Catholic Converts Struggle to Overcome Protestant Mindsets

[seabird3579]

I would like to open for discussion the issue of “protestant mindsets” and how they are a struggle for new Catholic converts.

Here are some personal deductions that no doubt others may have observed and wondered about also. The reason I bring this issue up is because I see that struggle take place daily on these forums.

Briefly, my background is a cradle Catholic, left the Church for 10 years in my 30s and returned to the Church in my early 40s. I love my Catholic Faith and treasure it now more than I ever have before.

Having spent 10 years in various protestant and non-denominational churches, I can recognize a “mindset” that goes back to a protestant (vs. catholic) way of thinking and viewing the world. Many times our new converts are not even aware that they are thinking with a ‘mindset.’ Many of them are just beginning to grow in Catholicism and probably are quite overwhelmed with subjects such as the Real Presence, Mary and the Immaculate Conception, and Papal Authority. These are all very good things to wrestle with and it will no doubt, take a “lifetime” to contemplate their mysteries.

The ‘mindset’ I am referring to has to do with Faith. Traditionally, it falls upon each protestant to have to decipher for him or herself what ‘exactly’ do I believe, based on my knowledge of how I perceive scripture in this instance. Though a number of protestant churches have bishops and designated lines of authority – my experience has been Each individual decides for him or herself the final conclusion on any interpretation of scripture or morals.

This is not the case with Catholicism. We have a teaching authority within the Magisterium. Our issues are “settled” unless and until the Magisterium finds a fuller way of elaborating on a truth already known but yet unexpressed.

Mindsets that I have observed in protestanism that don’t have a Catholic counterpart are: 1) Prosperity Gospel – goes something like the “rich are blessed by God, the poor are poor due to sin or some defect,” 2) “Feeling good equates to being good.” 3) “Denying yourself material possesions will not promote spiritual holiness and may even be a work of the devil.”

In general, one major difficulty that a new convert may have is finding out that material possessions are not a sign of whether God has blessed you or not.

The gospel of “go sell what you own, give to the poor, pick up your cross and follow Me” is probably by far, the hardest for most converts to perceive. For that we all have patience and forgiveness.

But it is imperative that converts realize they may be dealing with a “mindset” from their past which may be warring with their desire to become fully engulfed in Catholicism.

 

[jesusluv]

My wife and I are coming into the church from a “the Catholics are idol worshipers and the church is the whore of babylon”.

I still find some of the anti-christ/whore of babylon stuff creeping in from time to time. It is more of a quick freakout where I think “what if they’re right?”, but I get over it fairly quickly. My wife has a harder time with it, but there is definately a mindset that is stuck on us.

 

[Contarini]

seabird3579:

Mindsets that I have observed in protestanism that don’t have a Catholic counterpart are: 1) Prosperity Gospel – goes something like the “rich are blessed by God, the poor are poor due to sin or some defect,” 2) “Feeling good equates to being good.” 3) “Denying yourself material possesions will not promote spiritual holiness and may even be a work of the devil.”

In general, one major difficulty that a new convert may have is finding out that material possessions are not a sign of whether God has blessed you or not.

The gospel of “go sell what you own, give to the poor, pick up your cross and follow Me” is probably by far, the hardest for most converts to perceive. For that we all have patience and forgiveness.

The “prosperity Gospel” is alien to mainstream, historic Protestantism. Some people (such as the famous sociologist Max Weber) have identified a form of it with Calvinism, but even Weber admitted that this is not Calvin himself, and Weber’s interpretation of the Puritans (on which he based much of his position) is controversial.

Calvin, in his Institutes (2.10.10-13), proves that the Old Testament saints hoped for eternal life (over against people who said that they only looked for temporal rewards) by pointing out just how miserable their lives on earth were. These are not the words of someone who believed in the prosperity Gospel.

John Wesley believed that if you keep any material possessions beyond what you absolutely need you are robbing God and the poor.

The 19th-century evangelical missionary Hudson Taylor wrote: “WE might naturally have thought that if there was one thing in the life of the LORD JESUS CHRIST which belonged to Him alone, it was His cross-bearing. To guard against so natural a mistake, the HOLY GHOST has taken care in gospel and in epistle to draw our special attention to the oneness of the believer with CHRIST in cross-bearing; and also to prevent misunderstanding as to the character of Christian cross-bearing, and the constancy of its obligation. The LORD JESUS, in the words we are considering, teaches us that if any man, no matter who he may be, will be His disciple, he must — not he may — deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow his LORD.”

These are the voices of authentic Protestantism. The “prosperity gospel” is a hideous aberration.

Edwin

 

[Matt16_18]

seabird3579:

Traditionally, it falls upon each protestant to have to decipher for him or herself what ‘exactly’ do I believe, based on my knowledge of how I perceive scripture in this instance.

The papacy of the believer …

 

[seabird3579]

Contarini:

The “prosperity Gospel” is alien to mainstream, historic Protestantism. Some people (such as the famous sociologist Max Weber) have identified a form of it with Calvinism, but even Weber admitted that this is not Calvin himself, and Weber’s interpretation of the Puritans (on which he based much of his position) is controversial.

Calvin, in his Institutes (2.10.10-13), proves that the Old Testament saints hoped for eternal life (over against people who said that they only looked for temporal rewards) by pointing out just how miserable their lives on earth were. These are not the words of someone who believed in the prosperity Gospel.

John Wesley believed that if you keep any material possessions beyond what you absolutely need you are robbing God and the poor.

The 19th-century evangelical missionary Hudson Taylor wrote: “WE might naturally have thought that if there was one thing in the life of the LORD JESUS CHRIST which belonged to Him alone, it was His cross-bearing. To guard against so natural a mistake, the HOLY GHOST has taken care in gospel and in epistle to draw our special attention to the oneness of the believer with CHRIST in cross-bearing; and also to prevent misunderstanding as to the character of Christian cross-bearing, and the constancy of its obligation. The LORD JESUS, in the words we are considering, teaches us that if any man, no matter who he may be, will be His disciple, he must — not he may — deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow his LORD.”

These are the voices of authentic Protestantism. The “prosperity gospel” is a hideous aberration.

Edwin

Thank you for the clarification. Unfortunately most of the churches preaching on t.v. and that have sprung up in the last 50 years, seem to lean heavy on the “prosperity gospel.” What do you think has led to this aberration as you so aptly describe?

 

[seabird3579]

Matt16_18:

The papacy of the believer …

well, you are correct, they are left to be their own interpreter, judge and jury, having no authoritative body to lean on. Now, I say this with complete compassion because if you think about it, most protestants, like most catholics, are born into families that subscribe to a certain set of religious beliefs.

So through no fault of their own making, they are left to have to decide these major issues, theologically, that the Catholic church under the secure guidance of the Holy Spirit, has come to terms with.

I have a great deal of compassion for people having gone through what the average protestant has gone through deciphering very important issues.

My only reason for bringing it up is to bring a closer awareness to the fact that, having become a Catholic, they have come in out of the rain. To some degree they can take off their “heavy weather” gear, kick their shoes off and “relax” by the Fire. Not that there won’t be trials and tribulations as a Catholic, certainly there will be. But the Lions, Tigers and Bears are now gone and you are Home.

Welcome, and may the Peace of God rest in your souls as you grow in the fullness of God’s grace and wisdom.

 

[Maranajewell]

The only thing I can add to this thread is that it is the “prosperity gospel” that has lead me into the Church! I hope that the prosperity gospel will be a short lived fad that dies out soon before it ruins more lives.

 

[seabird3579]

jesusluv:

My wife and I are coming into the church from a “the Catholics are idol worshipers and the church is the whore of babylon”.

I still find some of the anti-christ/whore of babylon stuff creeping in from time to time. It is more of a quick freakout where I think “what if they’re right?”, but I get over it fairly quickly. My wife has a harder time with it, but there is definately a mindset that is stuck on us.

Dear jesusluv, that has got to be difficult especially if you came to believe it at a younger age. The best thing I could recommend is some of the great Catholic apologetic books out by Patrick Madrid and Karl Keating. They will really help you set the record straight in your own mind, so your spirit can begin to heal. Reading such books like “Surprised by Truth” (Patrick Madrid) and “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” (Karl Keating) and then followed by beautiful spiritual explanations of all things Catholic like Scott Hahn’s “Hail Holy Queen” and the “Lamb’s Supper” – all of these books will help bring healing through understanding.

May the Peace of God settle in your hearts and “settle” your hearts.

Brenda

 

[mastda]

seabird3579:

Thank you for the clarification. Unfortunately most of the churches preaching on t.v. and that have sprung up in the last 50 years, seem to lean heavy on the “prosperity gospel.” What do you think has led to this aberration as you so aptly describe?

The “prosperity gospel.” is so popular because the target audience is captive.
We are a greedy society with Lotto and Gambling booths at every corner. We are a vain society with Plastice Surgeons and Botox injection clinics at every corner. We are a lustful society with Adult stores and 24 hour a day porn on demand channels. We want everything instant, instant money, instant beauty and instant sex. We stand in front of a microwave and yell for it to hurry up. We have no idea how to save money and we do not want to wait for marriage. I hope you get my point, its all gimme, gimme gimme, with no sacrifice at all.

So here comes some “prosperity gospel” preacher who says all you have to do is concieve and believe and you will achieve, you are hooked. I was for almost 6 years until I was liberated.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

seabird3579:

I would like to open for discussion the issue of “protestant mindsets” and how they are a struggle for new Catholic converts.

…"…
Post has been edited in the interests of space…go to originating post in this thread, Today - 11.58am.

…"… For that we all have patience and forgiveness.

But it is imperative that converts realize they may be dealing with a “mindset” from their past which may be warring with their desire to become fully engulfed in Catholicism.

Hi there Seabird3579…your Post reveals a very astute observation I think.

If one belongs to a religion for one for some time one becomes conditioned, which means that ‘mindsets’ are conditioned into one’s thinking and are almost automatic (or indeed can be quite automatic and unconscious).
If one has been condiotioned and we all are to some degree or other by religion, culture, society, environment etc., these conditionings are very hard to break…very hard!
People who have converted from non Catholic religions hence, need to be handled with gentleness and concern, insight and understanding, if their thinking is still not entirely Catholic…precisely because they are conditioned and finding the transition to Catholic understanding very difficult.

Although it is difficult to break conditioning, it is not impossible and prayer and persistence are the answer on the part of the person endeavourint to make such a transition. What is difficult at first over time will become not at all difficult, until the person is conditioned into Catholic ways of thinking. But as the person is making the transition or striving to, as I said above, gentleness, concern, insight and understanding is asked. Their load at first is not an easy one. By all means one can point out to them that their thinking is not Catholic, but with the qualitites of concern etc. that I mentioned…with understanding and insight into the problem that they are dealing with.

Send regards…Peace…Barb

 

[Kitty_Chan]

The prosperity gospel leaves out something from Luke;

To whom much is given, much is demanded.

Take a look at Bill Gates, I think hes getting that message

 

[Kitty_Chan]

seabird3579:

well, you are correct, they are left to be their own interpreter, judge and jury, having no authoritative body to lean on.

Well, this is sorta correct, but one can talk to their pastor, spouse, family, friends, bible study group, pick up a book on a subject, surf the net. All while praying to God to show them what truth or decision is needed, its not as daunting as one would think.

 

[Contarini]

seabird3579:

Thank you for the clarification. Unfortunately most of the churches preaching on t.v. and that have sprung up in the last 50 years, seem to lean heavy on the “prosperity gospel.” What do you think has led to this aberration as you so aptly describe?

The nature of the culture. It used to be that a religious movement was considered more authentic the more it demanded of people. For a lot of people today, it’s the other way round–the more it makes people feel good, the more authentic it must be.

That being said, it’s a fairly well-established sociological principle that religious movements that are at least somewhat demanding are the ones that grow. The “megachurches” may have imbibed a toxic dose of the prosperity gospel, but the ones that really flourish do so by getting people in small groups where they are held accountable to live lives of Christian discipleship. The big “seeker services” are only the tip of the iceberg. I think that these churches condone way too much consumerism and materialism, but they do challenge people in ways that Catholic and mainline churches may not (they have more close-knit accountability than most Catholic churches, and they have much stricter moral standards than most mainline Protestant churches).

In other words, contemporary evangelicalism is not just about flashy TV preachers. There is a lot that is shallow and contemptible, but there are also a lot of things that they are doing right. And I think (perhaps too optimistically) that there’s a movement away from the “prosperity gospel” among a lot of younger people. Many young people (both in liberal and evangelical churches) are renouncing lives of privilege and comfort and embracing what some are calling “the new monasticism.” Perhaps this is a small group, but I hope it will be influential (and I need to live a simpler, more ascetic life myself before I have any right to talk!).

Edwin

 

[Paris_Blues]

I’ll admit it took me awhile to think “Catholic” because I still had my Protestant “traits” but now that I KNOW it’s the Church- the CC - to be in, my Protestant “traits” have gone into the “trash” and “Catholic thinking” is starting to grow in its place.

 

[Della]

Kitty Chan:

Well, this is sorta correct, but one can talk to their pastor, spouse, family, friends, bible study group, pick up a book on a subject, surf the net. All while praying to God to show them what truth or decision is needed, its not as daunting as one would think.

When it comes to one’s devotional life this is all right, but it is not a sound way to determine doctrine and dogma. For that we need a Magisterium with the promise of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. Fortunately for us, Jesus established this Magisterium, which was the Apostles, and after them, their successors, to whom this charism was passed on by the laying on of hands. One’s personal interpretation of Scripture has no bearing whatsoever on this process founded by Christ himself.

As to the OP’s topic of converts still retaining a Protestant mind set, it is very true of many. What I see most prevalent is the “either or” mentality that does not account for the paradoxes of the Christian faith, of its mystery. They seem to think everything can be explained with mere human reasoning. And while there certainly is room for reason, reason alone does not answer all we believe.

Also, many still have an “us and them” notion of who is and who isn’t a Christian. They transfer their puritanical Protestant definition onto their Catholic faith and start telling everyone they must be card carrying Catholics in order to be saved. Or they judge the actions of others in an attempt to gage how spiritual those around them are, which is not a Catholic way of seeing others. And the list goes on. Of course, the answer is to be deep in prayer and to embrace the virtue of humility in learning how to live as a child of the Church with a truly Catholic outlook on the world.

 

[seabird3579]

Kitty Chan:

Well, this is sorta correct, but one can talk to their pastor, spouse, family, friends, bible study group, pick up a book on a subject, surf the net. All while praying to God to show them what truth or decision is needed, its not as daunting as one would think.

And, my point was (and I want to say this a gently as possible) God has Already Provided the fullness of Truth within the Catholic Magisterium. That teaching body is His gift to the world. Protestants having to “reinvent the wheel” on every scriptural passage – is an unnecessary burden, to say nothing of the multitude of inaccuracies that follow.

 

[seabird3579]

Della:

Also, many still have an “us and them” notion of who is and who isn’t a Christian. They transfer their puritanical Protestant definition onto their Catholic faith and start telling everyone they must be card carrying Catholics in order to be saved. Or they judge the actions of others in an attempt to gage how spiritual those around them are, which is not a Catholic way of seeing others. And the list goes on. Of course, the answer is to be deep in prayer and to embrace the virtue of humility in learning how to live as a child of the Church with a truly Catholic outlook on the world.

Della, I would have to agree and add this: I believe the reason they are so insistant or “puritanical” as you’ve stated is because they see much more often (than Catholics) a constant abuse of scripture by almost anyone coming down the pike with ‘another’ view than theirs. This would make one defensive and defiant.

What I meant earlier by my “lions, tigers, and bears” statement is that – they can let their fears subside when they become Catholic. Our biggest divisions right now involve what has become to be known as “cafeteria Catholics.” Even though they ‘pick and choose’ their catholic beliefs, supposedly we’re all at the same ‘Restaurant’

Our patience and understanding should be exhibited to those who don’t even know they are holding onto protestant approaches to the gospel and acting defensively. Hopefully, different boards will bring to light some of these past mindsets and allow the new converts to understand the conflicts within themselves more clearly.

Peace,
Brenda

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Della:

When it comes to one’s devotional life this is all right, but it is not a sound way to determine doctrine and dogma. For that we need a Magisterium with the promise of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. Fortunately for us, Jesus established this Magisterium, which was the Apostles, and after them, their successors, to whom this charism was passed on by the laying on of hands. One’s personal interpretation of Scripture has no bearing whatsoever on this process founded by Christ himself.

Well maybe Im missing something but the disiples had personal interpretations of scripture and discussed it together. Or are you saying that all discussion is over and has been decided? Or is it that only those who the laying of hands was handed down (forgive the pun) that determine things?

As to the OP’s topic of converts still retaining a Protestant mind set, it is very true of many. What I see most prevalent is the “either or” mentality that does not account for the paradoxes of the Christian faith, of its mystery. They seem to think everything can be explained with mere human reasoning. And while there certainly is room for reason, reason alone does not answer all we believe.

I see this referenced about mystries, I think it upsets perhaps fundys who want it all in black and white. Am I correct they dont allow mysteries? (You would probably count me as a protastant but I personally hate labels).

I understand that not everything can be explained in the bible and when the unexplained happens then some will shoe horn in a answer or dismiss it and say its allorgory (think thats the right word) To some christians this caves in their beliefs, used to bother me the tiny unanswered questions. And why doesnt the bible discuss this point or that, Time had a thing about Joseph being marginalized.

The bible says that Jesus did many more things that would take so much to write down. If Im going to believe that Christ died for me and trust Him for that, maybe I can be patient and wait on the answers to those nagging questions of mystery. While mysteries are interesting there is so much thats said plainly that one can just say oh a mystery fine God will reveal it in His time or later on I have eternity to ask Joseph if he felt marginalized. Sides if we found out everything now what would we look forward to?? Thats my take on the mystery dont know if its catholic but hopefully at least it makes sense.

As for us and them your are right it needs to stop, when we are in Heaven it doesnt exist, we wont be able to pack that baggage there. To me the church in the end will be all who believe in Christ I think that stomps a bit on toes of churches, but I cant see Christ deciding a person by their membership, some people never get the privilage of getting that far.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

seabird3579:

And, my point was (and I want to say this a gently as possible) God has Already Provided the fullness of Truth within the Catholic Magisterium. That teaching body is His gift to the world. Protestants having to “reinvent the wheel” on every scriptural passage – is an unnecessary burden, to say nothing of the multitude of inaccuracies that follow.

This is crossovering a bit with my answer to Della but I want to ask can you give a example of reinvent the wheel?

I could see that is it reinventing or perhaps new info is available, but without a example I cant be sure of what you mean. I can see reinventing as unessary, Im thinking of adding drival like the Da Vinci thing. Thats something both sides should be debunking.

 

[Jaypeeto3]

Having been raised resolutely anti-Catholic, and received into the Catholic Church at age 39, I sometimes find myself struggling against the “old” mind. Sometimes I’ll start to doubt a Marian doctrine, for example, and quickly catch myself and ask God to give me stronger faith. It pops up from time to time !!
Love,
Jaypeeto3