Catholic Considering Islam

[Cecilianus]

Trying to go off tangent to muddle the discussion and protect Islam, eh Cecilanus?

Even if there’s not a single coherent version of Islam (BTW, I NEVER claimed such a thing!), what do you propose to do with regards to those teachings/people that do validate their terrorists claims by pointing out to the Koran/Sunnah/Hadiths?

For example, ALL schools of Sunni jurisprudence plus renowned exegetes and scholars do teach ( based on the Koran/Sunnah/Hadiths) that all people who leave Islam MUST be put to death. So, in your opinion, what should one do about those teachings/people?

And before you bring up again useless sentimentalist stuff such as “islam has aspects that are beautiful”, let me remind you that the issue is not whether islam has “beautiful aspects”. The issue at hand is that islamofasicsts point out to the Koran/Hadits/Sunna to claim legitimacy and back up their terrorist agenda. So spare me the crocodile tears, please?

PS: I’d appreciate if you could give a very concise answer to the very concise question I am posing to you.

If you go back to the beginning of the thread, you will see that whether Islam is attractive is in fact the issue at hand. We got off on this long tangent when people responded to IrishDude45’s request for help by telling him how evil he is and Islam is. Regarding your issue at hand (the islamofascists’ use of the Koran, ahadith, and sunna), I would ask them why the first thirteen of the fourteen centuries of Islam never came to the conclusions they did, and then I would hope that my government would protect me from them.

What would I do about the fact that apostasy from Islam is punished by death? Try to convert as many Muslims as possible to Christianity so that nobody will be left to enforce that law. Encourage secularized states like Turkey. And, most importantly, encourage Sufism. Al-Hallaj offered up his life on behalf of the Christians who were being persecuted - this is what he meant by when he wrote “I go to die in the confession of the Cross” (quoted somewhere in the first half of volume 1 of Fr. Massignon’s study). If Muslims become saints - whether through the means God provided in the Church or through the back door of Sufism, so to speak - we will not have islamofascists.

So my “very concise” answer is: Convert them.

 

[Steven_John]

If you go back to the beginning of the thread, you will see that whether Islam is attractive is in fact the issue at hand

wow i read it differently i thought it was about Irish dude that he found Islam attractive.

But you see it as about you, your opinion of whether Islam is attractive.

Love ya but if you say we are going back to the thread we should.

Considering Irish Dude has gone it may be ok to say what i really want to focus on is…

 

[Steven_John]

Just look at their god Allah.

Forgive my post 261, i had not read your signature.

You are wrong, you are living a lie.

It is against the Law of YHWH to do this.

Turn from this evil way be sorry and believe that you can be saved

 

[Cecilianus]

wow i read it differently i thought it was about Irish dude that he found Islam attractive.

So the obvious thing to talk about is why is Islam attractive, for what reasons, what is the cause of the beauty of Islam, and where can we find that beauty to its fullest, or where we can find the plenitude of that beauty expressed in perfect coherence and consistency… to which I answer, the Catholic Church.

(Oh wait… I forgot. I’m a secret Muslim trying to infiltrate and take over America. I wasn’t going that direction after all.)

 

[djeter]

Just an observation – you seem drawn to the practices of Islam. Depending on the RCIA program, the religious paths and practices of Catholicism can be obscured. I found them in my second year of conversion and never heard them mentioned in RCIA or in any of the seminary courses I took.

A reflection on this here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/06/22/called-to-holiness/

In Christ,

dj

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

And that idealized Mohammed is the conqueror. Just look at their god Allah. The God of the Bible is great because he is good. Allah is great because he is powerful.

The God of parts of the OT is a god for those who want to justify genocide. Even Jesus, for all his many failings, is better than that. There are several ideas about god, not one, in both Testaments.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I’d like to see some basis for that claim. Here’s one horrific vignette that points in a different direction. According to Richard Fletcher (The Cross and the Crescent: Christianity and Islam from Muhammad to the Reformation, Viking, 2003, p. 115), the law in late medieval Spain decreed the death penalty for both parties in cases of a sexual relationship between a Muslim man and a Christian woman, but only for the woman if the religions of the two parties were reversed. In the latter case, says Fletcher, the woman was usually enslaved rather than being executed (if she converted to Christianity then she wouldn’t be punished at all). The Crown and the woman’s accusers shared the price of her sale–and furthermore sex with slaves was totally legal. Here’s now the monks of the town of Roda exploited this legal situation around 1356. They would sleep with Muslim women, then accuse them to the authorities. Then they would persuade the Crown to let them keep the women as slaves, which meant that they could either go on having sex with them or sell them.

Now if that isn’t a “dim and humiliating” way to live, I don’t know what is. Fletcher gives a number of other examples, and concludes that the conditions under which the Muslim “mudejars” lived were comparable to the practice of “dhimmitude.” Not worse, mind you, as some have claimed–just comparable. Given what I know about the way Jews were treated in Europe in general in the later Middle Ages, I’d tend to evaluate their condition as *worse *than that of dhimmis. But I will not insist on that point, since it may be an error in perspective (I know more about the oppression of Jews by Christians than about the oppression of Jews and Christians by Muslims, and that combined with my guilt as a Christian may make it seem worse).

Edwin

It still happens - this time, the victims are nuns. There is a simple answer, which has a precedent of sorts: to castrate all priests and male religious. They aren’t going to use those body-parts for copulation with anyone or anything, so they won’t miss them. There is a lot to be said for making them into eunuchs, Biblically, practically, traditionally. It would also be ecumenical in a way, because Muslims - and others - used to have the same practice.​

• [http://www.associatedcontent.com/ar...holic_priests_submit_to_mandatory.html?cat=34 (http://www.associatedcontent.com/ar...holic_priests_submit_to_mandatory.html?cat=34)

 

[Cecilianus]

It still happens - this time, the victims are nuns. There is a simple answer, which has a precedent of sorts: to castrate all priests and male religious. They aren’t going to use those body-parts for copulation with anyone or anything, so they won’t miss them. There is a lot to be said for making them into eunuchs, Biblically, practically, traditionally. It would also be ecumenical in a way, because Muslims - and others - used to have the same practice.​

• [http://www.associatedcontent.com/ar...holic_priests_submit_to_mandatory.html?cat=34 (http://www.associatedcontent.com/ar...holic_priests_submit_to_mandatory.html?cat=34)

GoG, this is a serious forum. Go away unless you have something constructive to add. Or at least try to ground what you say in reality.

 

[franki_rulz]

I have a feeling that this thread is going disintegrate into a fury of arguments and harsh words but I pray not…

I became Catholic in 2007 after a year of RCIA. I have struggled to be the best Catholic I could be, I studied theology like crazy, I went to Mass, and I followed God.

I have to say that I am impressed with Islam, very very impressed. The Qur’an is like a beautiful ray of light. Muhammad (pbuh) is a wonderful example. The Muslims I know follow Christ’s example better than most Catholics, they are more peaceful and loving than I thought possible. Their devotion to God is absolute. And the evidence for Islam is piling up for me. I know many here have negative opinions about Islam, Muslims, and the Prophet Muhammad and I did too once but now that I have put a lot of time into studying the religion and talking to many people, I have discovered the true Islam. True Islam is not the fanatical religion of the media nor is it a woman-hating, gun-toting, violent mockery of religion as I had been taught. It very well might be the most peaceful faith on earth. God is in Islam, I can’t deny it any longer. Believe me I’ve tried!
I love the Church, but God has led me to Her and God may be leading me to Islam. I am willing to put everything else aside to follow God where He wills, even if I must put aside my beloved Mother Church. I will submit to God in all things, He will lead me where He wills.

I hesitate to ask…thoughts?

please keep it civil

pax vobiscum
Irish

Hi,
I hate to get into this debate on Christianity v/s Islam but, I dont think you have done your research on Islam.

For instance do u know that Allah is the name of a pre islamic moon god?

In pre-Islamic days, that Muslims call the Days of ignorance, the religious background of the Arabs was pagan, and basically animistic. Through Moon, Sun, Stars, Planets, Animals, wells, trees, stones, caves, springs, and other natural objects man could make contact with the deity. At Mekka, Allah was the chief of the gods and the special deity of the Quraish, the prophet?s tribe. Allah had three daughters: Al Uzzah (Venus) most revered of all and pleased with human sacrifice; Manah, the goddess of destiny, and Al Lat, the goddess of vegetable life. These three daughters of Allah (there is a Quranic verse about them) were considered very powerful over all things. Therefore, their intercessions on behalf of their worshippers were of great significance.

Arabs used to give their children names such asAbdullah (slave of Allah). Clean proof was the fact that, Muhammads fathers name was Abdullah. Logical analogy here is had there been no Allah in pre-Islamic Arab, there could be no Abdullah or slave of Allah in Arabia.

Even today, in the entire Arab World, not only Muslims but all other non-Muslim (Jews, Christians, Sabians, Bahai, an atheist etc.) Arabs says Ya Allah? as the expression of surprise or unhappiness/sorrow.

Dr. Albert Houranis statement: The Islamic name used for God was Allah, which was already in use for one of the local Gods (it now used by Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians as the name of God (A history Of Arab people by Albert Hourani, 1991, page-16, Belknap press of Harvard University, USA)

History tells us two theories of Allahs existence in and around the Kaba Sharif: (1) Pagans used to call the largest Statue amongst the 360 deities as ALLAH whom they used to consider the chief/supreme deity (god). Or, (2) Pagan Arabs used to worship 360 deities inside Kaba Sharif, and they used to consider them different smaller deities under the total control of a single most powerful chief deity called ALLAH who was invisible (Nirakar) and was the all-powerful, all-knowing, and totally unknowable.

In Islam many rituals performed (today) by devoted Muslims in the name of Allah are connected to the pagan worship that existed before Islam. Pagans practices of the Pilgrimage of Kabah once a year–the Fast of Ramadan, running around the Kabah seven times, kissing the black stone, shaving the head, animal sacrifices, running up and down two hills, throwing stones at the devil, snorting water in and out the nose, praying several times a day toward Mecca, giving alms, Friday prayers, etc. are strictly followed by Muslims today. Nobody can deny the fact that, all the above rituals of Muslims hajj today?existed well before the arrival of Islam.

Btw this might interest you:

Qur’an (9:73) - O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination

Qur’an (4:56) - Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise

Bukhari (2:28) - Women comprise the majority of Hell’s occupants. (A weak Hadith, Kanz al-`ummal, 22:10, even suggests that 99% of women go to Hell).

Did some1 say Islam is the religion of peace? I am not to sure what is it Islam that fascinates westeners?

I can post over a hundred verses from the quran which talks about slaying christian jews and the other infidels but I leave you to do ur own research.

I hope the holy spirit helps you out.
God bless,
Franklin

 

[seraphime2008]

.

I don’t find Islam a very “nice” religion for the most part. But I don’t think “niceness” is the all-important issue here, and I also don’t think that any religion can be characterized as a whole with such a broad brush. Any major religion, including Christianity, is going to have some admirable elements and some very disturbing ones.

Edwin

Edwin…
Please enlighten me with what u mean by those bolded words…
what are those some dirturbing elements of Christianity as a religion?
I find it rather disturbing…

 

[DuinasElegias]

I have a feeling that this thread is going disintegrate into a fury of arguments and harsh words but I pray not…

I became Catholic in 2007 after a year of RCIA. I have struggled to be the best Catholic I could be, I studied theology like crazy, I went to Mass, and I followed God.

I have to say that I am impressed with Islam, very very impressed. The Qur’an is like a beautiful ray of light. Muhammad (pbuh) is a wonderful example. The Muslims I know follow Christ’s example better than most Catholics, they are more peaceful and loving than I thought possible. Their devotion to God is absolute. And the evidence for Islam is piling up for me. I know many here have negative opinions about Islam, Muslims, and the Prophet Muhammad and I did too once but now that I have put a lot of time into studying the religion and talking to many people, I have discovered the true Islam. True Islam is not the fanatical religion of the media nor is it a woman-hating, gun-toting, violent mockery of religion as I had been taught. It very well might be the most peaceful faith on earth. God is in Islam, I can’t deny it any longer. Believe me I’ve tried!
I love the Church, but God has led me to Her and God may be leading me to Islam. I am willing to put everything else aside to follow God where He wills, even if I must put aside my beloved Mother Church. I will submit to God in all things, He will lead me where He wills.

I hesitate to ask…thoughts?

please keep it civil

pax vobiscum
Irish

Hey Dude,
I have been where you are. I have gone as far as to go into the world of Islam first hand.
1.) Muslims love Jesus
2.) They do not think that he is the son of God. Further…they believe that he is still alive, walking among us, today. They think the importance of a Son is negligent.
3.) Islam is the greatest lie ever told…go there, you will see. You will see. I swear it.
4.) The Angel, who apparently revealed himself at the end of Muhammad’s life, claimed to be Gabriel.
5.) This Angel was violent.
~Does this sound like an Angel of the Lord?
In Islam, Allah is “closed”. This is the same concept of the “\Holy of Holies”…and no one can be heard. It is one directional, any communication: That means, Allah hears…and man does not.
6.) There is no salvation except at the whim of Allah, who is called the “Most merciful, the most kind…” Thjis is good, I guess. Except there IS no atonement for sin. There IS only judgment.

This comes down to what you believe is the truth. And to what the Nature of God is. And…whether or not you believe that the Prince of Peace was a worthy / sufficient sacrifice or not.

It is up to you. It is ok to question~
But my own investigations into Islam nearly cost me everything, including my life in a very sincere way.

BTW: NO apostle, No major saint…ever went down in Turkey (Thessalonia). What do you think of that?

May God Bless you and guide you along your way.
DuinasElegias (Second Elegy)

 

[Contarini]

it’s not a revealed religion, and therefore there isn’t any “true” or “false” Islam (despite your repeated attempts to make fundamentalist Islam the “true” Islam and more moderate versions the “false” Islam). The Muslims who are reading this will disagree with me; that’s unavoidable since I don’t happen to be a Muslim and therefore don’t think it to be a revealed religion.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have been saying something like this over and over for years on this forum, but you have put it so much more succinctly!

Edwin

 

[sedonaman]

… Muslim do worship our God…

I don’t understand how this can be true. Here is a quick contrast:

God of the Christian Bible

What is God’s nature?
Tri-unity, all-good, all-loving, all-knowing, all-present. Cannot do what is contrary to his nature.

Is God Bound by anything?
Yes, his covenant with man, and the order of the universe He created.

**How was man created ?
Each person is created in the image and likeness of God, and as such, all are due human dignity and human rights.

Why was man created?
All were created out of God’s love, to share eternal happiness in heaven.

Who among men are loved?
God loves EVERYBODY equally and wants all to go to heaven.

How much is man loved?
God would rather experience a horrible death than live without man.

Does man have free will?
Yes, because God wants man to come to Him of his own free will.

What is wanted of man?
Man is to love God with his whole mind, body, and soul, and to love his neighbor as himself (including enemies), because all are made in the image and likeness of God. Since God wants man to come to Him of his own free will, forced conversion is banned.

Allah of the Koran

What is Allah’s nature?
Cannot know Allah’s nature, only his will. Allah’s nature can be understood only of his will. However, Allah’s will is what he wills it. Therefore, not only is Allah a god of will, but also his will is subject to what he wills it to be; and Allah’s nature is whatever he wills it to be at any given time.

Is Allah Bound by anything?
No. Can change his mind about anything at any time. (One might then ask how can Allah’s will be known.)

How was man created ?
No concept of the individual; only the group; no concept of individual means no human dignity or human rights for anyone.

Why was man created?
For Allah’s amusement. The despised Jews and Christians were created to serve Muslims in this life and are damned to hell in the next.

Who among men are loved?
Allah likes only those who are believers, hates unbelievers, especially Jews and Christians.

How much is man loved?
Not loved at all, at best only liked.

Does man have free will?
An open question still debated. Since free will might not exist, forced conversion is acceptable.

What is wanted of man?
Demands obedience out of fear of eternal damnation. Muslims are commanded to despise Allah’s enemies and to bring the whole world under Islamic law.

How can these two be the same?**

 

[sedonaman]

…
Can you support this claim?
Edwin

“Islam says: ‘Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors!’” – That great Islamic holy man, Ayatollah Khomeini

 

[dzheremi]

Ayatollah Khomeini may or may not have been a holy man to some Shi’a, but as they only make up a very small part of the Islamic world (10-15%, depending on where you read) I would be careful before thinking that Mr. Khomeini’s teachings have much currency outside of the Iranian/Shi’ite sphere of influence. Of the Muslim-majority countries, only Iran, Iraq, Azerbaijan, and Bahrain have Shi’a majorities. (source)

 

[Cecilianus]

I don’t understand how this can be true. Here is a quick contrast:

Please provide some evidence!

God of the Christian Bible

What is God’s nature?
Tri-unity, all-good, all-loving, all-knowing, all-present. Cannot do what is contrary to his nature.

True in Islam as well - except for voluntarism found in both both Islam and Christianity (William of Occam, Luther, etc.)

Is God Bound by anything?
Yes, his covenant with man, and the order of the universe He created.

How was man created ?
Each person is created in the image and likeness of God, and as such, all are due human dignity and human rights.

Why was man created?
All were created out of God’s love, to share eternal happiness in heaven.

Who among men are loved?
God loves EVERYBODY equally and wants all to go to heaven.

Very theologians would say that God loves everybody equally - He doles out graces in different measures; He predestines some but not others. Your last statement seems suspect.

How much is man loved?

God would rather experience a horrible death than live without man.

Does man have free will?
Yes, because God wants man to come to Him of his own free will.

Although Thomists regard predestination as a Catholic dogma.

What is wanted of man?

Man is to love God with his whole mind, body, and soul, and to love his neighbor as himself (including enemies), because all are made in the image and likeness of God. Since God wants man to come to Him of his own free will, forced conversion is banned.

Allah of the Koran

What is Allah’s nature?
Cannot know Allah’s nature, only his will. Allah’s nature can be understood only of his will. However, Allah’s will is what he wills it. Therefore, not only is Allah a god of will, but also his will is subject to what he wills it to be; and Allah’s nature is whatever he wills it to be at any given time.
Is Allah Bound by anything?
No. Can change his mind about anything at any time. (One might then ask how can Allah’s will be known.)

Same is true of most Protestant, Franciscan, and Byzantine theologians.

How was man created ?

No concept of the individual; only the group; no concept of individual means no human dignity or human rights for anyone.

Having studied at some length the Islamic notion of the insan al-kamil or “perfect man” through whom we participate in human nature, I can only express my amusement at your blanket denial.

Why was man created?

For Allah’s amusement. The despised Jews and Christians were created to serve Muslims in this life and are damned to hell in the next.

Actually, try sticking with the text instead of making stuff up. Here is a hadith: “I was a hidden treasure and I longed to be known, so I created the world.”

Who among men are loved?

Allah likes only those who are believers, hates unbelievers, especially Jews and Christians. I wish I had possession of a copy of the Qur’an so I could randomly quote a passage to refute this. Or perhaps you could back up what you say instead of simply making a serious charge like this so flippantly?

How much is man loved?

Not loved at all, at best only liked.

This is an outrageous claim. BACK IT UP WITH EVIDENCE; making serious charges like this is slander. I offer the entire corpus of Sufi poetry as counter-evidence. Also, the hadith: “Neither in the earth nor in the heavens is there room for Me (Allah), but in the heart of My believing servant is there room for Me.”

I do not happen to have all of the Sufi poetry ever written memorized. Here is one example that I happen to know, from Farid ad-Din Attar:

Thus moth to candle spoke:  Be my beloved!
The candle said: If you so madly love me,
Enter my flame; and be consumed by it
If you so badly want to be embraced.

Does man have free will?

An open question still debated. Since free will might not exist, forced conversion is acceptable.

I believe this is false as well, except perhaps in regards to idolators. Christians cannot be forcibly converted - only pressured through the humiliation of dhimmitude.

What is wanted of man?

Demands obedience out of fear of eternal damnation. Muslims are commanded to despise Allah’s enemies and to bring the whole world under Islamic law.
We are demanded obedience to God as well, out of fear of damnation if nothing more. We are also commanded to despise sin and the work of His enemies, and to conform the world to His will.

How can these two be the same?

Ask the Church if you can’t see it on your own. It’s the Catholic Church’s teaching, not mine. They profess to worship the God of Abraham. Theological errors don’t change the object of worship - do you think that you understand God’ essence? Even with the help of divine Revelation, we can still say nothing positive about Him - only what He is like, and what He is not.

 

[StevenFrancis]

I have a feeling that this thread is going disintegrate into a fury of arguments and harsh words but I pray not…

I became Catholic in 2007 after a year of RCIA. I have struggled to be the best Catholic I could be, I studied theology like crazy, I went to Mass, and I followed God.

I have to say that I am impressed with Islam, very very impressed. The Qur’an is like a beautiful ray of light. Muhammad (pbuh) is a wonderful example. The Muslims I know follow Christ’s example better than most Catholics, they are more peaceful and loving than I thought possible. Their devotion to God is absolute. And the evidence for Islam is piling up for me. I know many here have negative opinions about Islam, Muslims, and the Prophet Muhammad and I did too once but now that I have put a lot of time into studying the religion and talking to many people, I have discovered the true Islam. True Islam is not the fanatical religion of the media nor is it a woman-hating, gun-toting, violent mockery of religion as I had been taught. It very well might be the most peaceful faith on earth. God is in Islam, I can’t deny it any longer. Believe me I’ve tried!
I love the Church, but God has led me to Her and God may be leading me to Islam. I am willing to put everything else aside to follow God where He wills, even if I must put aside my beloved Mother Church. I will submit to God in all things, He will lead me where He wills.

I hesitate to ask…thoughts?

please keep it civil

pax vobiscum
Irish

Regardless of how peaceful and kind Islam may be, (and I don’t have anything I disagree with in that, from my own personal perspective), or no matter how deeply you admire the devotion of Muslims, (I am in awe of it, myself), these are extraneous concerns for the practice of Catholocism OR Islam. At a minimum you’re letting some apparent superficial conceptions about adherents you may know of one faith or another get mixed up with the importance of the theology.

As to peacefulness, you could just set about using the example of the peaceful Muslims you know and applying that tranquility to your practice of Catholocism?

As to devotion, how about using the examples you’re mentioning of Muslim devotion and apply that to your practice of Catholocism?

Better yet, how about just reading the Imitation of Christ by Thomas A’Kempis or the Holy Gospels of Saints Matthew Mark Luke and John, and apply the life and teachings of Jesus Christ to your life in a fuller and richer way.

You are a member of the Body of Christ. Put into it what you want out of it. Be what you want our Church to be. Provide living testimony of Christ Jesus. Whether you’ve known more friendly devotional Muslims than Catholics is immaterial to the the tenets, theology and truth of the Catholic Church.

If this is some kind of indictment about the lax or even non-existent worship among many modern day Catholics in the United States, or the extraordinary imperfection of the personalities and such that go into the make-up of the Church, remember that there are plenty of faithful, loving, devoted, adherent followers of Jesus Christ in the Church all over the world, including your local parish. I guarantee it. Also remember the imperfections of the all of the people God has chosen to be his people, and even his prophets, disciples and apostles over the millenia.

I will pray for you to not sacrafice:

The Holy Spirit
The Divinity of Christ
The Holy Trinity
Apostolic succession
The Communion of Saints
The Sacraments
The membership of the Body of Christ

for any of the reasons you’ve listed above. That would be tragic.

This post is meant in charity and concern.

The Peace of our Lord be with you always,

Steven

 

[StevenFrancis]

I’m coming into this thread late without having read through all 12 pages of comments, so my apologies if I repeat something.

Discussions about Islam inevitably end up with people talking past each other because there is no single monolithic reality behind Islam - it is a spectrum, ranging from the ugly/demonic (fundamentalism) to the absolutely sublime (such as tawwasuf). You say you see the Qur’an as a beautiful ray of light - there are many beautiful rays of light within Islam, such as the simple piety of the believer bowing down to God five times a day (which Pius XII saw as such a consolation to him), the beauty of the ahadith (“I was a hidden treasure and longed to be known…” among others), the communion with God experienced - genuinely, according to most orthodox Catholic scholars (Robert Charles Zaehner and Edward Ingram Watkin among others) - of the Sufis, the truly beautiful Ninety-Nine Names of God, and most especially the tender devotion of many Muslims to the Sayyidatna Maryam. Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, in his beautiful book “The World’s First Love, Mary the Mother of God” devotes an entire chapter to the Qur’an, and Christians in the Spain of Alfonso el Sabio sang hymns to the Virgin specifically mentioning her miracles performed upon the intercession of her Islamic devotees.

However, all the beauty of Islam points me back to my Catholic Faith. Islam certainly has truth - but Catholicism has the fullness of truth. The mutawwasuf Sheikh 'Isa Nur al-Din (born under the name of Frithjof Schuon) distinguished between the exoteric form of a religion and its esoteric core, the latter of which he strictly identified both with truth and with sanctity. Although Schuon had converted to what he thought was “esoteric” Islam, he singled out Christianity as unique in that, unlike all other religions, its exoteric form of Catholicism WAS identical to its esoterism - while for Islam, sanctity could only be found among heterodox Sufis, Christianity/Catholicism ITSELF is the means to sanctity. This is perfectly in accord with Catholic teaching on the Church: while Muslims may achieve union with God and sanctity through mysterious channels of grace, God’s Church subsists in the Catholic Church and is most surely approached there.

What most draws me back to Catholicism is the explicit discussion of the Eucharist in surah “The Banquet” [5]:114-115. Yet, as I see so often in the Qur’an, the glorious theology is then tarnished by complete silliness in the next verse, where Mohammed mistakes the Christian doctrine of the Trinity as being composed of Jesus, Mary, and Allah. Likewise, Mohammed’s life was tarnished by some pretty base sins, such as his insatiable lust for more wives (violating the rules he gave to the rest of the community) and his maltreatment of Fatima (peace be upon her).

Islam has some rays of light, but Christ is the Sun from Whom all light shines. None of the splendor veritatis (splendor of truth) must or even can be rejected in the Catholic Faith, and the beauty you see is already present (though hidden) in its infinite fullness in the Most Blessed Sacrament.

In the Name of God, the Beneficent the Merciful - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Or…I could have said this.

Great post. Thanks,

Steve

 

[Steven_John]

I don’t understand how this can be true. Here is a quick contrast:

God of the Christian Bible

What is God’s nature?
Tri-unity, all-good, all-loving, all-knowing, all-present. Cannot do what is contrary to his nature.

Is God Bound by anything?
Yes, his covenant with man, and the order of the universe He created.

How was man created ?
Each person is created in the image and likeness of God, and as such, all are due human dignity and human rights.

Why was man created?
All were created out of God’s love, to share eternal happiness in heaven.

Who among men are loved?
God loves EVERYBODY equally and wants all to go to heaven.

How much is man loved?
God would rather experience a horrible death than live without man.

Does man have free will?
Yes, because God wants man to come to Him of his own free will.

What is wanted of man?
Man is to love God with his whole mind, body, and soul, and to love his neighbor as himself (including enemies), because all are made in the image and likeness of God. Since God wants man to come to Him of his own free will, forced conversion is banned.

Allah of the Koran

What is Allah’s nature?
Cannot know Allah’s nature, only his will. Allah’s nature can be understood only of his will. However, Allah’s will is what he wills it. Therefore, not only is Allah a god of will, but also his will is subject to what he wills it to be; and Allah’s nature is whatever he wills it to be at any given time.

Is Allah Bound by anything?
No. Can change his mind about anything at any time. (One might then ask how can Allah’s will be known.)

How was man created ?
No concept of the individual; only the group; no concept of individual means no human dignity or human rights for anyone.

Why was man created?
For Allah’s amusement. The despised Jews and Christians were created to serve Muslims in this life and are damned to hell in the next.

Who among men are loved?
Allah likes only those who are believers, hates unbelievers, especially Jews and Christians.

How much is man loved?
Not loved at all, at best only liked.

Does man have free will?
An open question still debated. Since free will might not exist, forced conversion is acceptable.

What is wanted of man?
Demands obedience out of fear of eternal damnation. Muslims are commanded to despise Allah’s enemies and to bring the whole world under Islamic law.

How can these two be the same?

Now to my understanding you are not in full communion with the Catholic because the catechism says

"… together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

If you are not in full communion with the Catholic church are you Catholic? I know the politically correct soothsayers of to day will tell you it is fine but is it? Can a heart live with a mouth of contradiction?

1. My understanding has always been that Catholics accept the authority of the RCC absolute. I dont.

I got to mass many days a week but dont call myself Catholic, but plenty of priests call me Catholic as do the Brethren in parish and our diocesan planning assembly.

Please dont leave home or say with your mouth what is not of your heart.
If you agree with statement 1 then submit and have no heart of question except to understand that the RCC is right and you are wrong.

If you have heart of question then change your profession of faith to be of truth not desire, this will then be witness under the YHWH Law rather than out side.

I urge you this way to bring honesty in your relationship with YHWH and His people.

I offer you this in love.

 

[Steven_John]

Mohammed mistakes the Christian doctrine of the Trinity as being composed of Jesus, Mary, and Allah

I have pondered this much, was it “revelation” that proposed the trinity this way or was it people around him.

IMO he made not a mistake on the trinity doctrine but addressed the mistake of some people that were as the Quran offers.

Given that may people of this day had goddess and much of religion would have been word of mouth i wonder if he was not speaking specifically into people lives about their claims.

Given that “allah” b4 the revelation had a daughter/s that was a goddess it would be more probable (IMO) that he be correcting the people there.

What is real interesting to me most Muslims i know dont see the difference in the Quranic trinity to that of today. That does not offer that some understandings of trinity are not insulting to Islamic religion and IMO the Islamic way.