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Cecilianus
Guest
Catholic tradition holds her to be the prostitute. At any rate, she was a great sinner. The difference between Catholicism and Islam, however, is that in Catholicism God forgives sinners whereas He does not in Islam. And she did with her money - “dirty” money, yes - the best thing she could do with it. She repented, and loved Our Lord.
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Cecilianus
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Look at the link I posted earlier on the reliability of the New Testament documents.
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FatTire
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Cecilianus I already responded to the Muslim, the post was directed at me but I appreciate the assistance. Go ahead and look at my response, it should be a page back or so.
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dzheremi
Guest
They weren’t mosques to begin with! Get off your Islamic high horse, please.
I have never denied that this happened.
This is, hands down, the most disgusting and vile drivel I have ever read from an amateur Muslim apologist on these forums. Really, I feel nauseated.
You are, of course, absolutely, 100% wrong here, my gastrointestinal constitution nonwithstanding. It is a matter of historical record that conversions under pressure drove the ideological engine of the Almohad dynasty in the 12th century in your illusory “Al-Andalus”:
“In their reforming zeal, these Almohads had no room in their Spain for Jews and Christians equally committed to the same dogma of God’s absolute unity. Judaism and Christianity were proscribed; synagogues were closed. An Almohad commentator was affronted that Jews ‘had become so bold as to wear Muslim clothing and…mingl[e] with the Muslims in external affairs.’ That outrage was soon remedied. Jews were forced to don distinctive costumes, and both Jews and Christians were pressured to convert." (Lowney 2005: 145-146; emphasis mine)
And that is but the easiest and most pertinent (given your love of the territory) example that I could find; there are many, many more. Reports of attempted forced conversions come out of Egypt’s Coptic community with alarming regularity, and I have read the first hand reports from Iraq’s Assyrians with my own eyes. There were no forced conversions? That’s bull! There were and are.
I suppose we should “thank” them for that, too? Yuck.
And my point is that you’re full of bologna…and to phrase it that way is insulting to bologna!
They’re lost. As you say, there exist foolish people everywhere.
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DeusVult09
Guest
You misunderstand again the books of the bible existed logng before 325 . how do we know this because there are early manuscripts and fragments still in existence like an early fragment of the gospel of john from 125 AD. You fail to understand that all these books existed long before 325 but that is when the official canon was formulated . The gospels were not written at the council of Nicea as they already existed we have early 1st and 2nd century church fathers quoting from Mathew, Mark, Luke and John in their own writings so we can be sure of that. Nothing could be preserved? Why what’s your evidence that nothing could be preserved? Or is this your own personal opinion again which you parade as fact? Again you are very misinformed about Christianity.
So all hadith are not reliable ? well your own scholars disagree with you on that . Some Muslims even consider Muslims who reject all ahadith as being a cult. So you disagree with the vast majority of your own scholars ho consider at least most of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim Reliable?
Haha you believe the davinci code? How moronic can you get? I knew you believed in some garbage but the davinci code? Hahaha well I guess you’ll believe anything.
There is no evidence Mary Magdalene was the wife of Jesus apart from in some Gnostic gospels. If you accept this Gnostic story as being true you have to accept everything contained in All their writings as being true.
Mary Magdalene wasn’t a prostitute get that through your thick head she wasn’t doing anything bad and this why she was pardoned. The only reason people thought she was a prostitute is because the is confused with somebody else the text never calls her a prostitute so your accusations are baseless.
Furthermore your assertion that all ahadith are false is laughable since your own scholars disagree with you on that.
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Cecilianus
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If she wasn’t a prostitute, then what did she have to be pardoned for?
The Muslims here are denying the reality of conversion, whether that of St. Paul or St. Mary Magdalene. I see no point in arguing that they had nothing to be converted from. St. Mary Magdalene was a whore, and St. Paul was a Christian-hunter; both chief among sinners. They also became two of the most glorious saints the Church has ever seen. Metanoia is something that simply can’t happen naturally, without divine grace; and if you are going to be so blind as to ignore divine grace when it slaps you in the face, then you get ridiculous claims such as “St. Paul’s conversion was a hoax” and “St. Mary Magdalene was a prostitute therefore Jesus was dirty because she poured oil over him” (but, by the way, Jesus is still a prophet:shrug:?)
Catholic tradition identifies St. Mary Magdalene with Mary, the sister of Martha, and with the woman from whom seven devils were expelled. If you truly believe in the Redemption, this shouldn’t be problematic at all.
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Cecilianus
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And a note on the “Da Vinci Code”: It’s FICTION. As in, NOT REAL. Specifically, it’s bad fiction. It’s not fine literature, and it in no way ever pretended to be history.
Wow ! 11 hours and 30 minutes it took to read all 37 pages. 
The crazy thing was I started reading it because I wanted to learn something and I identified briefly with Irish. I too found Islam intriquing and read the Koran. But After reading it I found it wasn’t for me. Thus, my search continued until recently I found the Eastern Catholic Church Maronite Rite. I’m learning all I can about it and hope to baptized into the faith soon. The only reason I’m posting this is that I believe since the original poster hasn’t been active for awhile that maybe this thread which began with curiousity has devolved into a war of words over two world religions. Both sides have made valid points but in the end I think this can’t ever truly be resolved. There will ALWAYS BE some conflict between rival faiths. Anyway thats just my 2 cents.
The crazy thing was I started reading it because I wanted to learn something and I identified briefly with Irish. I too found Islam intriquing and read the Koran. But After reading it I found it wasn’t for me. Thus, my search continued until recently I found the Eastern Catholic Church Maronite Rite. I’m learning all I can about it and hope to baptized into the faith soon. The only reason I’m posting this is that I believe since the original poster hasn’t been active for awhile that maybe this thread which began with curiousity has devolved into a war of words over two world religions. Both sides have made valid points but in the end I think this can’t ever truly be resolved. There will ALWAYS BE some conflict between rival faiths. Anyway thats just my 2 cents.
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planten
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Good and true point. But some christians want to keep their side absolutely good while they throw mud on others. I agree with you. It may be a bitter pill for some christians to swallow.
**I would agree with you 100% about Mary Magd. But I will never agree with you about Paul. I had to bring the case of Mary Magd pouring oil on the head of Jesus because some christian was getting out of control and bringing out false reports about our dear ones. Otherwise I respect Mary Magd. She was with Jesus. Jesus approved of her works. There is nothing wrong about mary Magd.
But such is not the case of Pual or saul the killer who never met Jesus**.
** I have given my opinion about Mary magd and paul above. There is no change. Mary did not spoil the faith. But Paul did very much, going to Greece and modifying the teachings of Jesus and the practice of Jesus (and all his disciples) and eating the flesh of swine and saying “Law was a curse”. I am sorry. I cannot go near Paul. He is not a saint at all.**
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seraphime2008
Guest
Come on Planten…
You’re really an example of true muslims here: never accepted the truth and the explanations given to u so many times either because of lacking the intelligence, or lacking of wisdom or just being obstinate because the truth is rather difficult to swallow.
Tell me why do muslims don’t eat pork? Is it because ur following the Jew with their Torah? or any other explanation? And what do u know about “law was a curse” in the context that Paul gave? if u can’t answer this, ur just a poor islam apologetic only mimicking the poor lines of other poor apologetics with no insight at all.
Please, don;'t lock up ur self to islamic mentality of being stubborn yet full of pride. And mostly. don’t drag the rest of us with ur logic! It’s insane…too much too often
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Steven_John
Guest
This is the most literal interpretation i can find of what i think is being said of Pauls words
It does not imply the law is a curse but the wrong attitude toward it is.
this can b hard to follow so the modern interpretation may be clearer for you
Reading i would suggest it just means that if you are just living in the law your in trouble because you wont make it, but if you have a heart for the law even if you fall you will get mercy.
It does not imply the law is a curse but the wrong attitude toward it is.
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franki_rulz
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Muslims always try to distort history to prove that Islam spread by peace.A few years after mohammeds,a very very minute section maybe some 100-200 people in the southern state of India,Kerela converted to Islam because they used to trade with the arabs and the arabs promised the special previlidges if they converted.
That was the only “peaceful” conversion of hindus/buddhist to Islam in the Indian subcontinent.
The India subcontinient first came into Muslim hands in the year 770-790 a few years after the self proclaimed prophet died.From then on, its only been a sad tale of massacre of innocent hindu/buddhists.
India was know to be a super rich country before the muslims arrived. The hindus used to built hugh temples made of gold for their gods. After the muslim started invading India they destroyed most of the temples and used the loot and the stones to build their own mosques.
Thousands of mosques in India were literally built of the skulls and bones on hindus.
For example, the famous jama masjid in delhi is built on the skulls and bones of over 20,000 innocent hindus.
The irony is that most of the muslims in India-pakistan-bangladesh-Afghanistan(erstwhile hindustan) are descendants of muslims who murdered the men, killed the kids,raped hindu women and forced them to bear muslim kids so that the next generation will be muslim.
If only they knew the truth, or they know the truth and choose to be ignorant about it.
Different historian put the no of hindus killed during the 700 yrs of muslim regime in India to be in the range of 30-40 million. Thats a hugh no for a period of 700 AD-1400 AD.
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Contarini
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Could you name some of these historians so I could check the figures for myself?
Edwin
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Contarini
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I don’t see how this makes him a “con-artist.” You just choose to describe what he did using pejorative terms–you have not actually shown that he did anything wrong in this instance (please do not start listing all the *other *things Muhammad did wrong–that is not the point here!).
Double standard. Apparently the Northwest Semites are allowed to have a generic name for “god” but the Semites of the Arabian peninsula aren’t. You actually made the point earlier that “al-ilah” was a generic word, so you are refuting yourself. It seems quite plausible to me that “El” and “Allah” are cognates (I know that there is some debate about this) and filled a somewhat similar function in both societies. Again, you have no case here.
I’m not aware of having given you any information about what languages or alphabets I do or do not read. As a matter of fact you’re right–I do not know the Arabic or Syriac alphabets. I read Hebrew and could probably make some sense of an Aramaic text written in the Hebrew alphabet, but obviously that’s not the case here.
But you are avoiding the question. Evidence doesn’t have to be primary evidence–a statement by a scholar or by an authoritative figure within the Chaldean community would be enough.
What does “more keen” mean? How keen or “un-keen” are Chaldaean communities outside Iraq? If this is primarily a practice of Chaldaeans living in Iraq, then its theological significance is diminished. If it is rooted in a theological conviction that “Allah” is not an appropriate name for the Christian God, then you would not expect Chaldaeans to start using “Allah” once they moved outside Iraq.
I’m not sure what your point is.
I do not accept the divine inspiration of the Qur’an. That should be obvious from my posts and from my declared affiliation (unless you are one of those paranoid maniacs who thinks that anyone who is slighly fair to Islam is a Muslim in disguise). The dependence of Muhammad on prior ideas is certainly relevant in refuting the Muslim claim that the Qur’an is a miracle and can only have been produced by direct divine inspiration. But it is also relevant in refuting your claim that Islam is really just repackaged paganism.
Here’s your dilemma: if you argue that Muhammad’s roots are primarily pagan, you strengthen the Islamic case, because most of us are going to be very impressed that a pagan could come up with something so close to Biblical religion. But if you argue that his ideas were largely “stolen” from Biblical religion and grafted onto pagan roots (which is clearly true, I think), you no longer have a case for Allah being a “different god.” In fact, you have no such case however you argue it. The evidence is squarely against you either way.
I’m interested in refuting your blasphemous and heretical claims about Allah not being our God. I am of course on your side with regard to the issue of whether the Qur’an is divinely inspired as Muslims claim. But they are two separate issues.
I have not at any point suggested that Islam was true. I do not believe Islam to be true over against Christianity and Judaism. (Obviously it contains elements of truth.)
Your anti-Islamic polemic would be more credible if you would refrain from accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being a Muslim. I have no interested in defending the truth *of *Islam, but I have every interest in defending the truth *in *Islam and the truth *about *Islam.
Edwin
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franki_rulz
Guest
Heres some spoon feeding for you:
Type this is google:hindus massacared in mughal india.
There are thousands of books by both western as well as Indian scholars that talk about this. **In the span of 700 yrs that the muslims ruled India,the estimated hindu population to have been killed was around 30-40 million(thats around 15% of the population of Australia).
DO NOT TRY TO DENY HISTORY.EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT INDIA HAS FACED THE WORST ONSLAUGHT OF ISLAM…**
There are document facts and you have the ***** to deny it…
It just shows how uneducated and ill-literate your are about the way islam spread across the world.
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franki_rulz
Guest
Thats a very wrong statement to make.Hindus have never massacared anyone.The hindu warrior code was to not touch anybody that didnt have arms/swords. That was strictly followed.
In fact hindu rulers were know to protect muslims who came to them asking for help to be saved from other muslims.
India has always been know to shelter refugees.
For example, India today has the largest population of Parsis.
Parsis are Zoroastrians who arrived in India 1200 years ago from Persia(Iran). They were fleeing persecution at the hands of Arab conquerors invading Persia. They landed in Diu, off the coast of Gujarat in India, carrying nothing but a holy flame from their Temple they had left behind. From Diu they went to Sanjan in Gujarat, where the local Hindu ruler granted them land and they began a new life.
Hindus have over 33 million gods,they are only too glad to consider Jesus or allah as another god and worship them.
In fact hindu rulers were know to protect muslims who came to them asking for help to be saved from other muslims.
India has always been know to shelter refugees.
For example, India today has the largest population of Parsis.
Parsis are Zoroastrians who arrived in India 1200 years ago from Persia(Iran). They were fleeing persecution at the hands of Arab conquerors invading Persia. They landed in Diu, off the coast of Gujarat in India, carrying nothing but a holy flame from their Temple they had left behind. From Diu they went to Sanjan in Gujarat, where the local Hindu ruler granted them land and they began a new life.
Hindus have over 33 million gods,they are only too glad to consider Jesus or allah as another god and worship them.
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planten
Guest
Please note what Jesus said and what Saul said. See below:
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
mathew 5:17
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The above were the words of Jesus.
Now see what Paul says below:
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”[d] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”[f]
galatians 3.
**1. Please see the difference. Paul is saying that Christ redeemed all christians from the curse of the law. he is admitting that Mosaic law is a curse. ( Iam sure this is a horribly bad statement from Paul about a law which was sacred and given by YHWH.)
- That whoever is hung on a tree is cursed ( It means whoever dies on a cross is cursed.).
- Thereby, Paul is admitting that Jesus was a cursed person.
Paul has done more damage here by telling every one that they will be saved by the faith alone. There is no need to follow any law and no need to do any good deeds.
What type of a man was that Saul of Tarsus? Niether God, nor any peophet had taught any such thing to their nation that they do not need to do any good deeds under the law. It is clear that paul has condemned the law of Moses here, while Jesus uphelp that law. Fulfilling the law does not mean abondoning that law. It means retaining it and improving it. .
Did Jesus know that law is not based on faith? He did not say such thing. We all know that there is no faith without any law. Paul has misled the whole christian nation. I am sure, sensible christians cannot have both. They can have jesus or they can have paul.
I recently read notes on the net of very highly educated person of many faiths who condemned Paul for doing all the damage to christianity.
**
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franki_rulz
Guest
The mughal emperors used to maintain dairies of their deeds.All their dairies contain details of how they slaughtered hindus
Help urself, (un)happy reading…
1)Babur Nama-it can be downloaded from the internet,originally in persian, translated in english.written during the time of the 1st mughal emperor Zahiru’d-Din Muahmmed Babur(CE 1526-1530)
2)Guru Nanak writtings on Babur’s atrocities: Source:Rag Asa pg(360 to pg 1288)
3)Mughal emperor Jahangir(1605-1628)-Source: Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri
3)Shah Jahan(1658-1707)-Badshah Nama, Qazinivi & Badshah Nama , Lahori
4)Aurangazeb dairy:-Maasi-i-Alamgiri-
The cruelest emperor of them all, he is said to have ordered the massacre of over 10,000 hindus in a single day!
by a few westerners:
5)Manucci, Storia do Mogor vol-II p.451 & Travels of Frey Sebastian Manrique
6)Mughal rule in India - Stephen Meredyth Edwardes, Herbert Leonard
You might wanna read about the writing by guru tej bahadur(one of the sikh gurus on how kashmiri hindus and sikhs were massacared during his time by the muslims)
A few by Indian historians:
Hindu culture during and after Muslim rule: survival and subsequent challenges By Ram Gopal
**According to Prof. K.S. Lal, the author of the Growth of Muslim population in India, the Hindu population decreased by 80 million between 1000 AD, the year Mahmud Ghazni invaded India and 1525 AD, a year before the battle of Panipat. ** (and there still was 200 years of mughal rule left before the british invaded india. God bless their souls for having done that, else today I would have been chanting allah-bu-akbar…Jesus Christ!!
This might also help:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus…
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planten
Guest
**The above seems to be all wrong and vague refrences. Specially about Guru Nanak, the great Sikh leader. He was presented with honor in the court of King Babur. Guru Nanak was happy with babur and prayed and announced good news for Babur. How could he have said any bad word?
The rest of the above post is all pagan history.**
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