Catholic Convert Doubting

[SonCatcher]

But what about the 11th century and the great schism with the Orthodox. Luther wasn’t the first to leave.

That is an incorrect comparison. While the Protestant reformation was not the first division in the body of Christ, it was the first sustained division that resulted from a rejection of doctrine. (I hesitate to use the term heretical, since what doctrine they have is generally correct - just incomplete)

The schism with the Orthodox is mainly political in nature. Catholic and Orthodox doctrines are the same (though with different lexicons, which aggravate the political differences).

 

[Chuck1]

Maybe becuase it was all new and exciting at first you got caught up in it but now , now is the time to be content with it and relax and enjoy ?

 

[Cat_Herder]

Thank you for the links. I will check them out in due time. You suggest that I read the Bible and pray. I’ve been faithfully doing that my entire life so I will continue to do that while I struggle with discerning the Truth.

As for suggesting that God allowed apostasy in order to explain Protestantism. I don’t buy that. You said that in order for Protestants to be right then no one had the truth until Luther. But what about the 11th century and the great schism with the Orthodox.

You can’t go there without believing that Catholicism was true until the Schism, which would lock you into Orthodoxy being true. And then you must reject Protestantism. Think it through. And please relax. I’m not going to argue with you because that is not helping you.

When I spoke about Evangelicals preaching the Gospel, I’m referring to the preaching that draws sinners to convert. People need to hear that (a) God loves them; (b) each person is a sinner; (c) salvation is offerred to all through Jesus’ sacrifice. People need to repent and follow God. That’s what I was saying. Does this conflict with our Church’s teachings in any way? I’m not advocating formulaic prayers for salvation. I’m talking about a true conversion of the heart away from sin and trusting in Jesus’ sacrifice. Please tell me if this is wrong. I know Catholics that don’t know that God loves them and they don’t know that they are called to conversion. i’m not saying all Catholics are like this but the fact that there are people in the Church who don’t know the basic stuff is alarming and needs to rectified.

So then the Catholic Church needs reform but Protestants who don’t know the basic stuff get a free pass because they went to an altar call? That Is a double standard.

I take offense to your tone and accusation regarding my discomfort from the Marian consecration workshop.

What accusation? I didn’t accuse you of anything. All fear is from the devil and we all get attacked by fear. The fact that you feel that people are persecuting you when that is not true strongly suggests a psychological issue here. I don’t mean any disrespect at all by saying that. I care and I want to help but I am not the right person to help you.

If I hear people saying that they want to be Mary’s slave and that they don’t pray to Jesus but rather choose to access Him through Mary, then it sounds like they are preaching “a different Gospel”.

For you to suggest that these Catholics who devote themselves to Mary are choosing to pray to Mary instead of Jesus is just wrong. You did not hear that at the de Montfort workshop because de Montfort did not say that. What he did say is that you are scrupulous.

True Devotion to Mary 2.2.1b
Scrupulous devotees*
94. Scrupulous devotees are those who imagine they are slighting the Son by honouring the Mother. They fear that by exalting Mary they are belittling Jesus. They cannot bear to see people giving to our Lady the praises due to her and which the Fathers of the Church have lavished upon her. It annoys them to see more people kneeling before Mary’s altar than before the Blessed Sacrament, as if these acts were at variance with each other, or as if those who were praying to our Lady were not praying through her to Jesus. They do not want us to speak too often of her or to pray so often to her.
Here are some of the things they say: “What is the good of all these rosaries, confraternities and exterior devotions to our Lady? There is a great deal of ignorance in all this. It is making a mockery of religion. Tell us about those who are devoted to Jesus (and they often pronounce his name without uncovering their heads). We should go directly to Jesus, since he is our sole Mediator. We must preach Jesus; that is sound devotion.” There is some truth in what they say, but the inference they draw to prevent devotion to our Lady is very insidious. It is a subtle snare of the evil one under the pretext of promoting a greater good. For we never give more honour to Jesus than when we honour his Mother, and we honour her simply and solely to honour him all the more perfectly. We go to her only as a way leading to the goal we seek - Jesus, her Son.*
95. The Church, with the Holy Spirit, blesses our Lady first, then Jesus, “Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” Not that Mary is greater than Jesus, or even equal to him - that would be an intolerable heresy. But in order to bless Jesus more perfectly we should first bless Mary. Let us say with all those truly devoted to her, despite these false and scrupulous devotees: “O Mary, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.”*

I cannot become a created being’s slave because I belong to the Lord and He is my only Master. That’s how I look at this.

Then stop being a slave to anger and fear. Those issues will follow you regardless of your religion until you choose to deal with them. Please see a competent counselor, doctor or mental health professional. This is way too important to get resolved on a religious bulletin board.

St. Dymphna, pray for us.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Thank you for the links. I will check them out in due time. You suggest that I read the Bible and pray. I’ve been faithfully doing that my entire life so I will continue to do that while I struggle with discerning the Truth.

As for suggesting that God allowed apostasy in order to explain Protestantism. I don’t buy that. You said that in order for Protestants to be right then no one had the truth until Luther. But what about the 11th century and the great schism with the Orthodox.

You can’t go there without believing that Catholicism was true until the Schism, which would lock you into Orthodoxy being true. And then you must reject Protestantism. Think it through. And please relax. I’m not going to argue with you because that is not helping you.

I take offense to your tone and accusation regarding my discomfort from the Marian consecration workshop.

What accusation? I didn’t accuse you of anything. All fear is from the devil and we all get attacked by fear. The fact that you feel that people are persecuting you when that is not true strongly suggests a psychological issue here. I don’t mean any disrespect at all by saying that. I care and I want to help but I am not the right person to help you.

If I hear people saying that they want to be Mary’s slave and that they don’t pray to Jesus but rather choose to access Him through Mary, then it sounds like they are preaching “a different Gospel”.

The suggestion that these Catholics who devote themselves to Mary are choosing to pray to Mary instead of Jesus is just wrong. You did not hear that at the de Montfort workshop because de Montfort did not say that. What he did say is that you are scrupulous.

True Devotion to Mary 2.2.1b
Scrupulous devotees*
94. Scrupulous devotees are those who imagine they are slighting the Son by honouring the Mother. They fear that by exalting Mary they are belittling Jesus. They cannot bear to see people giving to our Lady the praises due to her and which the Fathers of the Church have lavished upon her. It annoys them to see more people kneeling before Mary’s altar than before the Blessed Sacrament, as if these acts were at variance with each other, or as if those who were praying to our Lady were not praying through her to Jesus. They do not want us to speak too often of her or to pray so often to her.
Here are some of the things they say: “What is the good of all these rosaries, confraternities and exterior devotions to our Lady? There is a great deal of ignorance in all this. It is making a mockery of religion. Tell us about those who are devoted to Jesus (and they often pronounce his name without uncovering their heads). We should go directly to Jesus, since he is our sole Mediator. We must preach Jesus; that is sound devotion.” There is some truth in what they say, but the inference they draw to prevent devotion to our Lady is very insidious. It is a subtle snare of the evil one under the pretext of promoting a greater good. For we never give more honour to Jesus than when we honour his Mother, and we honour her simply and solely to honour him all the more perfectly. We go to her only as a way leading to the goal we seek - Jesus, her Son.*
95. The Church, with the Holy Spirit, blesses our Lady first, then Jesus, “Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” Not that Mary is greater than Jesus, or even equal to him - that would be an intolerable heresy. But in order to bless Jesus more perfectly we should first bless Mary. Let us say with all those truly devoted to her, despite these false and scrupulous devotees: “O Mary, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.”*

I cannot become a created being’s slave because I belong to the Lord and He is my only Master. That’s how I look at this.

Then stop being a slave to anger and fear. Those issues will follow you regardless of your religion until you choose to deal with them. Please see a competent counselor, doctor or mental health professional. This is way too important to get resolved on a religious bulletin board.

St. Dymphna, pray for us.

 

[SetonGirl]

Wow, Cat Herder, calm down. I didn’t realize your were a clinical psychologist with a special gift to diagnose unseen people on online forums.

Seriously, I don’t think it’s helpful to accuse a poster of lashing out and having psychological problems. You also accuse me of being angry and feeling persecuted. I’m not angry about anything. And I can’t see anywhere in any of my posts where I sound angry or persecuted.

In relation to the your previous comments, I simply said I didn’t buy your explanation about Protestantism. I didn’t say the Protestants were correct. I haven’t sorted that out. I do believe that there will be Protestants in Heaven and I believe that there are solid Christian people in Protestantism. I never suggested Protestants get a free pass but I said some Protestants preach conversion from sin and faith in Jesus’ sacrifice and that was what I called the Gospel. **I was hoping someone could tell me if that definition of the Gospel is at odds with Catholic doctrine. I don’t think it is, but I’m not sure on it because it may be too simplified and I’m interested in hearing comments on that. **
My apologies if you weren’t accusing me of having demonic influences - - when you argued about what I felt in the core of my being, it felt accusatory to me since you don’t know what I felt in the core of my being and you seemed to suggest that it would be demonic to question Marian devotion. I don’t think the Protestants or the Catholics who aren’t into Marian devotions are demonically influenced. Maybe I’ve misread what you were saying. . .

You said:

“The suggestion that these Catholics who devote themselves to Mary are choosing to pray to Mary instead of Jesus is just wrong. You did not hear that at the de Montfort workshop because de Montfort did not say that. What he did say is that you are scrupulous.”

Cat Herder, how can you tell me what I heard at the Marian Consecration workshop?? You weren’t there. I didn’t say that St. Louis de Monfort said this, I merely reported what the leaders at the workshop said. I questioned one of the leaders afterwards and told her that I’ve been praying to Jesus directly my whole life so it makes me feel uncomfortable to stop doing that now. There was a woman at the workshop who made her Consecration many years ago and she said that she’s grown closer to Jesus and prays directly to him now. When she said that, two of the leaders jumped on that and questioned her on whether she still prays her Rosary. It was odd.

In any event, I think it’s hurtful to accuse a poster of having a psychological problem. I wasn’t looking to have a debate on this thread - - I’m not here to argue doctrine and see which side comes out strongest. I merely posted because I’m struggling to discern things since I seem to have lost some of my Catholic faith and I don’t know why. I was hoping to hear from others about whether this was common for converts. I have appreciated the comments that people have made on here and I’ve been pondering all of it.

I’m not scrupulous and any fear that I have comes from the fact that the Church teaches that a person is a heretic if they don’t hold fast to all the Church’s teachings. And the Church also teaches that leaving the Church can send one to Hell. So any fear I have is legit because obviously, I don’t want to be a heretic or an apostate.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I said some Protestants preach conversion from sin and faith in Jesus’ sacrifice and that was what I called the Gospel. **I was hoping someone could tell me if that definition of the Gospel is at odds with Catholic doctrine. I don’t think it is, but I’m not sure on it because it may be too simplified and I’m interested in hearing comments on that. **

Here: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm#1989

 

[UsedtoProtest]

Hello! I’m also a convert - I came into the Church two years ago from evangelical protestantism as well. And I can definitely sympathize with the sad truth that so many Catholics in the pews don’t know their faith… sadly, the day I walked into my first mass I knew more about the Catholic Church than many of the Catholics that I’ve gotten to know since then. I know it can be disheartening, and I’ll admit there have been times I’ve looked back and deeply missed the depth of community and faith that I left behind in my protestant roots… I’m on the parish council at my Church, and so I also know how it feels to feel tied to a parish. Our pastor is wonderful, but everything feels pretty dry and lifeless sometimes.

I wonder if there is a church with perpetual adoration near you? I’ve recently starting going to adoration and it has made such a difference, being able to spend time with Christ and remember the joy of His presence in the Eucharist, which is the reason I converted in the first place.

I’ll be praying for you! I’d encourage you to try to find a parish that is life-giving for you, as soon as you can!

 

[Garrett135]

Is it possible, as adopted sons and daughters of God, to be a slave to Mary?.. Are we, as members of the body of Christ, to consider another member as our master?

 

[bingabinga]

What up Seton Girly,

I think the first thing to remember in all of this is, although it is serious, and feels so torturous to be in this place you are in., God sees you as his child and he is with you in all your struggles. God is so much bigger than all of this and he sees the intenitons of our hearat. ff you feel like he is leading you into another church or denomination, then by all means, pray and think about it.

But as a non-Catholic myself, one of the things I love most about Catholicism is their ability to remain faithful to their tradition even when things don’t go exactly the way they think they should go. Us Protestants ditch our churches for all sorts of horrible reasons. Catholics may not be perfect, but at least they have a sense of faithfulness you know? Your so called “liberal” priest is just as much a loved child of God as you and if you can make peace with that and be faithful to God in that situation, you never know what kind of fruit will come out of that.

But, that being said, you do need to find extra ways of nurturing your spiritual life. It is unfair to place too much expectation on the priest to help you fulfill your own spiritual needs (not saying that you are doing this, just something to be careful of).

peace on you Seton, I hope you begin to experience comfort in this trying time for you.

 

[rmtracey]

God gave us brains to use. not to be brainwashed. Jesus Christ was a " liberal" in terms of his own society. But he was a Jew and not a “Catholic”.
You are fortunate to have a priest who is actually using his god given intellect.
If Christ today was a Catholic he would be excommunicated for not accepting man made rules. Instead he was crucified for questioning some of the established Jewish teachings.
The more things change the more they remain the same.

 

[dbreiden]

Seton Girl: You might want to look into the Cursillo movement in your diocese. It’s a great way to connect with others who recognize their need to grow in their faith, and it’s an excellent source of encouragement.
Alternatively (or maybe even concurrently), consider a different parish (while still teaching at your current parish) – especially one where the Christ Renews His Parish program is strong. I know I’ll offend some in the CRHP program by saying this, but it’s sort of like a “Cursillo Lite.”

Pray, pray, pray.
–Danny

 

[dbreiden]

A bishop is also likely to write off single protest letter as being more vent than evidence of a problem. If a number of parishioners write letters citing their own objections, it may improve the odds of action.

Is it unheard of to request to meet with a bishop?

–Danny

 

[Chez]

Dear SetonGirl,

I will leave the particulars of your Pastor and Bishop to the more knowledgeable.

I know as a Catholic I should be more patient and understanding.
I am working on it.
However, I can’t tell you how tired I am of hearing of all the glowing, wonderful virtues of Protestants, and the lowly sinful ways of Catholics.

We are ALL sinners!.. One of the differences between the Catholic Church and the Protestants, is that the Catholic Church doesn’t shun Her members at the first sign of imperfection!

Please remember!.. The Church is not on this earth to heal the Saints.

Heresies within the Church have been around for 2000 years.
It takes people of strong Faith,
(by God’s Grace of course),
and God’s promise that, “the gates if hell will not prevail” against His Church, to crush those heresies!

You wrote that you teach the Catechism… Then you know that we Catholics are called to carry our Crosses with Grace, dignity, and without complaint.

Jesus wants spiritually strong people in His Church, to inform the misinformed, lift the weak… And to work very, very hard at changing the hearts and minds of those who would tear down His Church from within.i

It sounds to me as though you have been given a Cross to carry… Are you going put it down and walk away?
Or, will you pick it up and carry it?

I’m praying for you!
Chez

 

[Chez]

God gave us brains to use. not to be brainwashed. Jesus Christ was a " liberal" in terms of his own society. But he was a Jew and not a “Catholic”.
You are fortunate to have a priest who is actually using his god given intellect.
If Christ today was a Catholic he would be excommunicated for not accepting man made rules. Instead he was crucified for questioning some of the established Jewish teachings.
The more things change the more they remain the same.

Too bad you were not there with Jesus before He went through all that trouble of “brainwashing” His Apostles.
Just think!.. You could have saved Him from persecution, beating, mocking and being spat upon only to await Crucifixion!
Wow! You could have saved Him all that trouble with your infinite wisdom by suggesting that He simply tell us, “use the brains My Father gave you to figure things out on your own”!

No… I think maybe you should leave those decisions to Jesus.
Instead of re-writing history, you might try reading about the history of Christianity, and the Church that Christ left for us.

I think you will be surprised as to what you will lean!

Like it or not…
I’ll be praying for you as we’ll.
Chez

 

[gkoomen]

Dear Convert, I really empathize with you. At the risk of overusing the word, consider yourself on a journey and you have hit one of the rough patches. I have longed for consistency in my life and really have not found it in the church. Oh, it is there, but you really have to look for it.

Once our family decided to climb Harney peak, kind of a smallish mountain in the Black Hills. Easy peasy = only 3 miles on a clearly defined track… Our young sons were eager, DH and I were eager so off we went. It was easy, then we noticed that we were going slightly downhill for the first mile, then we started slightly uphill. Not as easy. The last mile was I swear, straight up. OK it wasn’t, but it sure felt like it. this parallels in some respect my own journey.

When I was young, I was an enthusiatic Catholic, then reality hit and it became harder. There were things happening in the world that I did not understand and at which I grieved unsupported by “the Church” which at that time was not changing fast enough for me. Later I came to see that the pace of change was right and my problem was one of not placing Jesus at the center of my life,rather looking at externals. That became part of the straight uphill part!

I will support the poster who said get with a spiritual director. This may be a really important time for you. Increase rather than decrease your prayer life. Ask Jesus to lead you. Try to love those you are journeying with rather that being fearful, critical or disappointed - they are “in process” also.

I hope you find some like minded people to support you, but if not, Christ will.

By the way, I do not find your priest so heretical - Women have not always been treated well in the Church and we have some “breakout saints” to thank for the change - Dorothy Day leaps to mind. I don’t at all mind calling God mother at times. There is a feminine principle in God. He/She is really not bounded by our understanding. Maybe in an off-putting way your priest is calling you to greater conversion, love, and unity.

God bless you, Keep pounding up that hill!

I DO have a great problem with Calling God ‘She’. It is not because He is exclusively masculine - in the OT He ascribes to Himself the qualities of both a loving Mother and a loving Father. But Jesus settled this issue by speaking of His Father; and telling us to call Him ‘Our Father’. He wants a family - He has given us a Mother. We are HIS adopted children. WONDERFUL! I’m sure the many women saints would concur. We have too many ‘free-thinking Catholics’ today who see no need to accept what the Magisterium teaches. I am a recent convert too; and when I came into the Church, I understood that it was required of me to do so.
Our priest is quite ‘relaxed’ about such things; but I am fortunate to be surrounded by good friends who remain faithful. I would suggest looking into a Third Order of a religious order, like the Franciscans or Carmelites. I am being inducted into the Secular Carmelites. It is wonderfully orthodox; and there is much support. I highly recommend it. There will be one somewhere near you.

 

[SonCatcher]

Is it unheard of to request to meet with a bishop?

–Danny

The bishop is directly responsible for the spiritual well-being of all Catholics in his diocese (though he delegates some portion of that to the priests and deacons who assist him). It is in his best interest to meet with those of his flock who require his attention.

Keep in mind that with so many thousands in the typical diocese and other regular duties it may take some time to get such a meeting, but it is certainly possible. Most people communicate by letter for convenience.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

God gave us brains to use. not to be brainwashed. Jesus Christ was a " liberal" in terms of his own society. But he was a Jew and not a “Catholic”.
You are fortunate to have a priest who is actually using his god given intellect.
If Christ today was a Catholic he would be excommunicated for not accepting man made rules. Instead he was crucified for questioning some of the established Jewish teachings.
The more things change the more they remain the same.

My friend, Jesus was not a liberal. He is I AM. He is God. The Pharisees had made many laws that were NOT of God, and indeed even Moses made more laws than just the Ten Commandments. But Christ came to fulfill the Law (not the laws of man). The Commandments still apply, and they flow from the Greatest Commandment. The faith and moral teaching of the Church flows from these Commandments.

Jesus also prayed in the temples and read scripture, and celebrated Passover, as was tradition. He fulfilled the Ten Commandments. He even gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sin and teach with His authority. We believe that His Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, as He promised, and that we shall not err in faith and morals. Our dogma will never be false because it flows from God. This is one of the most basic tenants of Catholicism, and if you believe the Church is capable of preaching false doctrine, or that it is not required of its members to believe in dogma, then you should perhaps seek instruction from an orthodox priest. The views you hold are not Catholic at all, but are heterodox and prevent communion with the Church.

 

[rmtracey]

Too bad you were not there with Jesus before He went through all that trouble of “brainwashing” His Apostles.
Just think!.. You could have saved Him from persecution, beating, mocking and being spat upon only to await Crucifixion!
Wow! You could have saved Him all that trouble with your infinite wisdom by suggesting that He simply tell us, “use the brains My Father gave you to figure things out on your own”!

No… I think maybe you should leave those decisions to Jesus.
Instead of re-writing history, you might try reading about the history of Christianity, and the Church that Christ left for us.

I think you will be surprised as to what you will lean!

Like it or not…
I’ll be praying for you as we’ll.

Chez

Jesus was a Jew and died as a Jew. He was crucified because he questioned and upset the Jewish Hierarchy. Jesus was not a catholic or a protestant or a christian. As a man he was thinking beyond the fundamentalism of the Jewish religion. As Catholics I think we should emulate this.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Jesus was a Jew and died as a Jew. He was crucified because he questioned and upset the Jewish Hierarchy. Jesus was not a catholic or a protestant or a christian. As a man he was thinking beyond the fundamentalism of the Jewish religion. As Catholics I think we should emulate this.

His death was demanded by the Jewish authorities because he claimed to be God–thats Catholic dogma, a “fundamental” if you will. That’s what upset Caiphas, Annas, and the rest.

Pilate and the Roman authority was equally culpable by aquiessing to “keep the peace”–knowingly executeng an innocent man.

Jew and Gentile, Monotheists and Pagans–He died for all of our sins.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Jesus was a Jew and died as a Jew. He was crucified because he questioned and upset the Jewish Hierarchy. Jesus was not a catholic or a protestant or a christian. As a man he was thinking beyond the fundamentalism of the Jewish religion. As Catholics I think we should emulate this.

We have the terms ‘bishop’ and ‘deacon’ in the Bible, as well as presbyter (early priests). As early as St. Ignatius and St. Clement of Rome, we have these Church leaders telling the congregations to be obedient to the Bishop and that where the Bishop is, the Church is. Remember in Acts 15, the Apostles and Church leaders decided doctrine, not the congregation. I really don’t see a problem with Church hierarchy, seeing that people have been obedient to the Apostles and their successors (Bishops) since the beginning. Why should we change this, 2,000 years later?