died. It WAS our responsibility as a rich and powerful nation to help them. Carter did NOT. My wife’s father was thrown into communist prison and tortured for years because he worked for the democratic (was) nation of Nicaragua, now communist because of Carter. Now many people fleeing to US over the years. Many are illegals. Same will and is happening IF we don’t help Mexico, the drug lords WILL take that nation. Illegal immigration will be unfixable at that time. Unfixable. You see, talking of immigration reform will not fix the underlying issue, Mexico MUST be fixed at the source. Also, let a nation go communist and socialist means our Church also,in time, will close in those countries.

It is already happening… Planned Parenthood is there. Look at the reduction in births. Supply and demand… we kill our kids so South America Supplies theirs…

 

[kimmielittle]

Hiding Jews was illegal in the Third Reich and Abortion is legal in the United States, ain’t it funny how some laws are simply mean, or wrong, and should be, or have been, gotten rid of.

C’mon Associating… or trying to associate illegal immigration to the Holocaust or abortion? Do you even know the average per-capita income of Mexicans? Mexico has a GDP per capita of $13,628. ] The 1998 Per capita income in USA $21,587…Person below poverty level in USA13.2%

In Mexico

The CIA Factbook, on the other hand, reported that 13.8% of the population was under the poverty line, as measured in food-based poverty.[25]

INTERESTING READ:

Remittances, or contributions sent by Mexicans living abroad, mostly in the United States, to their families at home in Mexico, are a substantial and growing part of the Mexican economy; they comprised $18 billion in 2005.[26] In 2004, they became the second largest source of foreign income after crude oil exports, roughly equivalent to foreign direct investment (FDI) and larger than tourism expenditures; and represented 2.5 percent of the nation’s Gross Domestic Product.[27] The growth of remittances has been remarkable: they have more than doubled since 1997. Recorded remittance transactions exceeded 41 million in 2003, of which 86 percent were made by electronic transfer.[28]
The Mexican government, cognizant of the economic viability of immigrant workers, began issuing an upgraded version of the Matrícula Consular de Alta Seguridad (MACS, High Security Consular Identification), an identity document issued at Mexican consulates abroad. This document is now accepted as a valid identity card in 32 US states, as well as thousands of police agencies, hundreds of cities and counties, as well as banking institutions.[28]
The main receptors of remittances in 2004 were the states of Michoacán, Guanajuato, Jalisco, Mexico and Puebla, which jointly captured 45% of total remittances in that year.[27] Several state governments, with the support of the federal government, have implemented programs to use part of the remittances to finance public works. This program, called Dos por Uno (Two for every one) is designed in a way that for each peso contributed by migrants from their remittances, the state and the federal governments will invest two pesos in building infrastructure at their home communities.[29]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mexico

Repeating

Remittances, or contributions sent by Mexicans living abroad, mostly in the United States, to their families at home in Mexico, are a substantial and growing part of the Mexican economy; they comprised $18 billion in 2005.[26] In 2004, they became the second largest source of foreign income after crude oil exports, roughly equivalent to foreign direct investment (FDI) and larger than tourism expenditures; and represented 2.5 percent of the nation’s Gross Domestic Product.

After reading the above…Do you wonder why the Mexican Government wants Open Boarders? Why they support Illegal Immigrants.? Why The Mexican Government cares less about the impact on Americans?

Do you know The World Bank considers Mexico a Upper Middle Class Economy Country?

As such, Mexico is now firmly established as an upper middle-income country. After the slowdown of 2001 the country has recovered and has grown 4.2, 3.0 and 4.8 percent in 2004, 2005 and 2006,[20] even though it is considered to be well below Mexico’s potential growth.[16]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mexico

 

[KathleenGee]

By the way…my grandmother told me this…‘your uncle said some day people would be starving in the streets in America!!!..don’t waste your food…’

Lately, one of my elderly clients told me in lieu of many things, in part mentioned on our thread…‘I ask the Lord to keep it away from me…just keep all that away from me…’…

Growing up on testimonies from WWII…I remember seeing the tanks coming in…yes, let us pray to keep as much bad away from us…look to Jesus…our redemption is at hand…

I got a great grace at a May retreat…you can be in a place with alot of bad people…but if there is just one person…just one person living Christ…the power is there…and the presence of the Lord blocks the bad things…and the simple soul living in Christ … in th world stops or thwarts evil…hope I am clear to others…

In response to things beyond us…live…in…Christ…share Him with others…it will block alot of bad … we don’t think we are doing much or affecting anything to make things better…but if we live in Christ and try to live the gospel…it is doing great good…why should we know the fruits…??? Live in mystery and let God be God…

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

C’mon Associating… or trying to associate illegal immigration to the Holocaust or abortion?

All are the result of legal actions. They are all perceived by some to be social injustices, so the simple answer to your question is YES.

Do you even know the average per-capita income of Mexicans? Mexico has a GDP per capita of $13,628. ]

Yes I do. It is $6,591
tradingeconomics.com/Economics/GDP-Per-Capita.aspx?Symbol=MXN
Or $8135 by the World Bank in 2009
web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/LACEXT/MEXICOEXTN/0,contentMDK:22252113~pagePK:1497618~piPK:217854~theSitePK:338397,00.html

The 1998 Per capita income in USA $21,587…

The US has a Per Capita Income of $37,867

tradingeconomics.com/Economics/GDP-Per-Capita.aspx?Symbol=USD

Person below poverty level in USA13.2%

I agree with this figure
census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/incpovhlth/2008/pov08fig03.pdf

Persons below poverty level in Mexico= 69%
globalgeopolitics.net/wordpress/2009/05/23/economy-mexico-crisis-drives-up-poverty-rate/

The World banks Figures are: 47.4 percent of the population is considered poor and 18.2%
in extreme poverty.
web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/LACEXT/MEXICOEXTN/0,contentMDK:22252113~pagePK:1497618~piPK:217854~theSitePK:338397,00.html

After reading the above…Do you wonder why the Mexican Government wants Open Boarders?

Pretty simple…remittences. With a 69% poverty rate it is no wonder.

Why they support Illegal Immigrants.?

Remittances

Why The Mexican Government cares less about the impact on Americans?

**The support is due to the $23 Billion dollars that come into a country with 69% **poverty.
blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/07/30/us-slowdown-hits-mexico-as-remittances-drop/

Do you know The World Bank considers Mexico a Upper Middle Class Economy Country

That is not what the World Bank that I went to reported?
web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/LACEXT/MEXICOEXTN/0,menuPK:338403~pagePK:141159~piPK:141110~theSitePK:338397,00.html

Or this Bloomberg site.
bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ame21xYJLpWQ

What site did you go to?

On a more successful note, and likely to make many anti immigration advocates happy, Mexico’s Birth rate has fallen from 2.21 in 2005 to just 2.10 in 2008. Planned Parenthood has been VERY successful with contraception and is making great strides to increase the killing fields of abortion.
data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN
d.umn.edu/~lars1521/BC&Mexico.htm

We will likely not have to worry about Mexicans coming across the borders in the next decade or so. They are already contracepting the babies, and will likely also be killing many more during the next decade, so the people that we currently depend on to replace the Americans that we like to kill in abortion clinics will not be alive. Mexico will not have any spare people to send.
**
The Anti-Immigration folks should be tickled**

 

[KathleenGee]

I am listening to morning commentaries…

In the past 3 years along the American/Mexican border, the sheriff there was saying 23,000 homicides occurred, including beheadings!!!

It was brought up that National Guards would be placed on our border…and the sheriff said the Fed’s have done nothing…

The people in power in our government want our country to go down. In my city a few years ago, I met a young woman into the natural health scene. She was talking to our client about social political issues…she said the bottom line was that the problems in our country and the world have come from the white, Anglo Saxon white man.

The bottom line is that it is South against North without understanding different mentalities. Sub Sahara Africa will never become like the West…there will be some integration of economies, but the people are are more communal, agrarian, and most tradition bound.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

I am listening to morning commentaries…

Kathleen, Goebbels had a radio show as well so I think we all need to be careful who and what we are listening to. Most sides spin…

In the past 3 years along the American/Mexican border, the sheriff there was saying 23,000 homicides occurred, including beheadings!!!.

**
This one says 1,378?**
usatoday.com/news/topstories/2008-05-23-2282436097_x.htm
This article says most are in Mexico. Not the number you have?
boston.com/news/nation/articles/2010/06/30/cross_border_gunfire_raises_texas_security_fears/

Can you please provide references, as I cannot find your numbers and would like to find out where your sources got these numbers?

It was brought up that National Guards would be placed on our border…and the sheriff said the Fed’s have done nothing…

**
Yeah, Bush did promise that. I don’t know why either side can do it. Maybe they just don’t want to? Money, greed, power, I am sure they all play into this? Having such cheap labor that can’t go to the unions, or police in sweat shops is kind of like having Dixie back? Some of these employers certainly could not treat American citizens like they do these people.**

The people in power in our government want our country to go down. In my city a few years ago, I met a young woman into the natural health scene. She was talking to our client about social political issues…she said the bottom line was that the problems in our country and the world have come from the white, Anglo Saxon white man…

I don’t believe that. They want to change the political power base to favor re-election, but they don’t want to be thrown out of power. Then again you can find haters on both sides of the island and all in between. People that think other people are less. That they can’t handle “Our” levels of sophistication. Basic racists. It is too bad, and not in accordance with Church teaching. Very sad and very pathetic. The same type of people used to measure the inside of brain cavities and skull thickness and try and draw some kind of conclusion to intelligence. It did not work. I guess we could jokingly call them "Bone-Heads"

The bottom line is that it is South against North without understanding different mentalities. Sub Sahara Africa will never become like the West…there will be some integration of economies, but the people are are more communal, agrarian, and most tradition bound.

**People used to say that about the China, the South and the Smokey mountains… When I traveled in Africa I saw lots of progress?? The only limitations were lack of resources. Where in Africa have you traveled? Maybe it was just your location? We used to also talk about the clash of cultures between East and West. I wonder if we could just simplify this by saying “Us-Vs-Them”, but that would be way outside of Church teaching **

***Ex 22:21 **“You shall not wrong or oppress a resident alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.” Reminding the people of biblical Israel that they had been slaves in Egypt, the Hebrews are enjoined to treat aliens, foreigners and sojourners in their midst fairly and with respect.
Lv 19:34 echoes and expands upon the Exodus teaching. “The alien who resides among you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God.” From the New Testament Letter to the Hebrews we hear, “Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by doing so some have entertained angels unawares.”
justiceforimmigrants.org/ *
***CCC 1789 Some rules apply in every case:
- One may never do evil so that good may result from it;
- the Golden Rule: “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.”
- charity always proceeds by way of respect for one’s neighbor and his conscience: “Thus sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience . . . you sin against Christ.”
*
You know it amazes me just how many people I find saying they want to get through that narrow way that Christ talked about…

 

[KathleenGee]

It was the actual sheriff in Arizona who stated 23,000 homicides occurred along the Mexican and American border…he did not specify how many died on each side.

He and the governor of Arizona are responding to the offer that national guards were to deployed along the border and nothing or a few came.

There is alot of rhetoric…but what is apparent to me is that those in power are not doing enough to protect our borders and seem to passively promote it.

The USA, according to the Arizona governor is saying that the American government is giving more financial aid to Mexico than to Arizona.

 

[KathleenGee]

NCJeff,

I was in Mozambique before and during its change into a Marxist-Lininest state…against the understanding or will of the people. Colonial Portugal did alot to help the native people, but it did not recognize the people’s culture…Slave trade happened up through mid 1920’s…Most of the country is agrarian. It has a stratosphere of people who want to be part of the international scene…

Africans had a symposium of some sorts at the Vatican this last year…I totally affirm their convictions to not pass condoms on them, but to have high expectations of them, to help them develop their own native resources, and allow these resources to become part of the international market.

I also know a priest from Tanzania who now lives here…and he says most Africans in sub-Sahara are very tradition bound, I would assume a possible reaction to survive…found the climate and diseases the greatest forces working against them and polygamy…Socialism there is now failing.

Now in Mozambique, there is the AIDS epidemic, the Catholic infrastructure was destroyed, the missions I was in or visited – most of them destroyed. There is sexual multiple partners practiced by both male and female. Missionaries are coming back in especially through the laity. After I left, the country was considered the poorest in the world, if I recall right, including Chad. Met an Italian woman was getting ready to go there, then backed out, and guerrilla warfare took over. There is a class of males who join these sorts of militias. Our Christian community called my pastor out because of troubles. We got there and saw two wild-eyed men come out of a hut, strong and able…not from the community, brutal looking and they deeply frightened the people, the catechist and his wife both getting ulcers. They left…Heard from my priest friend last year after a 10 year lapse. He went to Quelimane in 2007 and visited the place where we worked…I saw a few familiar faces in the pictures…things are finally normalizing…it was the economic exploitation as well as the power plays that really decimated these people. The Catholic missionaries were held in high esteem by the native people.

Most Africans want a simple life and are close to nature. They want education and health care…I meet Africans here and ask how they have adjusted…some come from Ethiopia or Nigeria or Ghana…and they are doing well. I was in South Africa during Apartheid, drove past Soweta, and it was a powder keg down there…it is amazing not more people died in the abolition of apartheid.

When the rest of the world becomes more balanced, so will Africa…as it seems to be the pawn so many times in international spheres.

Where Africa is doing the best is providing Catholic vocations, albeit some are compromised…but nevertheless, we have African priests and sisters in our diocese and they are greatly loved.

 

[kimmielittle]

All are the result of legal actions. They are all perceived by some to be social injustices, so the simple answer to your question is YES.

Utter Nonsense…These are were amoral Laws. It is not Amoral to expect Immigrants to be Legal. AND people who try to spin this to atrocities of the Holocaust and Abortion IMHO are sickly USING these atrocities to promote their own agendas.

It is not amoral or unjust to expect Immigrants to adhere to laws of the host country.

If you think so…please show me where I’m amoral or unjust…because that is what you are calling me, and others, who oppose ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens. usccb.org/jfi/bishops-call.html

I notice you people who champion “Open Borders” refuse to separate ILLEGAL from LEGAL - Immigration.

**

Persons below poverty level in Mexico= 69%

**
globalgeopolitics.net/wordpress/2009/05/23/economy-mexico-crisis-drives-up-poverty-rate/ No matter how many times…what color… or size you use…This is spin by you.
Here is the quote you use…It was taken from 1994-1996

MEXICO CITY, May 23 (IPS) – Between 1994 and 1996, the poverty rate in Mexico climbed from 52 to 69 percent due to a deep but short-lived global economic recession that broke out in this country. Now this country is experiencing another depression, which originated in its northern neighbour, and that will last at least until 2010.

**

The World banks Figures are: 47.4

** percent of the population is considered poor and 18.2%
in extreme poverty.
web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/LACEXT/MEXICOEXTN/0,contentMDK:22252113~pagePK:1497618~piPK:217854~theSitePK:338397,00.html
And 18.2% Of U.S.A Are considered BELOW poverty. With some 31 + million people AT the poverty line

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On a more successful note, and likely to make many anti immigration advocates happy, Mexico’s Birth rate has fallen from 2.21 in 2005 to just 2.10 in 2008. Planned Parenthood has been VERY successful with contraception and is making great strides to increase the killing fields of abortion.

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data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN
d.umn.edu/~lars1521/BC&Mexico.htm

We will likely not have to worry about Mexicans coming across the borders in the next decade or so. They are already contracepting the babies, and will likely also be killing many more during the next decade, so the people that we currently depend on to replace the Americans that we like to kill in abortion clinics will not be alive. Mexico will not have any spare people to send.

Your above statement has no logic…
By your logic Planned Parenthood has no hold in the U.S.A. Export Mexicans to the U.S.A. to get away from Planned Parenthood - A statement you have mentioned here before ]???

Planned Parenthood in Mexico…belongs to the Mexicans who live in Mexico and allow it. That is the individuals Mexican Responsibility to reject abortion and contraceptives…U.S.A. is not their Nanny.
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The Anti-Immigration folks should be tickled

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This name calling is unjust…uncharitable and a Falsehood…

I have not seen anyone here who is anti-immigration. We are against ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. You people who spin for “open borders” do ALL a disservice IMHO…when you purposely Mix the two.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

You state my quotes were old? They might be, however I did post them.

Can you please cite the references and quotes that you use?

You further claim that I am uncharitable? I don’t see how I can be uncharitable when all I want is to take care of people that come here because we do not control our own border. We set up the conditions to attract them and then punish them for coming. Is allowing employers to take advantage of these people ok with you? It is simply not ok for me.

IMHO children of illigal workers should be taken care of, more so then the adults, since they are innocent and forced to come. Many in our country would deny them even health care and education, yet our society loves the labor that their parents perform. Do you not think that our Nation is responsible if we do not set up a border? If Isreal can make a border do you really think that we can’t if we wanted to?

I honestly believe that what we have done is tantamount to putting a plate of food in front of a starving family and then told them not to reach across the table. This does not make sense to me. We should patrol the border, we should have a legal means to track these workers, but if we don’t and allow them to enter then IMHO we owe them care.

I would not put my paycheck on my front lawn and expect it to remain there, even though legally everyone should respect my property. In fact if I did leave money on my front lawn and unsecured most people would say I was negligent and although I would have the law on my side, law enforcement officials would, at least privately, probably laugh at me.

I asked a similiar question as the one shown below in a previous post but I did not see a single answer to it. I know it is a hard question to answer, (and not really fair), and it may not be what would really happen. However as an excercise of faith I think it is worth considering this in a light that makes us, as Catholics, choose between two evils. I think it is a good way to consider this from Christ’s perspective. Anyway the question is:

Question: Due to lack of food and housing a pregnant migrant is straddling the boarder, facing Mexico is a Planned Parenthood clinic, and in the direction of the US is a job and another life. She needs your help, but she has no papers. How would you direct this person? No choice means DHS sends her back to Mexico and you know what awaits her there?

You stated that I want open borders. I do not , and never would. I want an enforced border. I want employers held accountable and fined millions if they knowingly hire illegals. I want to set up legal entry points for migrant workers that have been identified as honest people. I want employers to pay them a fair wage and allow those that work in this country and paying taxes a better opportunity to legally stay, then other people that do not work here, but I don’t want a freebie system or amnesty.

All the above being said if we fail to adequately protect our borders, and if we do not punish employers that hire illegals then we should not expect people that are trying to make a better life for their children to honor a porous fence, or our employment laws when our own government can’t build a wall and our employers actively seek to circumvent laws to hire.

This current situation seems to me to be very similar to laws in our own country that punish prostitutes and not the customers. We know that the prostitution is wrong, but when a women has a family that is hungry she will do what she must if she has no other way. Would you let your child starve? What would you do?

Thank God I have not been put in the position to have to make these decisions for my family. But I have had to live apart from my family for nearly 3 of the last 6 years. And I have young children to care for. Basically doing what my superiors order me to do for my country and my family. Many families in our country are going to be faced with these decisions as unemployment benefits run out. They are going to need our prayers, but at least for now they will likely have food stamps and other means of getting food. That may not always be the case if our economy does not improve, but it is for now.

Will I want to give our food to illegals rather then our own citizens. NO, but and this is a big BUT. If we cannot control the borders and employers are still allowed to hire then I will still say that we owe them care. We need to get our house in order before we beat on hungry people.

I hope you understand my position now. I am NOT and open borders guy. I have been defending these borders for 24 years.

Here are a couple more references to ponder…

CCC 1902 Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the common good as a “moral force based on freedom and a sense of responsibility”.
Gaudium et spes 74 § 2

A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.
St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II, 93, 3, ad 2

CCC 1905 In keeping with the social nature of man, the good of each individual is necessarily related to the common good, which in turn can be defined only in reference to the human person:
Do not live entirely isolated, having retreated into yourselves, as if you were
already justified, but gather instead to seek the common good together.
Ep. Barnabae, 4, 10: PG 2, 734

By the way I appreciate your thoughtful answers, and likely we want the same results, just using different means.

Cheers…

P.S. I still think if we did not allow abortion we would not have created a demand…

 

[kimmielittle]

I asked a similiar question as the one shown below in a previous post but I did not see a single answer to it. I know it is a hard question to answer, (and not really fair), and it may not be what would really happen. However as an excercise of faith I think it is worth considering this in a light that makes us, as Catholics, choose between two evils. I think it is a good way to consider this from Christ’s perspective. Anyway the question is: