Catholic Converts/Reverts: Why is there so much fruit in Protestantism?

[Nita]

Not a bad idea. They lay a strong foundation and we can be very good at building on it.

The problem with it is that along with the good things they would be taught, there are all the erroneous things. These errors of course vary according to denomination. Today, especially in morality issues, they would be taught many errors. Almost all denominations teach contraception and divorce are okay. More and more are teaching abortion, living a homosexual life style, … are okay.

 

[TEPO]

Oh, I remember the day this thread was started. It bothered me then and it bothers me still.

I just wonder what is meant by “fruit” in the OP… Does that mean smiles? (I don’t get it)

 

[Church_Militant]

The thing that many seem to miss is that nearly all religions and philosophies have certain aspects of truth that they share with the Catholic faith, and these are the starting points for our dialog with them.

The various fruits of Protestantism are actually very limited in comparison to the fulness of truth within the Catholic faith and (IMO) are sometimes overblown by their own adherents. By this I mean that most often I encounter those who wish to compare the best and most faithful of n-Cs to the worst of Catholics, which is an apples and oranges fallacy. If they wish to compare best to best (which I have yet to see happen) then I would expect a comparison to Catholics like Edith Stein, Maximilian Kolbe, Francs of Assisi, and Therese of Liseaux.

If the truth be told, the fruits of various Protestant communities is less than suggested by their proponents and ultimately about the same as those of faithful Catholics, with the caveat that generally the n-Cs make more noise about it.

 

[jenwha]

This is a great question and one worthy of deep reflection. As someone who was raised Catholic, was very earnest and involved, but then left to become very involved in Protestantism, I would say that focusing on stylistic differences between worship services doesn’t enlighten because there’s beauty and grace in worship services on both sides, and also plenty of Catholic masses that can seem very difficult to get through. The main differences are not about liturgical versus non-liturgical worship.

There is a lot of spiritual fruit in Protestantism. There are lots and lots of Protestants who truly walk with the Lord and have rich spiritual lives through faith in and obedience to Christ. This is accomplished by the Holy Spirit and the grace of God, as there is only one means by which any of us human beings can know Him and love Him truly.

I love the line in the above post about God writing straight with crooked lines. It’s so true. And I think it’s a mistake for Catholics to take the tack that anything and everything deemed “Catholic” is representative of the “fullness of grace and truth.” There are many ways in which the culture of Catholicism does not serve the Gospel or the conversion of hearts. There are ways in which the canons do not, or may not, do a great job of facilitating spiritual growth of the Body. There are ways in which clergy and religious teach poorly, wrongly, don’t properly catechize, etc. There are practices in a lot of parishes that may well be idolatrous regarding Mary because people haven’t been taught properly and spiritual practice drifts far away from doctrine.

And more than anything, Scott Hahn put it wonderfully on Marcus Grodi’s program–many Catholics have been sacramentalized but not evangelized. Scripture is clear, and the Catechism confirms, that all the sacraments in the world will not do you any good without true repentance and conversion of heart. As someone who grew up in Catholic circles, I saw more people than not readily claiming the label of Catholic and participating in the Sacraments, without any real conversion of heart or perceptible desire to worship God. And unfortunately, this state of affairs was rarely challenged by the teachers, clergy, or religious.

For those reasons, if I had a new convert, though I have “come home” to Catholicism, and have seen many improvements, I probably would send them to a Protestant church–more likely than not non-denominational or Pentecostal. The reason is that, at the end of the day, whomever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. There is a lot of baggage that the Church needs to work through and a lot of people just are not going to attend a Mass, for whatever reason. If I have the opportunity to bring someone into the knowledge of Christ, I don’t want the barrier to be clergy scandals or the difference between latria and dulia. But more than that, people need to be evangelized and discipled, and those things are sadly not emphasized in many Catholic parishes, but they are in (Evangelical) Protestant churches.

You summed up my thoughts exactly. What it boils down to for me, is that Catholics and Protestants should be a lot less snarky towards each other and realize we are all brethren in Christ.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

The thing that many seem to miss is that nearly all religions and philosophies have certain aspects of truth that they share with the Catholic faith, and these are the starting points for our dialog with them.

The various fruits of Protestantism are actually very limited in comparison to the fulness of truth within the Catholic faith and (IMO) are sometimes overblown by their own adherents. By this I mean that most often I encounter those who wish to compare the best and most faithful of n-Cs to the worst of Catholics, which is an apples and oranges fallacy. If they wish to compare best to best (which I have yet to see happen) then I would expect a comparison to Catholics like Edith Stein, Maximilian Kolbe, Francs of Assisi, and Therese of Liseaux.

If the truth be told, the fruits of various Protestant communities is less than suggested by their proponents and ultimately about the same as those of faithful Catholics, with the caveat that generally the n-Cs make more noise about it.

Another consideration is that exciting electrifying services (as they aren’t really liturgies) are not “fruits.” They are external appearances. What happens during the rest of the week? Compare the Catholics and Evangelicals THEN. But who would dare do that?

When a new community was started by the Apostles, there was an excitement and fervor in that community which was remarkable. But as time wore on, the community fell prey to human failings (see Revelations)

But nothing can change the fact that Catholics worship God around the world in Truth and Spirit through their High Priest Jesus Christ, and offer a perfect and pleasing Sacrifice to God. THAT IS REAL WORSHIP. THAT IS WHAT MATTERS in the Kingdom of Heaven. It is Catholics that partake of that Sacrifice as commanded by Jesus. Fidelity to the teachings of Jesus are what separates Catholics from me-and-my-Bible Christians.

If someone is so weak in Faith, that they need the hoopla of Evangelical drama and entertainment, then that is fine. Maybe they will eventually grow to the point of wanting more depth, and seeking the fountainhead of Truth.

 

[trevor1055]

I am a Catholic convert from the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod as an adult; however, my family reared me in the pentecostal / charismatic movements. It appears to me that the following “enticements” draw people to these protestant churches.

(1) Entertainment. The music is more akin to a rock concert, both in sound and in expression. Many of the pastors are excellent public speakers that would rival the most masterful politicians.

(2) Marketing. Radio, TV, billboards … all across my part of the country (Texas and the southwest), these churches market their “product.” A church in Amarillo has received the annual award from the local advertising association several times.

(3) Psuedo-psychology. I won’t mention a particular pastor of a 25,000-member church in Houston; however, when the focus is always on “reaping the benefit of God’s promises” rather than on yielding to the Cross, people flock to it. It’s somewhat akin to what I call the “stock-market theory of Christianity” – and it is a travesty.

(4) No authority. This is at the heart of protestantism (in my opinion) in the good ole USA. People do not want other people telling them what something (the Bible) does or does not mean.

These are just some brief thoughts, based upon my own experiences and observations. I am working to change that though here in Dallas!

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

I am a Catholic convert from the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod as an adult; however, my family reared me in the pentecostal / charismatic movements. It appears to me that the following “enticements” draw people to these protestant churches.

(1) Entertainment. The music is more akin to a rock concert, both in sound and in expression. Many of the pastors are excellent public speakers that would rival the most masterful politicians.

(2) Marketing. Radio, TV, billboards … all across my part of the country (Texas and the southwest), these churches market their “product.” A church in Amarillo has received the annual award from the local advertising association several times.

(3) Psuedo-psychology. I won’t mention a particular pastor of a 25,000-member church in Houston; however, when the focus is always on “reaping the benefit of God’s promises” rather than on yielding to the Cross, people flock to it. It’s somewhat akin to what I call the “stock-market theory of Christianity” – and it is a travesty.

(4) No authority. This is at the heart of protestantism (in my opinion) in the good ole USA. People do not want other people telling them what something (the Bible) does or does not mean.

These are just some brief thoughts, based upon my own experiences and observations. I am working to change that though here in Dallas!

Great post!

 

[bettyg51]

When you remember that the Mass makes Jesus present, body and blood, soul and divinity, then it is only right that we approach the altar with the greatest possible reverence. Who are we to deserve so great a gift?
We act as if the Mass is all about us, when it should be all about God. We are self-centered when we should be humbled before the Almighty. Our music should express this awe, praise, thanksgiving and contrition that is due to God alone. We are not there to please ourselves. We are there to celebrate our salvation.
I find Protestant services empty because the climatic moment is a man preaching. At a Catholic Mass, the climatic moment is receiving the body and blood of Jesus truly present in the Eucharist. Nothing can compare to that.

 

[trevor1055]

When you remember that the Mass makes Jesus present, body and blood, soul and divinity, then it is only right that we approach the altar with the greatest possible reverence. Who are we to deserve so great a gift?
We act as if the Mass is all about us, when it should be all about God. We are self-centered when we should be humbled before the Almighty. Our music should express this awe, praise, thanksgiving and contrition that is due to God alone. We are not there to please ourselves. We are there to celebrate our salvation.
I find Protestant services empty because the climatic moment is a man preaching. At a Catholic Mass, the climatic moment is receiving the body and blood of Jesus truly present in the Eucharist. Nothing can compare to that.

BettyG, I agree with you 100%, which is why I am so blessed to receive Heaven on earth with each Mass, as Scott Hahn phrases it. Nothing compares to the Mass!

 

[Rosinante]

Interesting thread (though I realize i’m rather late chiming in…).

My wife and I have similar discussions about this topic constantly.

From my vantage point, this has always been a mystery to me. For all my knocking of protestant theology, I know many wonderful people–friends–who are protestant. Make it hard to ‘hate’ (for lack of a better word). It’s just easier to villify things that are foreign to us, than when ‘wrongness’ presents with a pleasant face.

She goes with me and the kids to Cat. mass…and ineveitably comes out taking some side-swipe along the lines of "it was boring,’ ‘why didn’t the priest talk about this current event or that’…‘the sermon was uninspiring’…‘the music was subdued, etc.’

I attend her services (once in a blue moon), and come out feeling like I just atttended an hour long info-mercial, played against very loud music. I don’t see how anyone can ‘pray’ in such an environment, or commune with the Lord (frankly I find it rather nauseating, to me, but…).

Or, as another friend of my put it–he’s hispanic, married an American WASP–and upon leaving the service, commented: “…that’s a very nice business.”

Bottom line–pro. service’s–particularly the evangeilical variety–play to surficial stimuli. Hence the loud music, the fancy attire, the television smiles, etc.–in order to create within their attendees, and need to be similarly stimulated regularly (and therefore inclined to come back).

Catholicism–being based upon what Christ actually taught, and the way he taught it (as he taught his Apostles…)—is geared towards interior conversion. Hence Catholic Mass will naturally seem foriegn and boring to a non-Cat., since it’s not aimed at stiumlating the outer senses, but rather requires a sacramental foundation, for interior reception.

VIVAT JESUS!

 

[MarkInOregon]

While I do not have a lot of experience with protestant churches–the ones that I have experienced–are usually smaller than my local Catholic parish and have usually been centered around a particular pastor and his teachings or sermon ability. Often they have are made up of a group of like minded and socio-economically similar individuals. Regardless they have been smaller congregations of devoted Christians–those who are not devoted don’t follow the pastor to the new Church. The other kind of protestant church–with which I have had very limited contact–is one of those larger churches with fancy audio visual equipment where the whole service seems more like an entertainment event than a worship service–I don’t have enough experience there to comment on the percentage of those people who are committed to Christ versus those who are there because of the social/entertainment component.

What I will say is that in the average Catholic parish you can find the committed, enthusiastic, involved and welcoming parishioners–if you look. They are there–they are just spread out over 3 or 4 or 5 masses depending on the size of your parish. Your local Catholic parish is made up of a diverse group of people from all walks of life, from all social and economic backgrounds who are at various points in their faith journey. You don’t normally find that at your local protestant church–at least not at the ones I am familiar with–which seem to contain a smaller subset usually consisting of the more devoted.

So I think it is unfair to claim that there is no fruit in the Catholic Church. I think I might even argue that the fact that we keep so many–marginal Catholics–at least somewhat in contact with the Church–is a fruit, At least if they keep in even occassional contact with the Church–then the opportunity to be touched by and grow in the faith is available. If on the other hand I don’t show the proper enthusiasm and am shunned or if my emotional high wanes and I lose contact with the small protestant congregation–what pulls me back? What keeps me connected?

Peace,
Mark

 

[Dolezal]

Why is there so much fruit in Protestantism if they do not have the fullness of the gospel?

From How Can Catholicism Be True When Catholics Are So Dead?:

I agree with the basic teachings and traditions of the Catholic Church. But, I am still in the Baptist church. That is because I don’t see enough fruits coming from the Catholic Church.

Actually, it’s an individual (not a church) that’s supposed to produce good fruit. A church can only proclaim the Gospel and introduce people to the One Who alone can make them bear fruit, but it can’t make people believe its teachings, and it can’t make people live its life. Good fruit, then, is how we tell if an individual is a faithful disciple. The fact is, you can find plenty of good fruit in the Catholic Church, and you can find plenty of good fruit in the various Protestant churches, too. And that’s because the secret to bearing fruit is to have a living, vital relationship with Jesus Christ, who is the source of all grace and life. And because the Catholic Church has been endowed with the fullness of the means of grace that Christ established, a Catholic is able to have the closest possible relationship with Jesus, including even the reality of physical communion with Him.

But notice I say, “is able to have,” not “is guaranteed to have.” There are indeed plenty of people who call themselves Catholic, but who refuse to believe the Church’s teachings, refuse to obey its precepts, and refuse to live the life it calls them to live. Not surprisingly, these people aren’t magically converted into living saints just by walking through the Church door. So, if you want to look for fruit, be sure you look on the tree. You can’t expect to find fruit on the dried-up branches that have severed themselves from the tree, and that are strewn all about it. I’ll be the first to admit that the Catholic faith doesn’t work if you don’t practice it. It doesn’t work by osmosis, or by genetics, or by proximity. You actually have to believe it, and live it. You have to have a living relationship with the Lord Jesus in order to bear fruit, and many “Catholics” have rejected that relationship, despite being given every opportunity to embrace it.

Check out the rest of the article as it deals with your question in further detail.

If you had to recommend a church to a non-believing friend, would you recommend your own parish, or would you advise them to attend an on-fire non-denominational church where they would be loved, supported, and converted, etc. (secretly hoping to convert them later to Catholicism once they had accepted Jesus)?

I would not recommend a church in my parish to a non-believing friend because he or she would simply not be introduced to the Catholic faith. I have to travel quite a bit for a Mass without liturgical abuses and a priest that hears confession. But I can tell you from my own experience that churches with good orthodox priests are vibrant, young, and full of activities. As the article above says, the individual is supposed to produce the good fruit. A pastor not faithful to the Church’s teaching does not make many saints.

I would introduce him to a good parish and recommend a deep study of Catholicism, Church history, history, and philosophy.

 

[cupofjoe]

My personal experiences with evangelical churches is that while they seem more vibrant its only because they excel at creating a subculture. I’ve spent many years in these churches from high school till recently when I rediscovered Catholicism and to be honest true discipleship and genuine fellowship was rather rare. I spent many years going through the motions of going to Bible Studies and upbeat services but it rarely had any real impact on my day to day life.

Lets not forget historically the Catholic Church has had a much larger impact on the greater culture through art, music, social services, education, literature and morals. Evangelical churches come no where near the level of historic impact Catholicism has.

Catholicism done right is the most beautiful thing in this world and even if a “true” Catholic is rare they are still out there. Beside wide is the path to destruction living for Christ is taking up your cross.

 

[khuldar]

I would not recommend a church in my parish to a non-believing friend because he or she would simply not be introduced to the Catholic faith. I have to travel quite a bit for a Mass without liturgical abuses and a priest that hears confession. But I can tell you from my own experience that churches with good orthodox priests are vibrant, young, and full of activities. As the article above says, the individual is supposed to produce the good fruit. A pastor not faithful to the Church’s teaching does not make many saints.

This sounds awfully like the Catholic church in my parish. Seems like you’ve hit the (well at least one) nail on the head… Is it just me or are there alot of parishes around the place at the mo?

Being a convert from Protestantism as it’s been stated above the Catholic Mass is more directed to internal growth whereas Prot. churches are more directed to the “Wow look at me” factor. The songs sung seem to be directed to whip attendees up into a frenzy & alot of the time in my experience “Preachers” can "Preach without mentioning the bible once. Or they take one verse and have an eight week series on it. Never really made sense to me at the time and still doesn’t now.

On the flip side of that it’s taken me a while to realise that my growth comes from internal stimulus via outside sources… Not some flashy light show

Once the Mass has been explained it’s a beautiful thing, if we as Catholics get more in touch with the beauty of Mass our Fruit will shine out more. Especially if we understand what all parts of the Mass are designed to do & the history behind them etc…

 

[PJM]

=Dolezal;

Originally Posted by Randy Carson
Why is there so much fruit in Protestantism if they do not have the fullness of the gospel?

From How Can Catholicism Be True When Catholics Are So Dead?

I agree with the basic teachings and traditions of the Catholic Church. But, I am still in the Baptist church. That is because I don’t see enough fruits coming from the Catholic Church

I’d like to breifly respond to both of these comments which I sall call #1` and #2

REPLY to #1

By “fruits” I guessing you mean membership?
There are mutiple thousands of differing Protestant communions: simply put one can find one that suits THEM [meaning does not cause them to alter their current life style and practices]; or if not start their own new church. Because Catholics have and therefore are restricted by the singular truths of the Bible and Christ; we conform; NOT reform

REPLY to #2

This idea that the CC is somehow dead; inactive or not evangelizing is simply silly and unproveable IMO.

This FORUM itself is a VERY active form of evangelization:thumbsup:

It is the people within the Church that are called to evangelize; to live our faith publically and share it when ever GOD presents the opportunity. FAITH; true Faith can only be granted by God.

Every parish I personally am aware of has Bible studies; religious education classes; both for kids and adults; and MANY volueenteers that do a varity of task cheerfully and freely give of themselves.

I simply do not buy into this rumor that we catholics do nothing of importance. Is enough being done? NO! So if your complaining BUT not making a difference; RETHINK your priorities.

 

[GraceUnderFire]

As a convert from Protestantism, the Catholic church is NOT dead. What I see is the utmost reverence paid to the presence of Christ in the tabernacle. I feel very spiritually nourished each Sunday when I attend mass. There is nothing boring about mass or Catholic worship. Those who find it so probably don’t understand what’s going on.

 

[LilyM]

I don’t think that’s a fair or charitable construal of actual Protestant doctrine on the whole. There are just as many fornicators sitting in Catholic pews as anywhere else.

Yes, but those fornicators will not have their sins whitewashed, or worse still actively blessed by their priest as Prince Charles and Camilla’s adultery has been - and by the Archbishop of Canterbury no less.