Catholic Converts to Protestantism

[HopkinsReb]

No, as both civil and religious definitions of marriage deny plural marriage. And again, this would be extremely rare.

Not really; divorced people get “remarried” all the time. Do you consider their second marriages valid? If it’s spouse A’s first marriage and spouse B’s second, do you have to presume the marriage valid for person A – because if they’re married, they’re married! – but invalid for spouse B? Does that mean that person B has to leave person A, but person A can never marry again?

Define coerced. And considering that marriages in the ancient world were typically arranged by the father, you would have to find an exceptional case of “coercion”.

Let’s say they’re part of some Mormon cult and she’s forced against her will to be some wacko’s first wife. If she escapes, does she have to live the rest of her life single? After all, if she’s married, she’s married.

Define “false pretenses”. If you mean I married a person who presented themselves as the opposite sex, when that wasn’t true, I would be on board with you. Claiming religious differences (as many on this site do to petition for annulment), or not wanting to have kids, etc., isn’t a legitimate reason for divorce.

Not those differences per se, but lies about those differences. Say, an atheist fellow lies about being Christian to convince a Christian woman to marry him, then reveals after the marriage that he is atheist but now she’s stuck with him.

 

[minux]

My question in a nutshell is, can Catholics who become Protestants still be saved?

Yes. Per the Catechism:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

In summation, per the Catechism, there would be no salvation for someone to know Our Savior (and his Church) is true and deny him. No rationale person would know the Truth of the Church and convert to Protestantism. Salvation is not rejected to those, because of no fault of their own, be it ignorance, mental problems, etc.

Let’s go with an extreme example: if someone had an incomprehensible Church experience (i.e., molested by clergy) and converted to Protestantism, that person would find salvation in their final days.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

An annulment process investigates if the marriage was a valid sacramental marriage in the Catholic church not whether or not it was legal in the eyes of the state, though that could be part of the investigation.

 

[GKMotley]

This is basically my understanding.

 

[Gab123]

It is possible , but it is also very possible that they might be lost; after all, rejecting the Catholic faith once having it would probably constitutive a sin against the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, if saved, it would probably mean starting with zero in Purgatory. Sanctifying grace is available to the soul through the sacraments, of which the Church has all of them.

 

[lilypadrees]

Yes because as said in the book of Romans-

For whoever will call on The Name of the Lord will be saved

Romans 10:13

That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved

For with the heart a person believes resulting in righteousness and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation

Romans 10:9-10

Catholics and Protestants can be saved.

Matthew 7:21 (NRSVCE)
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

 

[MagdalenaRita]

For whoever will call on The Name of the Lord will be saved

Romans 10:13

That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved

For with the heart a person believes resulting in righteousness and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation

Romans 10:9-10

We need to hear the words from the whole Bible. The book of James says:

Thou believes that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. But will thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Galatians - faith that works by charity.

Those are just two verses. There are more.

How can you be saved through baptism? For that is salvation by works

We are not saved by works alone. We are not saved by faith alone but faith and works. Baptism does have sanctifying (make holy) grace.

1 Peter - Where unto baptism being of the like form, now saves you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

We receive salvation by faith and works through the grace of God.

If Jesus said he had to do the works of the Father, then shouldn’t we also.

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day. John 9:4.

 

[rightness]

If I may add my voice here, I will say a few words.

I was baptized in a Baptust church at age 10, confirmed into the Roman Catholic Church at 17, and then confirmed Lutheran, with my then-fiancee at age 22.

I left the RCC over doctrinal reasons. I do not think I understood what I was getting myself into then. The Real Presence was the reason I chose the Lutherans over every other group; I refused to be a part of a communion that did not believe or have the Real Presence in their Sacrament.

Currently, I am a seminarian at a Lutheran institution, and could never go back to the RCC, again, purely for doctrinal disagreements. I cannot honestly submit to a church that does not at least tolerate what I, as a theologian and Christian, view to be true.

Will I be saved? All I can say is this: Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

The answer to everyone who asks that question is “only God knows”. We can advise that being unified with the Body of Christ, the Church which Jesus founded will give you more graces when you are judged, but then we’ll just end up debating about what is the “Church”. I don’t think you should feel guilty for going to Lutheran because a lot of Catholics don’t even know the answers to your objections why you left the Church. If you have an open mind to any possible truths that could get you closer to God, then I think you’re in a good position, and seeing as you are asking here, that suggests that something led you here to find answers, or, at least, responses to your criticisms.

Replying to your other post, I just have a few things for you. First, the Authority of the Pope and Marian Doctrines are extremely scriptural. Mary is a bit more mysterious, but once some things are revealed to you, it will make sense, at least at some level for a non-Catholic. As for the Pope, the New Testament is literally knocking our face over with evidence of such authority given to Peter and his successors. If you want really indepth studies on that, FORMED.org has really good stuff (Lectio: Peter). PM me if you want access.

As for contraception, which is something that is going to be really hard to convince anyone in this current society, I recommend Kimberly Hanh’s book, Life-Giving Love: Embracing God’s Beautiful Design for Marriage. Why I recommend this book? If you know Scott Hanh’s conversion story, then you will know that Scott and Kimberly Hahn were anti-Catholic, but at one point in Kimberly Hanh’s university life, she came to the topic of Birth Control, and she made a presentation using Catholic arguments that convinced herself, her husband, and everyone who heard it to stop using contraceptives, and this is during the sexual revolution of the 60s to 80s. Her book is a result of that presentation.

 

[steve-b]

I acknowledge that there has been debate on the issue by many faithful theologians, and so disagree specifically with the binding of the concience on such a matter.

Debate is over. It is doctrine. The Church has that power from Jesus to teach doctrine authoritatively.

MiserereMei:

A Sacrament has three components simultaneously: 1. The specific command of Christ, 2. A material form, 3. A verbal form. I agree that the other rites your church recognizes as sacraments can be mediums of God’s grace, as can preaching or reading the Bible, or praying, all of which is also supported by the Scriptures.

In short,

Jesus established the Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church. I’ll go with that

MiserereMei:

I am not asking anything. I am stating that it is my position that a Christian can live, take part in, and support any governmental or economic system. I believe your church forbids Christians from being socialists. The merits of a system are different from whether or not a Christian qua Christian can support or participate in civil movements.

Consider this explanation From NCRegister

MiserereMei:

Matrimony is a sacrament:

I will read the texts when I have the time, but as a clarification: from the definition of Sacrament I gave above, marriage does not make the cut.

With all due respect, by what authority do you speak from?

MiserereMei:

Number 12 of my original post,

Some issues relating to [theological] anthropology. You left off, I assume due to space. I do not have the time or patience (with my phone’s keyboard) to defend it fully on my cell phone during lunch, however. I do not believe maleness and femaleness to be substantial qualities of humanity. Rather, maleness and femaleness are accidents, like blond hair or pale skin. In fact, these qualities cannot be substantial, as otherwise Christ could not “be like us in all things but sin”, nor could St Gregory’s maxim of “what he did not assume was not healed” be regarded as true, for Jesus, being male, did not thereby assume femaleness, just as he did not assume blondness, being a Palestinian Jew in the first century.

Goooooood grief !

MiserereMei:

So, if he did not assume a substantial quality, he cannot be said to be like one who has such a quality, and thus that one cannot be saved. However, who can deny that at least one among humans with the quality of femaleness has reached heaven, and is saved by Christ’s healing? Therefore, we must either reject the maxim or reject the category.

Break is over. Again, I will read your response and its links, and respond accordingly when I next have time. Thank you.

1. May I suggest don’t rush your answer
2. Also May I suggest reading THIS

 

[RealisticCatholic]

God can save anyone.

As the Catechism says, going to hell requires deliberate Mortal Sin — and persistence in it to the end. Are Catholics who leave the Church for Protestantism REALLY fully and knowingly rejecting God? Surely not. Especially these last few decades of poor catechesis, many are leaving the Church without even knowing what the Catholic Church is, in the first place.

It’s not that hard to find committed Protestants who say they didn’t find Jesus until after they left the Catholic Church.

The reason why Protestant ecclesial communities and traditions can lead one to salvation is precisely because they are reflecting elements of Truth and Goodness from the Catholic Church. There is only one church, and Baptism makes us members of Christ’s body. So even Protestants baptized as Protestants are still members of the Church, though not fully.

At the end of the day, we are saved if we are united to God in Charity. God can transform the soul of any person, with or without Baptism, and whether or not they have access to the truths of Jesus Christ and his Church.

But proper teaching is needed if we are to correctly form our wills. For example, adultery is a mortal sin. Imagine if a Protestant church taught adultery was just fine, in some circumstances. Well, ignorance aside, a Christian could severely be led to the path against Love of God, against Charity, and against Salvation and end up in hell.

Take a look at the Methodist thread in the Non-Catholic forum, and see how a Protestant tradition is trying to discern its stance on LGBT issues. This is an important subject, for getting it “right” or “wrong” may mean getting human nature right or wrong, or getting compassion right or wrong, or getting marriage and sexuality right or wrong. Tough issues, and it’s critical the CHURCH gets it right.

That’s one reason Christ founded a single Church with a visible structure, to be guided and provide guidance in every age.

God is all merciful, and He wants all in communion with Him in Heaven. But the reason for the Catholic Church is to make it easier for people to have access to Him.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

But the reason for the Catholic Church is to make it easier for people to have access to Him.

Easier? The Catholic Church is the means given to us by Jesus so that we may share in the fruits of His redemption and the grace of the sacraments. In other words, the Catholic church was instituted for our salvation and the only means for our salvation. In all charity it is not an easier way. Actually it is a lot more difficult but still the only way because that is the only place where the true Presence of Jesus is found.

 

[MiserereMei]

Debate is over. It is doctrine.

Aaaaaand that is exactly my issue. We are back to square one.

Jesus established the Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church. I’ll go with that

Thanks, but I’m done with religious propaganda. I was detailing the definition of sacrament from within my theological framework. We’ve been down this road before. Just because your communion calls itself “the Catholic Church” does not make it identical with the patristic and creedal catholic Church. If those rules were followed elsewhere, the Mormons would also have to be called the “One True Church” based on their official claimed title.

Consider this explanation From NCRegister

Why should I? I grew up in a conservative household. I’ve heard all the arguments before. Not convincing.

With all due respect

Translation: No respect given.

by what authority do you speak from?

MiserereMei:

Why, by the same authority from which you speak.

Goooooood grief !

MiserereMei:

Dismissiveness! Great conversation tool! Keep it up! With all seriousness, has dismissiveness ever caused anyone to change their mind, especially on an internet forum?

Also May I suggest reading THIS

You seem to not have understood what I have said. I was not saying there is no biological difference. I said there is no substantial or essential difference, using the words in a philosophical, rather than conventional, manner.

I have the feeling, increasing with each message you send, that you are trying to gain converts or score points rather than trying to have a conversation. That aim does not interest me, and sours what could be a good dialogue. So, I have changed my mind about responding. I am done with this conversation. I said in my second post that I am not willing to have a debate on this thread anyway.

 

[rightness]

God can save anyone.

Hehe I think it’s more accurate to say God can save everyone, but only if we let Him.
He is bound by His love for us by giving us this freedom.

Easier? The Catholic Church is the means given to us by Jesus so that we may share in the fruits of His redemption and the grace of the sacraments. In other words, the Catholic church was instituted for our salvation and the only means for our salvation. In all charity it is not an easier way. Actually it is a lot more difficult but still the only way because that is the only place where the true Presence of Jesus is found.

Well, I think your understanding of easy is really that of convenience rather than spiritual access to supernatural graces. Life isn’t supposed to be easy. It’s full of suffering, and the Catholic Church teaches to embrace suffering. By being exclusive, the Church wants to ensure that each faithful knows everything they need to follow Christ. Being a Catholic is hard, and through this cross we bear, we get closer to God.

Did you know in the early church, adults were required 3 years initiation before they could be baptised? This is mainly due to the persecutions, but the Catholic Church back then was super serious and exclusive, yet it was still exploding in numbers.

 

[adf417]

Did you know in the early church, adults were required 3 years initiation before they could be baptised?

I have heard this before but do you have a reference for it?

Peace!!!

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Debate is over. It is doctrine.

Aaaaaand that is exactly my issue. We are back to square one.

Jesus established the Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church. I’ll go with that

Thanks, but I’m done with religious propaganda. I was detailing the definition of sacrament from within my theological framework. We’ve been down this road before. Just because your communion calls itself “the Catholic Church” does not make it identical with the patristic and creedal catholic Church. If those rules were followed elsewhere, the Mormons would also have to be called the “One True Church” based on their official claimed title.

Consider this explanation From NCRegister

Why should I? I grew up in a conservative household. I’ve heard all the arguments before. Not convincing.

With all due respect

Translation: No respect given.

by what authority do you speak from?

MiserereMei:

Why, by the same authority from which you speak.

Goooooood grief !

MiserereMei:

Dismissiveness! Great conversation tool! Keep it up! With all seriousness, has dismissiveness ever caused anyone to change their mind, especially on an internet forum?

Also May I suggest reading THIS

You seem to not have understood what I have said. I was not saying there is no biological difference. I said there is no substantial or essential difference, using the words in a philosophical, rather than conventional, manner.

I have the feeling, increasing with each message you send, that you are trying to gain converts or score points rather than trying to have a conversation. That aim does not interest me, and sours what could be a good dialogue. So, I have changed my mind about responding. I am done with this conversation. I said in my second post that I am not willing to have a debate on this thread anyway.

Conversations should NOT be void of truth either in question or response to a question, just to avoid a response correcting error where it shows up. . By raising your disagreements with the Catholic Church on a Catholic website, you also by your action invite responses to that action. Conversations that are only one way aren’t conversations… that’s a monologue, a speech. That’s NOT the format of CA.

Have a nice day
If you’re not interested in a response to your objections, then simple answer, don’t post in the first place.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

In all charity it is not an easier way. Actually it is a lot more difficult

Well, I think your understanding of easy is really that of convenience rather than spiritual access to supernatural graces. Life isn’t supposed to be easy.

I am wondering. Did you mean to respond here to my post. I think we are pretty much saying the same thing. Life isn’t easy. Being Catholic isn’t easy. It is the narrow path.

 

[Justin_Mary]

The Catholic Church is the means given to us by Jesus so that we may share in the fruits of His redemption and the grace of the sacraments. In other words, the Catholic church was instituted for our salvation and the only means for our salvation.

Not to be argumentative, but for the sake of discussion, I agree with what you have said but sometimes wonder the true & full meaning of those words.

For one, I believe those who embrace their Catholic faith & live a life allegiant to Jesus Christ are those who faithfully answer the call to such a life.

But are we all called?

I ask this question often especially as I realize our prayers of the Mass, the Divine Office, & the Little Office of The Blessed Virgin Mary are full of prayers for the whole world & not just the Catholic faithful.

So when I here there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church I believe an additional meaning is that we are the salt of the earth. We intercede on behalf of the whole human family. Like Abraham interceded for the people of Sodom, Moses for the children of Israel, we as the Body of Christ intercede for the world.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

We intercede on behalf of the whole human family. Like Abraham interceded for the people of Sodom, Moses for the children of Israel, we as the Body of Christ intercede for the world.

I definitely agree we intercede for others outside the Church, though, are we not to intercede and pray that they come into the Church and partake of His grace in the sacraments?

 

[mcq72]

because that is the only place where the true Presence of Jesus is found.

We are His tabernacle now. We are His “monstrance” ( believe an early father wrote as such).

 

[MagdalenaRita]

We are His tabernacle now. We are His “monstrance”

We are temples of the Holy Spirit. Yes. And it is true that Jesus is present with us, always, but he is present in a very special and unique way in the tabernacles of the Catholic church and no where else.