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sedonaman
Guest
Forgive me for not abstaining from chocolate while waiting for an answer to this question that has had me puzzled for some time now. I just know that going without chocolate that long will just kill me.
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GraceDK
Guest
And that my friend, is why we keep asking.
For its logical that the pre-existing uncorrupted Bible that Islam says has once existed never did exist. There is only what we have today, and thats beautiful and holy and good.
What bugs me somewhat about Islam is even more the notion that Almighty God would need three attempts before He could guard His Revelation. … Not likely
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wina
Guest
Well, the only way I can do is I will pray for you Irish. I live in the country which muslims are the majority. But I will never convert to it because I’m proud of being catholic. Although it’s very hard sometime when you live in the country like mine.
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GraceDK
Guest
God bless you Wina. May He give you strength and perseverence and peace to testify to His Love wherever you are.
I met a wonderful woman in the Holy Land last year. She was indonesian. She was a convert from Islam to Christinity… She was an inspiration to us all. - Always happy and cheerful and unjugemental.
Peace
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planten
Guest
Selene, By OT I always mean the bibleOT, i.e. the Old Testament. sedonaman must have played a joke on you.Hi Sedonaman,
Oh, is that what O.T. stands for? And all this time, I thought it meant Old Testament.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
I’ve been trying to find a way past the idea that religion makes peaceful coexistence among different peoples impossible. Here in the US, until 9/11 that is, there was peaceful coexistence between Muslims and Christians. However, there was still an undertone of zealotry on both sides that was bound to inflame at some point.
Obviously I don’t believe any of the supernatural events described in the bible ever occurred. However, I’ve discovered from my time here that even atheists can get drawn into the cross fire of this conflict, since we’re very apprehensive of religious extremism (and most of us believe theocracy is the natural result of religion left unchecked). So we take on the religious establishment because we view it as a defensive measure; and of course we’re demonized for it. Of course we don’t have the resources the religious establishment has. We don’t have televangelists, EWTN, a network of thousands of churches, and we don’t receive billions of dollars in donations to fuel a public relations campaign. The funny thing is religious organizations has its adherents convinced that the world is the enemy and they’re somehow the underdog … when objectively speaking reality is just the opposite of their rhetoric.
Most reasonable theists know that the events described in the early chapters of Genesis (which all Abrahamic religions view as divine scripture) aren’t literally true. So I wonder why theists don’t ask themselves what else is not literally true? In other words how is the idea that god is loving and perfectly holy in character consistent with his people running around inflaming intolerance and hatred among different peoples? I suppose it becomes a matter of which parts of the bible do you believe are literal revelation and which parts are not amenable to human understanding at this point in our development?
There needs to be a theological basis for tolerance, because most people are not going to abandon their religion (and neither Muslims or Christians will succeed in stamping out the other). There is indication in the Koran that “people of the book” (adherents to other Abrahamic religions) are or can be saved (and therefore should not be the target of hatred). Moreover, Christian doctrine demands tolerance of all people (and cannot be reasonably aligned with the idea of a compulsive theocracy). Additionally, Muhammad himself called the gospels the word of god (although I don’t think he viewed the epistles of Paul, James, or John in the same way).
There’s enough there to form a theological basis for tolerance; between people of different religions (and between theists and non-theists). The problem is the most vocal people for whatever reason tend to be the most unstable.
Obviously I don’t believe any of the supernatural events described in the bible ever occurred. However, I’ve discovered from my time here that even atheists can get drawn into the cross fire of this conflict, since we’re very apprehensive of religious extremism (and most of us believe theocracy is the natural result of religion left unchecked). So we take on the religious establishment because we view it as a defensive measure; and of course we’re demonized for it. Of course we don’t have the resources the religious establishment has. We don’t have televangelists, EWTN, a network of thousands of churches, and we don’t receive billions of dollars in donations to fuel a public relations campaign. The funny thing is religious organizations has its adherents convinced that the world is the enemy and they’re somehow the underdog … when objectively speaking reality is just the opposite of their rhetoric.
Most reasonable theists know that the events described in the early chapters of Genesis (which all Abrahamic religions view as divine scripture) aren’t literally true. So I wonder why theists don’t ask themselves what else is not literally true? In other words how is the idea that god is loving and perfectly holy in character consistent with his people running around inflaming intolerance and hatred among different peoples? I suppose it becomes a matter of which parts of the bible do you believe are literal revelation and which parts are not amenable to human understanding at this point in our development?
There needs to be a theological basis for tolerance, because most people are not going to abandon their religion (and neither Muslims or Christians will succeed in stamping out the other). There is indication in the Koran that “people of the book” (adherents to other Abrahamic religions) are or can be saved (and therefore should not be the target of hatred). Moreover, Christian doctrine demands tolerance of all people (and cannot be reasonably aligned with the idea of a compulsive theocracy). Additionally, Muhammad himself called the gospels the word of god (although I don’t think he viewed the epistles of Paul, James, or John in the same way).
There’s enough there to form a theological basis for tolerance; between people of different religions (and between theists and non-theists). The problem is the most vocal people for whatever reason tend to be the most unstable.
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sedonaman
Guest
There seems to be an innate tendency of the human psyche not to trust people who are different. Much can be said about this, and I tried to summarize my thoughts, but it became difficult. Let’s just say that it’s because people are no damned good. Perhaps this is why you are now a “NOTHING”.
Then consider this observation by a former dhimmi:
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Cecilianus
Guest
A theological basis for tolerance: How about human dignity, as taught by Pope John Paul II?
Because we believe in God, not in god. We are only “his people” precisely because we are sinners; religion is based on - rather than refuted by - the idea that we are wicked. You yourself stated that Christian doctrine teaches that we must be tolerant - you forget who it is that this doctrine is being taught to: the Christians. If we knew it already we wouldn’t need to be reminded, and the same holds true for all of the Church’s moral teachings.
This is, furthermore, precisely the way in which religion is the “underdog” - not in some sort of sociological conflict between people who call themselves religious and those who call themselves atheists, but rather between saints and sin. And while (most) Catholics try to be saints, very few of us actually are.
Taking the Bible literally? I still do - I take everything in the sense in which the author originally interpreted it. Genesis has the literary form of a creation poem, and has been interpreted as such throughout the history of the Church. The Protestant Reformers were the first to interpret it literalistically; Aquinas and the medieval Schoolmen took it as allegorical so they could reconcile it with the (Aristotelian) science of their time. The Church Fathers understood the Creation of the world in terms of the Platonic myth, therefore likewise interpreting Genesis allegorically.
Seven-day Creationism is a Protestant invention. It was Luther who (using the genealogies recorded in the Old Testament) estimated the date of Creation to be roughly 4000 B.C., and when Kepler dated Christ’s birth to four years earlier in order to coincide with a solar eclipse, the Protestant Archbishop Ussher concluded that it must have occurred in 4004 B.C. (Luther’s date, of course, had only one significant digit, and an error of plus or minus about 500 years, which Ussher overlooked - a ridiculous error which we correct among children in elementary school.)
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wina
Guest
Thanks Grace, God bless you tooGod bless you Wina. May He give you strength and perseverence and peace to testify to His Love wherever you are.
I met a wonderful woman in the Holy Land last year. She was indonesian. She was a convert from Islam to Christinity… She was an inspiration to us all. - Always happy and cheerful and unjugemental.
Peace
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Steven_John
Guest
Irish dude,
I am an Aussie
My ancestors are irish I am an Aussie
My up bringing was Catholic
I have many nice Islamic friends and know a little about Islamic religion.
if you want some un bias sharing pm me
Bless ya, pray well and stay well
I am an Aussie
My ancestors are irish I am an Aussie
My up bringing was Catholic
I have many nice Islamic friends and know a little about Islamic religion.
if you want some un bias sharing pm me
Bless ya, pray well and stay well
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Could you have been trying too hard with the Catholicism ? Muslims often put Catholics to shame - the piety of those who follow other religions has attracted the notice of Christian missionaries more than once. The question you have to decide - or one of them - is, should that consideration be signficant for you in making your decision ?
I hope that is some help to you
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seraphime2008
Guest
Sorry…just noticing that u’re new here
I haven’t been able to guess what religon u profess
Can u describe what u mean by aspiring submitter to one true God?
Thanks
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wwolverine
Guest
In the innitial stages of the Holy Bible, we come across the first two people ie Adam and Eve, who were given everything under the sun to enjoy their lives, but were told only not to eat a fruit of one particular tree. They lived happily and God even spoke to them, until such a time that satan came and tempted them, and how could these people who spoke to God directily, enjoyed everything they could fall for such a temptation? What you feel is good can also be the temptation for you.
I pray, you resist the temptation of Quran, as its the book which does not accept the divinity of Jesus, His crucifiction and His death, but say God was playing tricks and God is fake as He replaced someone else on the cross and hypnotized everyone present into believing that the person was God.
Lastly, Muslims believe Jesus as a prophet, so why would God sent two prophets at the same time to the same tribe, ie John the Baptist, and Jesus?
My prayers for you.
I pray, you resist the temptation of Quran, as its the book which does not accept the divinity of Jesus, His crucifiction and His death, but say God was playing tricks and God is fake as He replaced someone else on the cross and hypnotized everyone present into believing that the person was God.
Lastly, Muslims believe Jesus as a prophet, so why would God sent two prophets at the same time to the same tribe, ie John the Baptist, and Jesus?
My prayers for you.
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larry0226
Guest
Beyond me what the attraction to Islam would be…a “religion” that preaches hate and allows for the infidels (read any and all non-Muslims) can be killed…things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm.
In Africa, the Muslims cannot get along with the Christians and the animists. In Asia, the Muslims cannot get along with the Jews, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists (Thailand). No, I won’t go on.
Except for this: recall the Pope’s Regensburg address a couple of years ago. What did we see??!! Muslims all over the world violently protesting and going on rampages and killing to protest being called violent. A fiction writer could not have come up with that one.
In Africa, the Muslims cannot get along with the Christians and the animists. In Asia, the Muslims cannot get along with the Jews, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists (Thailand). No, I won’t go on.
Except for this: recall the Pope’s Regensburg address a couple of years ago. What did we see??!! Muslims all over the world violently protesting and going on rampages and killing to protest being called violent. A fiction writer could not have come up with that one.
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sedonaman
Guest
Have you considered that the world might be out to “get” Islam?
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larry0226
Guest
Hey, as a matter of self defense (a basic human right) and survival, you may be right.
A very disproprtionate share of the world’s conflicts involve Muslims, and when one studies these conflicts and their historical antecedents, Muslim behavior does not come off favorably.
I am not preaching hate, merely condemning the hate and the violence that Muslims perpetrate routinely the world over.
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Hadi
Guest
Can you give some practical actions to stop what you mention ?
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larry0226
Guest
Hadi,
That is the question! I wish I had a good, constructive suggestion.
If Muslims could ever accept the fact that spreading the religion through violence may have worked in the Middle Ages but it is not workable now, perhaps the violence could be reduced. I don’t know. This is an issue that does deeply trouble me. I am not saying that spreading the religion through violence in the early centuries of Islam was right. It worked for them, because the Byzantines and Persians had worn each other out by the time Islam stormed out of the Arabian peninsula.
Recently, I finished a book on Indian history and was greatly saddened by all the art, sculpture and architecture that was destroyed in northern India by the Moghuls in the 1500s and 1600s. Being intolerant of other religions, the Muslim conquerors not only killed many Hindus, they also destroyed much of the cultural heritage of northern India by destroying its temples and religious art. And the Taliban blew up the Buddhas carved in the mountain sides in Afghanistan in recent times.
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Contarini
Guest
Of course, plenty of Muslims say just this. Indeed, some of them even say that the medieval conquests were wrong, and many (and many non-Muslim scholars as well) point out that those conquests cannot simply be described as “spreading the religion through violence.”
But you don’t care to listen to these voices, do you? You hear only what suits your prejudices.
Edwin
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Cecilianus
Guest
Islam is a complex phenomenon with much more than the violence that we see in the news. What is attractive about it? The Sufi saints, the noble simplicity, the humbling act of bowing down to God five times a day, the poetry of Rumi, the Ninety-Nine Beautiful Names, the wisdom of the ahadith, the clarity and illumination of Islamic philosophy, the practice of dhikr, the traditional way of life and dress, the art and architecture, the mythopoeic imagination of Suhrawardi - with an ontological basis, the primacy of Beauty as a theological category (the beauty of the soul of the Prophet), their love for the Blessed Virgin Mary (Sayyidna Maryam, or “Our Lady Mary”), in short, everything that you are either ignoring or simply unaware of. Even the violence springs from zeal - they actually have something they believe in and are willing to fight for. I find that attractive, even if they are misplacing the object for their zeal. If we have utterly lost the crusading spirit, then it is we who have grown decrepit. Even during the Spanish Reconquista, Catholics were singing hymns about miracles Our Lady performed - on behalf of pious Muslims who prayed to her.
Fundamentalist Islam is a 20th-century phenomenon, by the way. Traditionally, “people of the Book” - Christians, Jews, and Mandaean Gnostics (a few hundred thousand left over from ancient times still, in Iraq) - were protected though kept in a humiliating state. Your claim that any and all non-Christians could be killed is simply wrong, except for a few deviant sects whose origin lies in Western totalitarianism, not in real Islam.
Pope Pius XII once said that few things comforted him more than the thought that so many people bowed down to God five times a day. As Christians we should do no less. We have something that no Muslim (except for the Sufis) can ever hope for - the divinizing grace of our God, “Lover of Man”.
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