Catholic condom ban helping AIDS

[Burdock]

Here we go again . what about my other comments. Its obvious that a lot of catholics use contraception otherwise theu would have a lot more children. Go forth and multiply does not mean that birth control is wrong nor is oman spilling his seed.

 

[mlchance]

Its obvious that a lot of catholics use contraception…

So?

Go forth and multiply does not mean that birth control is wrong nor is oman spilling his seed.

According to you. OTOH, the Church, based on Scripture and natural law, says that contraception is wrong. Who is more credible?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Burdock]

I still cant see how you can interpret those bible passages to mean that contraception is wrong. Also all you can reply to my comment about catholics using contraception is so what kind of answer is that?

 

[beckers]

Here we go again . what about my other comments. Its obvious that a lot of catholics use contraception otherwise theu would have a lot more children. Go forth and multiply does not mean that birth control is wrong nor is oman spilling his seed.

Not true. Even if all conditions are perfect someone may still not conceive or they may have medical reason why they can’t get pregnant. (I suggest you stumble into the family life section of this forum and see the women who struggle with trying to get pregnant) From the outside you have no idea why someone is not pregnant so don’t assume its because of contraception either. Plenty of people get pregnant while on methods of birth control. The only 100% way of not getting pregnant is to not have sex. Even those couples who pratice NFP know that there is a possiblity that God if he so chose could bless you with a child even outside the time-frame of conception.

 

[9Choirs]

thanks for your reply. these arguments seem to just go round in circles . I realise condoms can break or split but unless they do they do offer protection. i am not saying that people should have sex whenever they like with whoever they want. Also yet again you have not answered my other comments. A lot of catholics do use contraception otherwise they would have more than 2 or3 children i still do not believe that god forbids contraception.

Burdock,
Firstly, I must begin by saying that I’m overjoyed that you’re interested in Catholicism even if you’re not committed to joining the club. But onto your statements: You are correct that the majority of people who describe themselves as Catholic (in America) do use contraception. From my research, the statistics for Catholics using contraception in America range from 90% to 97%.

That being said, the Church is not defined from downwards -upwards but upwards- downwards. What I’m trying to articulate is, that unlike Protestant Churches, the Church is not a democracy and her teachings are not defined by the behaviour of her members but by the Magisterium, sacred tradition and the Bible.

The sinful behaviour of Catholics does not give licence to others to do away with the truth that Jesus taught and is teaching through the Church. Such Catholics who do commit this grave sin are simply a poor representative of the Church’s teaching on human sexuality and are not in any way reflective on the true nature of the Church

 

[Burdock]

I really struggle with this topic i guess i will have to study more about this. At the moment i attend a united reformed church i am happy there but still have this pull to the catholic church i pray the rosary and use catholic bible notes i read them every day using my catholic answer bible. I may attend the occasional mass at an anglo catholic church. Also i want to go to a catholic mass although i realise i will not be able to recieve the host. Please pray for me a friend of mine who isnt catholic has said that i must be being called to the catholic faith for a reason.

 

[jmcrae]

I really struggle with this topic i guess i will have to study more about this. At the moment i attend a united reformed church i am happy there but still have this pull to the catholic church i pray the rosary and use catholic bible notes i read them every day using my catholic answer bible. I may attend the occasional mass at an anglo catholic church. Also i want to go to a catholic mass although i realise i will not be able to recieve the host. Please pray for me a friend of mine who isnt catholic has said that i must be being called to the catholic faith for a reason.

I think the question you need to ask is, “Could it be possible for God ever to create any human being by accident?”

The use of contraception while thinking that contraception is okay seems to signify a belief that God could create human beings who aren’t supposed to exist, and that we have a duty to help God to not create these accidental people.

If we believe, however, that every human being is put on this earth by God for a special purpose in His plan for the world (and if we believe this of ourselves, then we also have to believe it of everyone else, too, since we aren’t “special” in any way except for that) then we have to believe that there is no way God is ever going to create anybody by accident - which means that to frustrate God’s purpose in creating a human being by means of our marriage is to actually interfere with God’s plan for the world.

This is the very reason why using contraception is considered to be such a serious sin.

 

[mlchance]

I still cant see how you can interpret those bible passages to mean that contraception is wrong.

That is a problem with your vision, not with the Church’s teaching.

Also all you can reply to my comment about catholics using contraception is so what kind of answer is that?

The kind that such an irrelevant observation merits? So what if many Catholics engage in a particular sort of sinful activity? Does their engagement change the nature of the sinful activity?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[9Choirs]

I really struggle with this topic i guess i will have to study more about this. At the moment i attend a united reformed church i am happy there but still have this pull to the catholic church i pray the rosary and use catholic bible notes i read them every day using my catholic answer bible. I may attend the occasional mass at an anglo catholic church. Also i want to go to a catholic mass although i realise i will not be able to recieve the host. Please pray for me a friend of mine who isnt catholic has said that i must be being called to the catholic faith for a reason.

Burdock,

I agree that A LOT of study is nee for you to understand the prohibition of contraception and the benefits of Natural Family Planning , in particular as such values are antithetical to the ‘values’ that secular society promotes. However, please don’t write it off until you study the topic in depth and understand the reasoning behind it. I’m a practicing Catholic who although believes the use of contraception works to the detriment of society, hasn’t digested the intricate details in this particular teaching. But no need to worry, there are a plethora of very knowledgeable people who have contributed much (name removed by moderator)ut on this topic on many threads already.

Might I also add that untill the early part of last century did protestant Churches allow the use of contraception. From a purely secular standpoint, you ought to know that contraception use facilitates the obtainment of divorces just as it does facilitate abortion (which some forms of contraception intrinsically are). There are numerous non religious arguments to prohibit its use.

As for you pull to the Catholic Church, that’s no surprise. The Church is the one true Church which can trace her origin to Jesus, whereas your Church is one of the 33, 000 man produced Christian denominations, so it is only natural that you’d be pulled to her.

I will say a decade of the Rosary for you and hopefully you’ll do the same for me as I am in dire need of it at this precise moment in my life.

Ave Maria

 

[beckers]

I really struggle with this topic i guess i will have to study more about this. At the moment i attend a united reformed church i am happy there but still have this pull to the catholic church i pray the rosary and use catholic bible notes i read them every day using my catholic answer bible. I may attend the occasional mass at an anglo catholic church. Also i want to go to a catholic mass although i realise i will not be able to recieve the host. Please pray for me a friend of mine who isnt catholic has said that i must be being called to the catholic faith for a reason.

Study Study!!!

I suggest reading this it was eye opening and let me down many other paths of understand the churches position…

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/p...p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html****** ******

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****** Humanee-Vitae******

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Faithfulness to God’s Design******
13. Men rightly observe that a conjugal act imposed on one’s partner without regard to his or her condition or personal and reasonable wishes in the matter, is no true act of love, and therefore offends the moral order in its particular application to the intimate relationship of husband and wife. If they further reflect, they must also recognize that an act of mutual love which impairs the capacity to transmit life which God the Creator, through specific laws, has built into it, frustrates His design which constitutes the norm of marriage, and contradicts the will of the Author of life. Hence to use this divine gift while depriving it, even if only partially, of its meaning and purpose, is equally repugnant to the nature of man and of woman, and is consequently in opposition to the plan of God and His holy will. But to experience the gift of married love while respecting the laws of conception is to acknowledge that one is not the master of the sources of life but rather the minister of the design established by the Creator. Just as man does not have unlimited dominion over his body in general, so also, and with more particular reason, he has no such dominion over his specifically sexual faculties, for these are concerned by their very nature with the generation of life, of which God is the source. “Human life is sacred—all men must recognize that fact,” Our predecessor Pope John XXIII recalled. “From its very inception it reveals the creating hand of God.” (13)

Unlawful Birth Control Methods
14. Therefore We base Our words on the first principles of a human and Christian doctrine of marriage when We are obliged once more to declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun and, above all, all direct abortion, even for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as lawful means of regulating the number of children. (14) Equally to be condemned, as the magisterium of the Church has affirmed on many occasions, is direct sterilization, whether of the man or of the woman, whether permanent or temporary. (15)
Similarly excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means. (16)
Neither is it valid to argue, as a justification for sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive, that a lesser evil is to be preferred to a greater one, or that such intercourse would merge with procreative acts of past and future to form a single entity, and so be qualified by exactly the same moral goodness as these. Though it is true that sometimes it is lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good," it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it (18)—in other words, to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general. Consequently, it is a serious error to think that a whole married life of otherwise normal relations can justify sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive and so intrinsically wrong.

 

[Roy5]

**QUOTE=jmcrae;3760888]I think the question you need to ask is, “Could it be possible for God ever to create any human being by accident?”

If we believe, however, that every human being is put on this earth by God for a special purpose in His plan for the world (and if we believe this of ourselves, then we also have to believe it of everyone else, too, since we aren’t “special” in any way except for that) then we have to believe that there is no way God is ever going to create anybody by accident - which means that to frustrate God’s purpose in creating a human being by means of our marriage is to actually interfere with God’s plan for the world. **

 Hm! I presume God put Hitler, Stalin, Attila the Hun and such for a special purpose. He must have also created little babies who arrive on earth seriously deformed physically or severely limited mentally. Sorry, I can't accept that. I can't blame God for such tragedies. If so, he's hardly a god worthy of worship.

 But as to artificial contraception. Is that any different, really, from interfering with nature by taking pills, vaccines, operations, etc.? I can't believe for a moment that God intends for most families to have 10-12 or more children as years ago. You may answer: abstain from sex. Any normal, reasonable married couple knows that this is foolishness, contrary to marital closeness, even contrary "to have and to hold" in the vows. A happy sexual relationship is a major glue that holds marriages together and helps provide children with loving parents and their example. Too many children, especially in today's world, simply are too costly to give them important educational and other benefits. It also can burden women with excessive child-bearing and the physical and other consequences that can result.  

  I confess to also being annoyed that many Catholics can get so pious when it comes to birth control but don't show the same concern when it comes to massive murder of fellow human beings in war.

  The Church's stand against abortion would be much more effective if it didn't also condemn artifical birth control.

 

[Burdock]

9choirs thankyou for your reply. your reply has been the only one that hasnt been sarcastic. Thankyou for offering to say a decade of the rosary for me i will also do the same for you God bless.

 

[Burdock]

I agree i just cant get my head round this issue. i feel drawn to the catholic church but this contraception lark is a stumbling block for me.

 

[jmcrae]

jmcrae;3760888:

I think the question you need to ask is, “Could it be possible for God ever to create any human being by accident?”

If we believe, however, that every human being is put on this earth by God for a special purpose in His plan for the world (and if we believe this of ourselves, then we also have to believe it of everyone else, too, since we aren’t “special” in any way except

for that) then we have to believe that there is no way God is ever going to create anybody by accident - which means that to frustrate God’s purpose in creating a human being by means of our marriage is to actually interfere with God’s plan for the world.

 Hm! I presume God put Hitler, Stalin, Attila the Hun and such for a special purpose.

Yes, He did, and had they fulfilled it, they would have been great Saints. (As a matter of fact, if Hitler had died before the start of World War II, he would have been remembered as a hero and patriot of Germany, instead of the greatest mass murderer of all time.)

He must have also created little babies who arrive on earth seriously deformed physically or severely limited mentally. Sorry, I can’t accept that. I can’t blame God for such tragedies. If so, he’s hardly a god worthy of worship.

We live in a broken world, and God is not the one who broke it. We break it further, every time we commit sin.

 But as to artificial contraception. Is that any different, really, from interfering with nature by taking pills, vaccines, operations, etc.?

Yes, it’s very different. These other medicines have healing properties; the Pill, by contrast, poisons the body by sickening the reproductive organs, and causing them to fail.

I can’t believe for a moment that God intends for most families to have 10-12 or more children as years ago.

“Most families” other than on farms didn’t have so many kids, even years ago. My great grandmother was an only child, for example, and it was common for city-dwellers to have very few children (3-4), even before birth control was allowed. I suspect that the reasons had to do as much with the stresses of city life as with any planned program of abstinence.

  I confess to also being annoyed that many Catholics can get so pious when it comes to birth control but don't show the same concern when it comes to massive murder of fellow human beings in war.

I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.

The Church’s stand against abortion would be much more effective if it didn’t also condemn artifical birth control.

Actually, abortion came about because of the existence of artificial birth control - because if you use artificial birth control and it fails, you have to have abortion as your back-up plan. We did not have near the demand for abortion before the legalization of birth control as we have had since that time.

 

[CapaxDei]

And in real life this does not happen. You can encourage all you want but it is a pipe dream to think that encouraging this alone will do it.

Just the other day you were looking forward to the day (that will never come) when the Church will approve of so-called same-sex “marriages.”

Please, don’t lecture us about “pipe dreams.”

 

[9Choirs]

9choirs thankyou for your reply. your reply has been the only one that hasnt been sarcastic. Thankyou for offering to say a decade of the rosary for me i will also do the same for you God bless.

Thank you so much Burdock,

You’re literally the first person I’ve asked to pray for me in my entire life. Looks like my pride got in the way by making me believe I didn’t anyone else’s help.

Please also don’t take any sarcastic responses to heart. Often the Church’s teaching on contraception is attacked so I think some may be a bit defensive on this subject.

As for the contraception issue, I suggest you find as many threads on this board regarding it and read through it. Utilising the search button can be very helpful.

One of the most common arguments against contraception is that contraception separates the act of sex from its primary purpose, procreation. That is not to say that every time a husband and wife make love they should plan to conceive children but that the act itself must be open to procreation.

You must note as well that some contraception (such as the pill) are in fact abortifacients and therefore end the lives of already conceived children. As Catholics, such contraception defies our ethos on the sanctity of each and every life, because as regardless of the gestation of the person their dignity and value is equal to ours… To be pro life and to be in support of contraceptives which are in fact aborifacients is an oxymoron. The title ‘Pro life’ encompasses the protection of all life beginning from conception ending at natural death.

Much of what the Church teaches is hard to digest when approached from a purely secular standpoint. Gods world is not our world so therefore it takes a lot of prayer (and I mean A LOT of prayer) and study to gain a glimpse into why he has implemented such laws i.e moral law

As a side note, please try and find a good patient Orthodox priest who has the time to assist you individually with the many questions I guess you’re dying to have answered. I’ve been blessed with a good one so hopefully you’ll find one too.

Ave Maria

 

[hasikelee]

The church can not endorse the use of condoms to prevent STDs because it would be a lie for them to do so. Condoms do not prevent the incidence of STDs, only behavior modification will.

The first case of HIV was reported in both the Philippines and Thailand in 1984, and by 1987, Thailand had 112 cases of AIDS, and the Philippines had 135 cases. Thailand enacted a “100% Condom Use Program” in 1991. All brothels were required to have supplies of condoms, and condom vending machines were installed in all supermarkets, bars, restaurants, and other public gathering places. The program was widely accepted and implemented by the people of Thailand. Two years later the Philippines, working with the Catholic Bishops Conference of the Philippines (CBCP) established the program AIDS-free Philippines, which did not allow for condom use. By 2003, the infection rate in the two countries were as follows:

Adults and children with HIV
Thailand 570,000 Philippines 9,000
AIDS deaths
Thailand 58,000 Philippines 500
Population
Thailand 62,833,000 Philippines 79,999,000
HIV Infection Rates Per Million
Thailand 9,072 Philippines 113

Far more lives were saved in the Philippines through behavior modification in keeping with the standards of the Catholic church than were saved with the promotion of condoms in Thailand. Condom use encourages behavior that leads to STD infections, that’s the bottom line. Telling people to use condoms in lieu of stopping risky behaviors is like letting children play on railroad tracks. Sooner or later, they’re gonna get hit by a train.

Compare the Philippine infection rate of 113 per million to the US infection rate (as of 2006) of 3,900 per million. For all our hundreds of thousands of condoms and all our wonderful medical technology, the Philippines is containing the spread of the disease far better than we are.

The effectivity rates advertised on condoms are based on laboratory results, not real life. The truth is that condoms are extremely easy to mis-use. One of the easiest ways to mis-use one is to first put it on upside down, realize your mistake, and turn it over to put it on correctly. Well, that leaves pre-ejaculate seminal fluid on the wrong side of the condom!

The church simply can not endorse condom use because it is not a fail-safe option.

The CDC has already come to its conclusion, too.

Lol, how messed up is a world where the CDC and the Church agree on something related to sex?

 

[9Choirs]

The CDC has already come to its conclusion, too.

Lol, how messed up is a world where the CDC and the Church agree on something related to sex?

Hasikelee,

Not that I doubt the truthfulness of this statement, but can you direct me to a link from the CDC verifying this?

Thank you

Ave Maria

 

[Dtmccameron]

And there are lots of those who choose not to. The ABC is Abistance, Be Faithful, and Condoms. It is just one tool and the last resort if it will happen. I have brought up that you can confess to the acts and be forgiven but not get rid of the HIV virus. People should be well informed on the best protection so a night of bad judgment does not turn into a death sentence. We need to look out for those who fall through the cracks here and do the best for them.

Pardon me, but aren’t the wages of sin death?

You’ve been preaching “pro-life” all the while, yet it seems to me, were anyone to live as you’ve said, their souls would be dead!!!

What does it gain them to live this instant, this twinkling of an eye, when they are robbed of all eternity?

I’d leap at the chance to leave this life, and live forever in my Father’s house. What is the sting of death when weighed against the promise of eternal life?

I’ve always thought the Church, not to be after lives, but souls. Just as God, just as Satan.

Which reminds me; are you certain who’s words you are speaking?

 

[childofmary1143]

Pardon me, but aren’t the wages of sin death?

You’ve been preaching “pro-life” all the while, yet it seems to me, were anyone to live as you’ve said, their souls would be dead!!!

What does it gain them to live this instant, this twinkling of an eye, when they are robbed of all eternity?

I’d leap at the chance to leave this life, and live forever in my Father’s house. What is the sting of death when weighed against the promise of eternal life?

I’ve always thought the Church, not to be after lives, but souls. Just as God, just as Satan.

Which reminds me; are you certain who’s words you are speaking?

New Ulm is unreachable with Catholic theology. He won’t listen to it no matter how convincingly its presented. What I would like to ask is why he is allowed to disseminate his misrepresentations of the faith while others are having their membership revoked?