Catholic Considering Islam

[Cecilianus]

We DO NOT need to know about Mohammed coz he simply doesnt exist for us in the bible. For us there is nobody after christ.

Yes, we should be familiar with him for apologetic purposes. Islam is a world religion which we should take seriously, and therefore we ought to understand why it is false before rejecting it. We will also encounter Muslims often in daily life, such as we are doing now, and we need to understand their religion in order to have any sort of dialogue with them.

Furthermore, all of Islam’s riches - the beauty and sanctity of its mysticism - are properly the inheritance of the Church as the Body of Christ, to which all truth and beauty belong. Islam no less than Greek philosophy and Oriental wisdom can be part of the “spoils of the Egyptians” (to use a patristic term for Gentile wisdom, thoroughly document by de Lubac in volume 1 of Medieval Exegesis).

 

[sedonaman]

We DO NOT need to know about Mohammed coz he simply doesnt exist for us in the bible. For us there is nobody after christ.

That might be true about the religious Mohammed but not about the political Mohammed. “Mohammed” is the most popular name in the world; we need to know about someone like that.

 

[Contarini]

Actually, early Christians were rather dubious about Roman baths, seeing them (with some reason) as sources of moral corruption. I believe that public baths more or less vanished from Europe for centuries, and when they came back in (in the later Middle Ages, I believe) they were again identified with prostitution and general immorality.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I feel that you are much un-informed about the life of our prophet. While we know all about Jesus, you know little about Muhammad.

It’s certainly true that you know more about Jesus than we do about Muhammad. Jesus has a place in your religion–Muhammad has no official place in ours. However, it’s not true that you know “all” about Jesus. You know what the Qur’an and Hadith tell you, which is often garbled.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

muslim Spain is known for its tolerance,beautiful architecture etc etc…we brought civilisation to Europe,before muslims they/we didnt know what taking a bath meant lol.

Bathing is not the whole of civilization. It’s true that Christian Europeans in the early Middle Ages were not big on baths.

However, to say that Muslims brought civilization to Europe" is like Europeans claiming that they brought civilization to Africa. It’s true in certain respects, but it doesn’t excuse the raids, the slave trading, the centuries of violence and oppression in either case. Muslims terrorized the north coast of the Mediterranean throughout the early Middle Ages (and to some extent right through to the 19th century), and this may well have had something to do with slowing down the progress of European civilization!

The thanks was to kill the muslims and convert the mosques into churches

Not that simple. Both Chrsitans and Muslims were relatively tolerant of each other in Spain until the Almoravids came over from North Africa and denounced the local “taifa” Muslim kings for their tolerance and co-existence with the Christians. They were the ones who started the cycle.

i have been reading abour the forced conversions of muslims and jews only

You should broaden your reading.

Because there were no forced conversion,the nonmuslims had to pay jizya thats all…it made many people convert because of the economy,but thats still not force.

It’s pressure. You could also argue that the Muslims and Jews were not forced to convert in 15th-century Spain. After all, they were free to keep their religion if they were willing to abandon their homes. (Admittedly this is much closer to actual forced conversion than the mere imposition of jizya.)

Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of the laws regarding dhimmitude being abused in order to force Christians to convert. There are stories of Muslims falsely claiming that their Christian (or other non-Muslim) neighbors had recited the “shahada” or had blasphemed against Muhammad (the latter offence resulted in death if the offender did not convert). According to Marshall Hodgson (a historian whom few would accuse of bias against Islam), a Sufi shaykh in India who was fulsomely praised by a Hindu poet using Muslim imagery interpreted that poem as a profession of Islamic faith and demanded that the Hindu convert or die. When the Hindu fled to a neighboring state instead, the Muslim pursued him and made sure that he was executed for apostasy. That’s how intolerant even the supposedly gentle Sufis could be on occasion!

my point is to show you how much better the nonmuslims had it under muslim rule

But you haven’t established this. As far as I can tell, the situation of nonmuslims under Muslim rule and of Muslims or Jews under Christian rule was pretty similar. Perhaps in the later Middle Ages Jews under Christian rule had it particularly bad due to the proliferation of ritual murder and Host desecration accusations, but it’s not as if Muslims didn’t engage in that kind of persecution sometimes as well (just with different excuses).

Even in Mecca,the heart of islam some people started to pray to the grave of Amina(Mohameds mothers) thats why her grave was destroyed 200 years ago.Fatimas grave is still there somewhere,but it is kept secret where.It is best so.shaytans best weapon is to fool people,so they first think how they are honouring the “saint”,next you know they pray to it.And thats shirk(idol worshiping)…it happened to all religions only not to islam and judaism

Contradiction. You just gave an example where you think it happened in Islam.

Of course, the idea that venerating graves is idolatry is a bit of Wahhabi ideology, and i was the murderous Wahhabi fundamentalists who desecrated the graves at Mecca and slaughtered their fellow Muslims. If *that’s *the form of Islam flourishing in Bosnia today, we should all be very afraid indeed (although Christians have ourselves to blame given the way Christianity was used to justify genocide).

what is Allat al uzza and manat? its first time i hear about that

Well, that’s not to the credit of your Islamic education, although Christians are also guilty of suppressing things that might confuse believers, unfortunately.

These three goddesses are mentioned in Surah 53.19-22. The pagan Meccans believed them to be daughters of Allah. As the passage now stands, the Qur’an condemns the ascription of “daughters” to God.

According to a number of early Islamic scholars (including al-Tabari), when Muhammad originally recited the passage now found as Surah 53.19 he followed it with an endorsement of the veneration of these goddesses as intercessors between humans and Allah. Al-Tabari and other early scholars believed that Satan had deceived Muhammad into uttering this praise of Allah’s “daughters,” and they saw Surah 22:52-53 as a reference to this incident. Ibn al-Arabi came up with the unconvincing (to most of us) explanation that Satan had imitated Muhammad’s voice, and it seems that most later Muslim commentators follow him in denying that Muhammad could really have said this. But these denials are rooted in the theological assumption that Muhammad *can’t *have made such a mistake, not in the historical evidence.

See this Islamic website, which comes down against the authenticity of the story for reasons that I find wholly unconvincing.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

the muslims destroyed the house were he lived,they destroyed the grave of his mother,they even destroyed one of his mosques

The savage Wahhabi barbarians did this. May the true Allah defend us all from their fury.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

So according to this guy Contarini, just because Christians/the Church might (might!)

When you use the word “might” you make my point for me. It’s not just about what Christians did in the past. It’s about the fact that you are willing to defend these horrific actions today while condemning Muslims for having done similar things.

have been wrong in some of their deeds a looooooong time ago, we Catholics/Christians are not supposed to denounce and criticise the canonised teachings and rulings upon which jihadists base their murderous actions?

what kind of logic is that?

Quite simple. Christians who acted intolerantly were basing their actions on Scripture and Tradition, just as the jihadists base their actions on Qur’an and Sunnah.

Shame on the useful idiots who enable the terrorists!

No, shame on those Christians who set up a double standard in their own behalf and foolishly claim that Christians who have acted violently did so without any basis in the teachings of Scripture and Tradition.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

i know many catholics and most are way more tolerant…but then again,maybe its because they are from Europe and this forum is mainly american(americans are known to be fundamentalist)

That’s an unfair stereotype. We’ve had some quite nasty European Catholics on this forum. In fact, I’d say that where you do find ultraconservative European Catholics, they are much worse than the Americans because they are more willing to defend violence and intolerance. But there are fewer of them in the first place. The folks on this forum are in many cases deeply influenced by American fundamentalism, true. But they are not typical of American Catholics in general.

Edwin

 

[the_muslim]

Hmmm. I may be able to add something to this discussion. I am a former Muslim, who is entering an RCIA program. I have a mixed view of Islam. It is, in my opinion, is not all bad and it is not all good. I would say that Islam reflects some divine truths, but not the whole truth. Please let me know if I can address any specific concerns.

THE QURAN SPEAKS
VOL. 11-No.36
JESUS IS NOT GOD

And behold. God will say: “O Jesus son of Mary! Did´st thou say unto men, Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou would´st indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For thou knowest in full all that is hidden. Never said I to them aught except what Thou did´st command me to say, to wit, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.” (HOLY QURAN 5:119-120).

Compare with Bible: (1) John 5:30; (2) John 12:49; (3) John 14:28; (4) Isaiah 42:8; (5) Acts 2:22.

THE QURAN SPEAKS
VOL. 111-No.4
MUHUMMED IS NOT GOD

Say thou (O Muhummed to the people): “I am but a man like you: it is revealed to me by inspiration, that your God is One God: so stand true to Him, and ask for His forgiveness”. And woe to those who join gods with God. (HOLY QURAN 41:6)

Some people maintain that Muslims worship Muhummed instead of God, and call them “Muhummedans”. The above verse gives the lie to such an allegation as Muhummed never claimed himself to be a god. He was a prophet like any other messenger of God. The word “Muhummedanism” as applied to the Islamic religion is a misnomer. Islam means submission to the Will of God and its followers are called Muslims.

How then can man be justified with God? Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?-(JOB 25:4).

THE FOLLOWING EXTRACTS FROM THE BIBLE BEAR TESTIMONY TO THE QURANIC TRUTH THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders ans signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know.-(ACTS 2:22).

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God…-(REVELATION 19:10)

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.-(JOHN 12:49).

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.-(JOHN 5:30-31).

…for my Father is greater than I.-(JOHN 14:28).

And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.-(JOHN 17:3)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord; neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him.-(JOHN 13:16)

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her (Mary Magdalene)… I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.-(JOHN 20:17)

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.-(MARK 13:32)

But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God.-(JOHN 8:40).

“It was the first religion that preached and practised democracy; for, in the mosque when the call from the Minaret is sounded and the worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and the king kneel side by side and proclaim, “God alone is great.” I have been struck over and over again by this indivisible unity of Islam that makes a man distinctively a brother.”

 

[Cecilianus]

THE QURAN SPEAKS
VOL. 11-No.36
JESUS IS NOT GOD

And behold. God will say: “O Jesus son of Mary! Did´st thou say unto men, Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou would´st indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For thou knowest in full all that is hidden. Never said I to them aught except what Thou did´st command me to say, to wit, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.” (HOLY QURAN 5:119-120).

Compare with Bible: (1) John 5:30; (2) John 12:49; (3) John 14:28; (4) Isaiah 42:8; (5) Acts 2:22.

Christians do not accept the authority of the Quran, however. I’m bewildered as to why you chose those verses from the Bible; they all pointed to Christ’s identity with God the Father (or, more precisely, the fact that His teaching “is not mine but of He who sent Me”).

THE QURAN SPEAKS
VOL. 111-No.4
MUHUMMED IS NOT GOD

Say thou (O Muhummed to the people): “I am but a man like you: it is revealed to me by inspiration, that your God is One God: so stand true to Him, and ask for His forgiveness”. And woe to those who join gods with God. (HOLY QURAN 41:6)

Some people maintain that Muslims worship Muhummed instead of God, and call them “Muhummedans”. The above verse gives the lie to such an allegation as Muhummed never claimed himself to be a god. He was a prophet like any other messenger of God. The word “Muhummedanism” as applied to the Islamic religion is a misnomer. Islam means submission to the Will of God and its followers are called Muslims.

Nobody here is claiming this, however.

How then can man be justified with God? Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?-(JOB 25:4).

In a word, original sin - I’m glad to see that Muslims and Catholics are in agreement about this. Christ is the answer to Job’s question - His sacrifice on Calvary, which the Quran shrinks away from even admitting, is our redemption.

THE FOLLOWING EXTRACTS FROM THE BIBLE BEAR TESTIMONY TO THE QURANIC TRUTH THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders ans signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know.-(ACTS 2:22).

How does this show that Jesus is not God? Christians do not accept the Eutychian heresy - we believe that Christ was fully God AND fully man.

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God…-(REVELATION 19:10)

“Him” refers to an angel, not to Christ, as you can tell simply by looking up the verse in question.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.-(JOHN 12:49).

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.-(JOHN 5:30-31).

…for my Father is greater than I.-(JOHN 14:28).

And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.-(JOHN 17:3)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord; neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him.-(JOHN 13:16)

Of course. What’s the issue here? Christ is not a separate God from His Father; the Father is the source or font of divinity. That’s just plain Catholic and Orthodox dogma. You’re trying to refute tritheism - something that Christians don’t believe in anyway.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her (Mary Magdalene)… I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.-(JOHN 20:17)

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.-(MARK 13:32)

But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God.-(JOHN 8:40).

“God” in the first and last verses refers to God the Father. The second verse refers to the Son in His human nature and earthly mission; it was not given to Him to reveal His judgment day to us.

“It was the first religion that preached and practised democracy; for, in the mosque when the call from the Minaret is sounded and the worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and the king kneel side by side and proclaim, “God alone is great.” I have been struck over and over again by this indivisible unity of Islam that makes a man distinctively a brother.”

True, except it was not quite the first religion to preach and practise this democracy. Catholicism got to it first, where every day when Mass is celebrated the peasant and the king kneel together, side by side at the same communion rail (or did, back in the days when Catholics were really Catholics and had communion rails - but the unitive aspect of Communion still remains).

Do you honestly suppose that the Bible does not teach Christ’s divinity? I encourage you to read the Gospels from start to finish. Since - as a Muslim - you accept them as Scripture, you shouldn’t have any objection to doing this. The consubstantiality of Christ with God the Father is taught all over the place.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (JOHN 1:1).

The man whose blindness was healed by Jesus “falling down, adored him” (JOHN 9:38) - and instead of rebuking him, Jesus said, “For judgment I am come into this world, that they who see not, may see; and they who see, may become blind”.

He proclaimed salvation through Himself: “I am the door. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved” (JOHN 10:9).

“I and the Father are one.” (JOHN 10:30)

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by Me.” (JOHN 14:6)

“He that has seen Me, has seen the Father. How sayest thou, show us the Father?” (JOHN 14:9)

“This is Antichrist who denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.” (1 JOHN 2:22-23)

“And there are three who give testimony in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.” (1 JOHN 5:7)

A few random verses I just found by flipping through John (and then 1st John, which I happened to know had the verse about the Trinity I quoted last). Look at a Biblical cross-reference book for an exhaustive list (including verses from the Synoptic Gospels).

 

[Steven_John]

Putting he Quran away for the moment and looking at the bible i can see how you both can try substantiate your positions for the quotes.

I guess for me i was raised to believe that God was of one mind and always knew what He was doing here and there.

He knows exactly what is happening here and in china and is present in both places with that one mind.

Now this give me faith My God rocks, nothing can do this no human or spirit being, wow.

I dont know how this denys YHWH or Yahooshua or the invisible guide always present.

If you prefer the Father, son and holy spirit.

But one of the arguments here denys My all seeing all knowing God, unless you bring in linguistic acrobatics.

 

[planten]

**
I am happy that “The Muslim” has presented the case very beautifully that there is no God except One God and he has no parts or partners. The Muslim has proved the matter from the bible too. We know that Abraham was a strict monotheist (Unitarian). So was Moses a.s. and all the prophets of the Jewish race. Jesus was the last prophet in that line of the Jewish prophets. But the Jews did not admit him and do not do it even now.

The Jews do not admit Jesus as a good man. But the church is busy raising Jesus to the height of being a God. Three hundred years of hiding and persecution of the followers of Jesus who were all Jews did a lot of damage to the real teachings of Jesus. The Jews and the Christians are standing at opposite sides of the poles (poles apart). Islam came to decide the matter between those two great religions (Judaism and Charistianity.)

We Muslims know that the Jews downplayed (even killed and persecuted) the prophets. The christians did the opposite. They raised the rank of their prophet (Jesus) to more than what he was and made him into a God.

This controversy will continue for as long as Allah wants it to continue. Muslims are all trying hard to present the true picture to every one. It is upto all to understand. There is no compulsion. The christians try hard for Trinity i.e. Three Gods. But then they run back quickly to One God also. May Allah help those who can’t help themselves.**

 

[DeusVult09]

Mr Bosnian muslim,

Take some time off and READ the history about the Indian subcontinent.It has the largest population of muslim becuase hindus were raped, murdered and forced to accept Islam by the moghuls…

A common practise by the mughals after captured a terriotry was : murder the men, force the kids into islam and rape the women, a vast majority of the muslim populance in the indian subcontinent are descendents of mughals who raped hindu/buddhist women and bore muslims kids.

Dont get me started on forcible conversion.There are documented facts to prove this.

Thank god for the british and the portuguese to have invaded and ruled the indian subcontinent and stopped the mughals from converting the whole population.
The islamic invaders ruled the indian subcontinent for over 700 hrs and managed to convert over half the population to islam.

With over half a billion muslims in the subcontinent, we are living in hell.Imagine what would have happened if the mughals continued to rule the Indian subcontinent.

Hindustan(under the islamic rule), by the time the british invaded indian consisted of present day India,pakistan,bangladesh,nepal, burma, afghanistan,parts of the former soviet union and parts of iran.All these countries were forcibly turned muslim. They could convert the whole of India because the population was too hugh for them(also there were some brave and secular hindu rulers like Shivaji,the rajputs and the Sikhs that kept them busy else we were all doomed)

So think before you speak…

You dont do such things? Really??

The indian subcontinent has thousand of “holy shrines” of muslim saints(peers). The dargah at Ajmer, India is one such example where millions of faithful muslims from around the world come over to pray and worship at.

People who live in glass houses should throw stones at others

Yes I think you right once I saw some Hindus saying something about the Mughals forcing people to convert. Accord to Muslims the mughal invasion in self defense like every other war started by Muslims. yeah right. Muslims have their own pseudo-histories which they rant on about and do not see how absurd they are. Like Bosnian Muslim, Muslims claim that Muslims gave civilization to Europe which I utterly refuted. how can Islam have given civilization to Europe when there were highly advanced and cultured civilizations in Europe thousands of years before he advent of Islam.

Yes your right she should really think before she speaks and she should study the history of her own religion before she criticizes ours the way she has been.

 

[Steven_John]

It is Mohammad who had big orgies with his wives

You make all these wild claims … any proof to back up your claims

Muslims have their own pseudo-histories which they rant on about

That is sooooo funny

 

[DeusVult09]

**
I am happy that “The Muslim” has presented the case very beautifully that there is no God except One God and he has no parts or partners. The Muslim has proved the matter from the bible too. We know that Abraham was a strict monotheist (Unitarian). So was Moses a.s. and all the prophets of the Jewish race. Jesus was the last prophet in that line of the Jewish prophets. But the Jews did not admit him and do not do it even now.

The Jews do not admit Jesus as a good man. But the church is busy raising Jesus to the height of being a God. Three hundred years of hiding and persecution of the followers of Jesus who were all Jews did a lot of damage to the real teachings of Jesus. The Jews and the Christians are standing at opposite sides of the poles (poles apart). Islam came to decide the matter between those two great religions (Judaism and Charistianity.)

We Muslims know that the Jews downplayed (even killed and persecuted) the prophets. The christians did the opposite. They raised the rank of their prophet (Jesus) to more than what he was and made him into a God.

This controversy will continue for as long as Allah wants it to continue. Muslims are all trying hard to present the true picture to every one. It is upto all to understand. There is no compulsion. The christians try hard for Trinity i.e. Three Gods. But then they run back quickly to One God also. May Allah help those who can’t help themselves.**

The Christians did not raise Jesus to being a god if you read the bible Jesus shows his divinity when he in john 8:58 claims pre-existence by saying ”before Abraham was I” and in john 8:23he says” you are from below I am from above you are of this world I am not of this world” So Jesus clearly states he is not from this world and from heaven and claims pre-existence something impossible if he is just a prophet and a mortal man. Furthermore in John 20:28 Jesus is called god by Thomas and does he deny it ? nope he says “because you have seen me you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed". Jesus accepts being called god and this is not the exclamation “ohh my god”I have already refuted that Muslim lie using the original Greek you can read about it here
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=363167

Furthermore John 1-15 describes the word Jesus as being god and becoming flesh and dwelling amongst the Jews. And by the way this is a reference to a person not a concept, divine purpose or wisdom due to the use of masculine Greek pronouns in the passage we can be certain of that. So that’s another Muslim lie against the bible refuted.

Christians did not make Jesus god.

Its funny you quote about Jews killing the prophets. Do you know where that comes from? In luke 13:34 and Mathew 23:37 Jesus said this because he was prophecying
his own death at Jerusalem which was to come. Yet as you don’t think Jesus was killed this doesn’t really make any sense.

 

[DeusVult09]

That is sooooo funny

whats so funny? Its true Mohammad did have big orgies with his wives

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 5, Number 282:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet used to visit all his wives in one night and he had nine wives at that time.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 5, Number 268:
Narrated Qatada:
Anas bin Malik said, “The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number.” I asked Anas, “Had the Prophet the strength for it?” Anas replied, “We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men).” And Sa’id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 5, Number 270:
Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Muntathir:
on the authority of his father that he had asked 'Aisha about the saying of Ibn 'Umar(i.e. he did not like to be a Muhrim while the smell of scent was still coming from his body). 'Aisha said, “I scented Allah’s Apostle and he went round (had sexual intercourse with) all his wives, and in the morning he was Muhrim (after taking a bath).”

 

[DeusVult09]

And there are three who give testimony in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one." (1 JOHN 5:7)

This verse is known as the Johannine coma and is not found in any early Greek manuscripts. In fact its not found in any manuscripts before the 16th century in some late vulgate manuscripts. So this verse is considered to be an interpolation.

if you are looking for biblical support of the trinity Jesus himself reveals it when he says in Mathew 28:19 " go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit”

 

[Steven_John]

DeusVult09
please accept my apology to you, i stand corrected.
I had thought that an orgy was where you got more than on partner in bed with you at the same time and now excessive drinking.
I see now i did not understand the meaning of the word.
do you know what they were drinking?

 

[FatTire]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Not if s/he kills innocent people . killing any innocent person is a major sin in Islam . Fight on behalf of the oppressed people is a must.

And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, illtreated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is:

“Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help.”

( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #75)

You see what you just wrote? There is still killing involved in Islam, I mean regardless of someone is innocent or not, killing others and dying for the religion is celebrated in Islam.

And which one of your Mullahs tell you who is innocent or not? Is it the author who criticizes Islam and your founder Muhammad? Or the man who wants to convert to Christianity?

I am from a Muslim country and sadly Americans and Westerners are very delusional about Islam and are not exposed to the reality of what it is. Truth be told, I don’t hold Islam in a very good light. I have studied it and know it’s followers and the ones who are devout will not even eat from “dirty” Christian plates or shake hands with a Christian. This is not to say all Muslims are like this, many are carefree even to the point of consuming alcohol and being very lax in their obedience to Koran laws, at least the ones I know.

And yes, they do respect Jesus, but at the same time insult Him in the most vilest ways by saying that He did not die on the cross and resurrect on the 3rd day. They also respect the Virgin Mary, I know of Muslims who actually go to Catholic Churches and secretly pray to the Blessed Mother and to Christ and have told everyone that Christ has healed them, hear that? Not Allah but Christ, of course this is all here in the US, if they did that in their own countries, there would be hell to pay. Some of these Muslims have even converted to Christianity, because Christianity offers something that Islam doesn’t (the Truth being for starters) but it’s a personal relationship with God so much so we are commanded to call God “Father”, what other religion do you know, that you can be so personal with God to call Him dad and to speak to Him directly? None other! Be thankful to God you have found Catholicism and stay a Catholic, for your own good and your soul’s salvation.

So if you were to ask me, stay away from Islam and try your best to convert those who are Muslim to Christianity. Always consider the source of the information you get about from Islam, Muhammad slept with a 6 year child and that is considered normal, so what other bizarre or deranged teaching will be altered or sugar coated to make you believe that Islam is a peaceful religion.

Be very very careful of Islam, study it top to bottom, outside historical sources about Muhammad and the origin of the religion. Muslims hold the Koran to be the only non-flawed perfect book and only allow their followers to learn about their founder from that source only.

Play devil’s advocate when it comes to Islam or any philosophy you decide to dedicate your life to, even Christianity. I have, I walked away from God, was an atheist for two years and looked at both arguements for and against Christianity and that is why I am a firm believer in Christ.

If you take the same approach to Islam you will see that it is based on a heresy started by a heretical Nestorian Monk, not Muhammad. I can go on for days about Islam, long story short do your own search ask tough questions to both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars and Inshallah (to quote the Muslim) you’ll avoid this religion like the plague! Stay with Christ, he is the True God, Allah is based on the pagan moon god, Allah is NOT God, JESUS CHRIST IS!

 

[FatTire]

Please I want everyone to look up Nestorian Assyrian monk Sargis Bkheera. He is the one who originally came up with the heresy that Judas was crucified in place of Jesus. He was expelled from his monastery and went to Mecca where he meet Muhammad, and well the rest is a mixture of misinterpretation, flawed logic, and bad Bible study leading to the Koran.

This accounts for the extraordinary doctrinal similarity between some aspects of Islam and the Assyrian Church of the East. For example, according to Assyrian Church doctrine, there is no awareness of passage of time between the moment of death and final judgment; final judgment occurs immediately even though thousands of years may have passed on Earth. Islam holds this same view.