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SwissGuard25
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Is it possible for a Catholic to be a Communist or a Socialist. Not that I support the two I’m just wondering what the Church’s view of the two are?
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Richard320
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CCC
**2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” **She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
bold added by me
**2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” **She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
bold added by me
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VeritasLuxMea
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I didn’t realize the Church was so demanding on politics. I mean, to what extent is it actually up to the Catholic individual to discern? If true, I think basically all Catholics must have almost the same politics: fiscally moderate, not too much left but not too much right, pro-life, anti-gay marriage, etc.
What would separate one pious Catholic from another? Only things I can think of are: what constitutes a just war? (Though that’s probably well-defined somewhere) and the death penalty.
It’s disheartening to me, as an anarchist.
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Sailor_Kenshin
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Catholicism is not for wimps.
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Dirt
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Read these, then pray.I didn’t realize the Church was so demanding on politics. I mean, to what extent is it actually up to the Catholic individual to discern? If true, I think basically all Catholics must have almost the same politics: fiscally moderate, not too much left but not too much right, pro-life, anti-gay marriage, etc.
What would separate one pious Catholic from another? Only things I can think of are: what constitutes a just war? (Though that’s probably well-defined somewhere) and the death penalty.
It’s disheartening to me, as an anarchist.
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13civ.htm
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13grcom.htm
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13apost.htm
papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10pasce.htm
papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11DIVIN.HTM
papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11QUADR.HTM
papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6develo.htm
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_30121987_sollicitudo-rei-socialis_en.html
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SwissGuard25
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Well “so demanding” on politics can be traced back to the fact of two things of the two types of Government:
1)Communism get’s rid of God.
2) Capitalism replaces God
P.S. Not anti-Gay marriage pro Traditional Marriage.
Catholics disagree with war and the death penalty.
That’s nothing to be proud of or joke about.It’s disheartening to me, as an anarchist.
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SwissGuard25
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What do you mean?
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Richard320
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Ah, there’s the rub… We are supposed to live our Faith every day, in all areas. It’s not like a change of clothes we wear only on Sunday.
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JRKH
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One must read the Catechism carefully. That should be obvious but still we need to be reminded sometimes.
Richard Quoted the Catechism and bolded a section…No argument…but let’s take a closer look at what it actually says and how that relates to the OP’s question. This requires a bit of dissection…
CCC
2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.”
Note carefully what the Church has rejected here - “totalitarian and atheistic ideologies”. It’s not “communism” that is rejected, but other ideologies that are associated with it in “modern times”. These would be the ideologies of Marx and Lenin and Mao et-al
That said, when one considers that communism" is from the same root as “community” and contained in the idea of community-communism are many facets that are very Christian sounding, it is hard to say that a person cannot be both Catholic and communist.
She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
The Church continues and reinforces this idea here - she does not condemn Capitalism, but certain aspects and ideologies associated with Capitalism.
It’s not about the -ism, so much as it is about whether one is working for the good of God and His Kingdom.
Peace
James
Richard Quoted the Catechism and bolded a section…No argument…but let’s take a closer look at what it actually says and how that relates to the OP’s question. This requires a bit of dissection…
CCC
2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.”
Note carefully what the Church has rejected here - “totalitarian and atheistic ideologies”. It’s not “communism” that is rejected, but other ideologies that are associated with it in “modern times”. These would be the ideologies of Marx and Lenin and Mao et-al
That said, when one considers that communism" is from the same root as “community” and contained in the idea of community-communism are many facets that are very Christian sounding, it is hard to say that a person cannot be both Catholic and communist.
She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
The Church continues and reinforces this idea here - she does not condemn Capitalism, but certain aspects and ideologies associated with Capitalism.
It’s not about the -ism, so much as it is about whether one is working for the good of God and His Kingdom.
Peace
James
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St_Francis
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Communism is a word coined for what we currently call communism. It is not something which had a modern form and a precious form. Altho the Church has always had some communally-oriented communities, they have never been characterized as communist because the word didn’t even exist until it was coined to describe the communism we know today.
Just because something *looks *like something else doesn’t mean they are the same thing or can be described by the same word. If people braoden the meaning of the word communism to inclide small, voluntary communities, then what will we call communism? and how will we be able to discuss it without confusion?
When you do this, you are falling right into the communists’s trap. They want people to think of communism as a nice cozy sort of thing so that they can impose it on others. Notice that the greatest number of people killed in the 1900s was not by the Nazis but by the communists of Russia and China.
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jonbhorton
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Exactly. They’re tricky. Just look at the “99% vs 1%” rubbish in the Occupy movement. Nothing more than the modern version of the Bourgeoisie vs Proletariat. It’s polarizing and outside of the spirit in which it portrays itself. It uses “useful idiots” who don’t understand the end-game of anyone smart enough to subject the idiots to its arguments and means. In the expressed intent of freeing mankind, it enslaves him and by default seeks to supplant the role of God as the authority. I sometimes wonder if God hasn’t given nations over to it since they seek to reject Him anyway. The superficial argument is sound, and mainly a ploy to inject the real gravy to otherwise nutritious meat: overthrow your masters, be your own masters: obey us, your masters.
No matter how sweet the melody, dancing with the devil is never a good thing.
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JRKH
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All good points…
My primary goal was to express to the OP, and to others who read the Catechism, that the Church rarely reject a system per-se, but will always reject those things within a system that are evil. The paragraph quoted from the CCC demonstrates that fact clearly.
I would say that if one were to expand the term “communism” to include smaller voluntary communities (communes etc.) there need not be confusion…There are already a couple of other terms out there that point to specific types of communism. One is Marxism. I’ve also heard the term Marxist/Leninist - though I’m not sure what the difference might be between the two things…
Then too - speaking of confusion, when we speak of “communism”, more often than not we are not speaking of an “economic system in which the means of production are held in common”. Instead, what is being discussed is the form of government employed by certain groups. The form of government is Totalitarianism and Dictatorship.
That said - I do agree with you that in any normal discussion “communism” means modern, totalitarian, Godless communism.
to sort out the good from the bad would require a whole new set of terms.
Peace
James
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SwissGuard25
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But guys would God approve of Capitalism?
I mean look at the American Capitalism! It’s terrible it favors the rich, Companies like Wal-Mart are making life insurance policies on their employees, and the company the benefactor! Or when Wall Street controls congress.
I mean look at the American Capitalism! It’s terrible it favors the rich, Companies like Wal-Mart are making life insurance policies on their employees, and the company the benefactor! Or when Wall Street controls congress.
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JRKH
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This too is covered in the section quoted above from the CC:
2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
Just as in Communism the Church rejects specific ideologies, so too does she reject certain ideologies in Capitalism. In both cases, what she is rejecting is not the “ism” itself, but the sins - the errors - most often associated with the particular “-ism”.
The things that you mention above are perversions. And they are the same perversions whether they exist under a capitalist system or a communist system. Primary among these perversions is greed and love of self over love of God and neighbor.
Just as a grossly simplistic example, if a nation were comprised entirely (or nearly so) of Good and Faithful followers of Christ - people who truly embraced the teachings, held them dearly in their hearts and made them central to every act of their lives - It would not matter whether the economic system was based on “everything held in common” and “no private ownership” or if it were based on “private ownership” and the ability to keep the fruits of ones labors…
In either economic system, if the overriding faith, belief and cultural character of the society was truly and purely Christian, then the society would be one of joy and plenty. No one would seek to hold on to more than they truly needed but would do all in their power to lift up their struggling neighbor etc…
So - it’s not the system that is at fault…It is the people…
Peace
James
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kama3
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Source: przk.pl/nr/historia/generalowie_i_biskupi.html (in Polish)
Poland is predominantly Catholic, so yes, 66% of communists were Catholics. Most of these would go to church every Sunday
On the other hand, some claimed that among the members of the Party there were only 20% of people who were actual communists, while the rest signed up for profits…
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kama3
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The operative word here, I believe, is atheistic. Communist regimes have a proven track record of eradicating religion. From a 1924 communist publication: marxists.org/history/international/comintern/sections/britain/periodicals/communist_review/1924/02/mason.htm
Also see Christian Communism: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism
On the other hand, arguments have been made that communism persecutes religion not because it’s atheistic, but because it is a religion itself:
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Sailor_Kenshin
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Catholicism is NOT for wimps—it’s the hardest thing I’ve ever done, getting harder day by day.
What did YOU mean, Capitalism ‘replaces’ God?
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JRKH
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Agreed. Any discussion of the socio/economic implementation of the principle of “common ownership” - Marxist communism - leads directly to an attack on the Church. Of course communism isn’t alone in this. From the “Enlightenment” of the French revolution to the Fascism of Hitler to the secular humanism of our own Democratic/Capitalist countries, The Church has been under attack.
Communism is not unique in this AND, I believe, hatred of theism is not an essential part of a communist economic system. In fact, it works against it.
Can’t say that I would argue that one way or another.
Peace
James
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VeritasLuxMea
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I do!
However, I think the majority here would disagree with you on that. Personally, though I think war and the death penalty are wrong, I’m not nearly so deluded as to claim that they don’t have the RIGHT to disagree with me! If there’s any joke here, it’s that
Sure it is, since I can reject the initiation of the use of force in all forms, I am, as I understand it, following in Christ’s mission of peace. Others disagree. By my understanding, before we interacted, I believed that this was an issue of conscience… to be discussed and debated among ourselves.
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tafan
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It is extremely easy to say that one cannot be both Catholic and communist. The ideaologies of Max, Lenin, Mau et-all are what define communism. Only using analysis of the etymology of the word communism as the basis for your argument is absurd in its over simplicity.
But if one does this, one is being intellectually dishonest because the term communism is now well understood to be the ideologies of Max, Lenin, Mao, et al.
One would also be masking the original question. There is little to none similarity between modern day communism and smaller voluntary communities (beyond etymology) Smaller voluntary communities own property in common, not by the state. Smaller voluntary communities do not inject atheism as a forced dogma. Smaller voluntary communities do not adhere to a historical ideology of the progress of man to a utopia.
JRKN:
This is also a misleading interpretation of the CCC paragraph. The church rejects the ideologies in their totality which are associated with communism. The church only refuses to accept individualism and the supremacy of the market in the practise of capitalism.
There is a BIG difference.
JRKN:
Read Rerun Novarum by Pope Leo XIII and you would find he disagrees with you. The private ownership of property is essential to basic human dignity. Perhaps a better way of expressing it is the Church would say that your simplistic example woud be impossible in a fallen world. But that is my thought, not Pope Leo XIII’s.
This statement illustrates a misunderstanding of Communist ideology. Communist regimes have a proven track record of eradicating religion because atheist is an essential part of their ideaology. It is not just an added feature that they could easily disgard.
JNRK:
Have you read any of Marx’s or Lenin’s writings?
There are a lot of misunderstandings on this thread, but they are common in todays world. Communism, as many liberals will say, was not just an economic system that didn’t work. Communism did not just have an added feature of atheism. Communism, as we witnessed implemented by Lenin, Stalin, or Mao, was NOT an aberation of Marx’s original ideals. There is very little in the soviet regime which would have surprised Marx. The only two things are that the dictatorship of the proletariat came into being in a economy condition he did not see likely and the dictatorship of the proletariat may have lasted longer than he would have predicted. Although this part is not clear, as the Soviet state certainly made progress in the industrialization and modernization of Russia (at great human cost), and I do not know if he ever said how long this step in human evolution would last. But there would have been no surprices as to the details of what was done.
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