Catholic churches shouldn't have statues!

[FCEGM]

Newbie2

I think that really this has done it for me, I wont complain about statues any more!
Why did no one else on this thread think of this!? I can’t believe that I forgot about this scripture!
xxx zundrah xxx

Marsha’s point about the authority of the Church to teach on this and other areas of Christian faith and practice is a vital one. It’s also good to have the reasons why the Church teaches as she does and this has been presented to you by many on this thread; these posts will enable you to defend the Church as you encounter those like yourself who initially question the Church.

For my own little bit regarding the use of icons and statues: In the Incarnation of God as the Man Jesus, the Living Image of God became visible. Representations of Him and His deeds (including His Mother and all who are His handiwork of Grace) and His Mysteries, therefore, are not only allowed but desirable. The Church is only imitating what God Himself has done. It is the Incarnation of God the Son that is the key factor in determining if sacred images may be used.

 

[Mintaka]

And as St. John Damascene points out, writing is itself a graven image – an image of sounds and ideas, graven with pen and ink on the page, or with type or inkjet in this modern age. Speech graves itself into the air, so it too is a graven image. Sensory memory is itself a sort of image in the brain, as neural research has been showing lately. And we are all made in the image and likeness of God, by God Himself.

Re: Baptismal forms, everyone should read the Didache.

 

[Zundrah]

Marsha’s point about the authority of the Church to teach on this and other areas of Christian faith and practice is a vital one. It’s also good to have the reasons why the Church teaches as she does and this has been presented to you by many on this thread; these posts will enable you to defend the Church as you encounter those like yourself who initially question the Church.

For my own little bit regarding the use of icons and statues: In the Incarnation of God as the Man Jesus, the Living Image of God became visible. Representations of Him and His deeds (including His Mother and all who are His handiwork of Grace) and His Mysteries, therefore, are not only allowed but desirable. The Church is only imitating what God Himself has done. It is the Incarnation of God the Son that is the key factor in determining if sacred images may be used.

LOL - I’m glad we have covered this all up! I always loved the statues! It’s quite funny though when people think “I am just a protestant with a axe to grind into the catholic faith!”, tch…

All I do is ask a few questions here on CAF and people try to bite my hand off! he, he…

xxx zundrah xxx

 

[JMJ_coder]

Recall that right after God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, he then ordered Moses to build an ark with golden statues of cherubim on top (Exodus 25). Do you think God was commanding Moses to create idols? Or perhaps the commandment against idols isn’t an absolute prohibition on any sort of statue or image, but on turning that statue or image into a god. As the French theologian Jean-Luc Marion writes:

The difference between icon and idol lies in their relations to the human gaze. The gaze strains itself to the divine. When the gaze finds a landing place, when it ceases to overshoot and transpierce itself, an idol is created. (quoted in “The Otherness of God and the Bodies of Others”, Theresa Sanders, Journal of Religion 76(4), 1996, p.574)

 

[Zundrah]

Recall that right after God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, he then ordered Moses to build an ark with golden statues of cherubim on top (Exodus 25). Do you think God was commanding Moses to create idols? Or perhaps the commandment against idols isn’t an absolute prohibition on any sort of statue or image, but on turning that statue or image into a god. As the French theologian Jean-Luc Marion writes:

The difference between icon and idol lies in their relations to the human gaze. The gaze strains itself to the divine. When the gaze finds a landing place, when it ceases to overshoot and transpierce itself, an idol is created. (quoted in “The Otherness of God and the Bodies of Others”, Theresa Sanders, Journal of Religion 76(4), 1996, p.574)

Thank you JMJ_coder, I can understand now.

 

[jlhargus]

I have read that one of the first laws passed by Emperor Constantine when he made ‘Christianity’ the official state religion of Rome, was the law decreeing infant baptism in 416 A.D. I don’t know if this is 100% accurate (I’m not a historian) but do you have any proof that infant baptism was done earlier than 100 AD (when Jesus or the apostles were still alive)?

JL: First Constantine did not make Christianity the OFFICIAL STATE RELIGION OF ROME, he made Christianity LEGAL in the Roman Empire on a par with other religions. Second If Constantine decreed infant baptism in 416 AD, that would have been a real accomplishment, he died in 337AD. Third whole households were baptized in scripture. Fourth you should go to a library and read real historians not Jack Chick.

 

[zach_dunn]

How then can you have statues!? I love the statues of the sacred heart of Christ and the images of Mary but the bible says that they shouldn’t have been made! How then can you look at this scipture!?

Do Catholcs just ignore this scripture?

**
Nope, we do not. This verse is an elaboration of Ex 20:4. A statue is a likeness of something which is strictly forbidden in the Ex 20:4, but why? Deut 4:15-18 explains:

Deuteronomy 4:15-18
“15 Therefore take good heed to yourselves. Since you saw no form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, 18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth.”

The reason, apparently, is because no one had seen God. No one knew what God “looked like.” But God came to us, and showed us a form, His form in the shape of the man Jesus. Jesus fulfilled this law [Mt 5:17] by being God. We have seen God, therefore we can make statues of Him and of likenesses of things on earth and in heaven. The Catechism says that Jesus “introduced a new ‘economy’ of images” [CCC 2131].**

 

[juliamajor]

As Jaroslav Pelikan has stated there is no difference in icons for the Orthodox, Statues for Catholics or the Bible for Protestants.They are all iconic.
“Whose bible is it?” by jaroslav pelikan

 

[Ignatius]

How then can you have statues!? I love the statues of the sacred heart of Christ and the images of Mary but the bible says that they shouldn’t have been made! How then can you look at this scipture!?

Do Catholcs just ignore this scripture?

You can’t pull one verse out of context. We must consider the immediate context, the context of nearby verses, the chapter in which the verses exist, the specific books and the entire Bible.
At other places God told the Israelites to make statues of angels, snakes and other things. Perhaps you need to study the verses in the context of the entire bible instead of pulling verses out just to support your pre-existing notions.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

How then can you have statues!? I love the statues of the sacred heart of Christ and the images of Mary but the bible says that they shouldn’t have been made! How then can you look at this scipture!?

Do Catholcs just ignore this scripture?

The Bible says a lot of things - beat your son, stone your son, exterminate people, enslave people, don’t mix fabrics, don’t eat rabbits, don’t take interest on a loan (bye-bye, capitalist USA !), exclude Edomites and Ammonites from the congregation, destroy “leprous” buildings, all sorts of things. The laws in the Torah are invoked by Christians only when they fit their biases, otherwise they are ignored.​

The only Christians who try to obeserve the Torah are those Theonomists who are influenced by the late Rousas Rushdoony - they want the law of Moses to be made the law of the USA. If you want a bloodbath - support them. Because that is what would result. Killing gays may be OK - but when they start killing Catholics, people are not going to like it much. (But fear not: Catholics won’t be alone - other idolaters (the Theonomist word, not mine) will be for the high jump too.

OTOH, if you want something different from a Taliban-for-Jesus, don’t play the game these characters do.

As should be obvious, a code that suits one kind of society may be totally useless, even pernicious, for another. Catholicism is not the same kind of society as that for which the Torah was designed. The US is a world away from the kind of society the Torah was meant for. BTW, I thought Jesus was meant to be important to Christians - only if he is just another person of no great importance is the Law the same for Christians as for Jews. And if he is that insignificant, why bother with Christianity ?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Gottle of Geer: The Year of Living Biblically

 

[RedSoxFan]

The Bible says a lot of things - beat your son, stone your son, exterminate people, enslave people, don’t mix fabrics, don’t eat rabbits, don’t take interest on a loan (bye-bye, capitalist USA !), exclude Edomites and Ammonites from the congregation, destroy “leprous” buildings, all sorts of things. The laws in the Torah are invoked by Christians only when they fit their biases, otherwise they are ignored.​

The only Christians who try to obeserve the Torah are those Theonomists who are influenced by the late Rousas Rushdoony - they want the law of Moses to be made the law of the USA. If you want a bloodbath - support them. Because that is what would result. Killing gays may be OK - but when they start killing Catholics, people are not going to like it much. (But fear not: Catholics won’t be alone - other idolaters (the Theonomist word, not mine) will be for the high jump too.

OTOH, if you want something different from a Taliban-for-Jesus, don’t play the game these characters do.

As should be obvious, a code that suits one kind of society may be totally useless, even pernicious, for another. Catholicism is not the same kind of society as that for which the Torah was designed. The US is a world away from the kind of society the Torah was meant for. BTW, I thought Jesus was meant to be important to Christians - only if he is just another person of no great importance is the Law the same for Christians as for Jews. And if he is that insignificant, why bother with Christianity ?

Great post there Geer.

 

[Dream3000]

I look at it like this.

God said not to worship FALSE idols. IE the golden calf. he didn’t say you couldn’t build statues of Jesus to adorn the church.

plus, no one worships the statues… my priest told me, they’re more like pictures. the picture of your mother ISN’T your mother, so you wouldn’t turn to it for advice or money… you’d turn to your actual mother.

the photo is a memory, and a reminder, nothing more. Same goes with statues in the church. The holy family is a reminder of Christ’s birth, the ressurected christ is a reminder of our risen lord. It doesn’t mean the stone statue IS Christ, it’s just a 3D photograph.

 

[Zundrah]

I look at it like this.

God said not to worship FALSE idols. IE the golden calf. he didn’t say you couldn’t build statues of Jesus to adorn the church.

plus, no one worships the statues… my priest told me, they’re more like pictures. the picture of your mother ISN’T your mother, so you wouldn’t turn to it for advice or money… you’d turn to your actual mother.

the photo is a memory, and a reminder, nothing more. Same goes with statues in the church. The holy family is a reminder of Christ’s birth, the ressurected christ is a reminder of our risen lord. It doesn’t mean the stone statue IS Christ, it’s just a 3D photograph.

…This isn’t really true, people CAN worship these statues! It’s not the church that worships them, but individual people can…

 

[Peter29]

…This isn’t really true, people CAN worship these statues! It’s not the church that worships them, but individual people can…

And it’s the Church’s fault God gave us free will? Come on…

That’s like saying people with hands can attack other people so we should all have our hands removed.

Catholics don’t worship statues or images. Catholics do not worship statues or images.

Ask yourself this question: Should the statues of previous national leaders or other inspirational figures from the past be destroyed to stop people worshipping them?

 

[Zundrah]

And it’s the Church’s fault God gave us free will? Come on…

That’s like saying people with hands can attack other people so we should all have our hands removed.

Catholics don’t worship statues or images. Catholics do not worship statues or images.

Ask yourself this question: Should the statues of previous national leaders or other inspirational figures from the past be destroyed to stop people worshipping them?

Well, what I meant was “people” commit blasphemy by idolizing these statues, not “catholics” but individual people… Of course we should most certainly NOT remove the staues at all! The statues are fine but really, some people worry me with how much attention they give the statues; touching them, rubbing them and then rubbing them selves afterwards, kissing them, talking to them… it just seriously worries me…

 

[Peter29]

Well, what I meant was “people” commit blasphemy by idolizing these statues, not “catholics” but individual people… Of course we should most certainly NOT remove the staues at all! The statues are fine but really, some people worry me with how much attention they give the statues; touching them, rubbing them and then rubbing them selves afterwards, kissing them, talking to them… it just seriously worries me…

Oops! Sorry

Of course, people know it is wrong to worship the statues and know only to worship God. I’m not worried by it.

 

[Zundrah]

Oops! Sorry

Of course, people know it is wrong to worship the statues and know only to worship God. I’m not worried by it.

Well, if you are not worried about it, then I guess I shouldn’t worry either. Their hearts are with Christ, that is for certain, at the least!

 

[JanetF]

The key is that I don’t worship the statue. I use it as a way of remembering certain people and things, or as a prayer aid. I don’t worship the Pieta, but the Pieta reminds me of Mary’s pain upon Jesus’ death, among other things, which it turn helps me to pray more fervently and to thank Jesus for everything he has done for me. When I’m worried about something, I hold onto the crucifix that I wear around my neck while I pray.

 

[Zundrah]

The key is that I don’t worship the statue. I use it as a way of remembering certain people and things, or as a prayer aid. I don’t worship the Pieta, but the Pieta reminds me of Mary’s pain upon Jesus’ death, among other things, which it turn helps me to pray more fervently and to thank Jesus for everything he has done for me. When I’m worried about something, I hold onto the crucifix that I wear around my neck while I pray.

Amen!