Catholic Courtship Problems

  • Thread starter Thread starter wowitsjerome
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
W

wowitsjerome

Guest
Hello,

First. Thank you for taking the time to read this post. I don’t want to make it a long winded thesis on defending or excusing myself so let me get straight to the point.

I began, with the help and proper discernment with my spiritual director, the process of honorable courtship with my girlfriend (which honestly, the title seems awkward to relate to courtship). We’ve tried our best in all departments especially piety and chastity. We attend mass regularly and adore at least once a week together. Both of us happen to be adult leaders in a local youth group and have been extremely careful to not show too much PDA if any at all around our youth. I’m sure they’ve seen me give her a glance from across the room, but definitely have reserved any PDA for time around our peers. (I should note that even this is limited)

BUT! Once in a while we do tend to speak very cheesy to each other (calling each other love, babe, sweetheart) around the kids (highschool and middle school). We also have been very vocal in our affirmation of each other as individuals in front of others. This has caused some concern among our leaders because supposedly it makes people feel awkward around us. I assure you that we are MUCH MORE CHEESY over the phone or when no one else is listening. I don’t mind this so much because both her and I are very verbally expressive of our gratitude to God for each other. I love her and frankly plan on marrying her soon. I don’t see a reason to change this, especially considering we’ve toned down any verbal form of affection A LOT when in the presence of our youth.

I feel very strongly about this because 1. This, God Willing, is my vocation. 2. I see the opportunity to provide to our youth an example that Honorable Courtship is very possible 3. Because I don’t want to be a point of scandal for any of the youth.

I’m in a bit of a rut because I don’t see any moral wrong to really change my ways… or to adjust for the sake of the opinions of others. Any (name removed by moderator)ut will be greatly appreciated. Should the cheese stop? should I serve crackers and wine? 🙂
 
Role modelling is good, but the cheesy stuff might make members of the group feel uneasy (excuse the rhyme) or excluded. People feel good about other people’s sweethearts when they are somehow included. My friend brought her new fiance to my home for a visit and he took my sister, brother-in-law, and me out for a hearty Italian dinner. We were so delighted with that and did not care what they called each other. We just loved him for including us in their happiness. Maybe you need to think wine and crackers…Or a cake. Or fix everyone a big lasagna and spaghetti feast. “We love each other so much that we wanted to share something good with you.” The most jaded or love-wounded person might not turn down a yummy slice.
 
wowitsjerome said:
Hello,

First. Thank you for taking the time to read this post. I don’t want to make it a long winded thesis on defending or excusing myself so let me get straight to the point.

I began, with the help and proper discernment with my spiritual director, the process of honorable courtship with my girlfriend (which honestly, the title seems awkward to relate to courtship). We’ve tried our best in all departments especially piety and chastity. We attend mass regularly and adore at least once a week together. Both of us happen to be adult leaders in a local youth group and have been extremely careful to not show too much PDA if any at all around our youth. I’m sure they’ve seen me give her a glance from across the room, but definitely have reserved any PDA for time around our peers. (I should note that even this is limited)

BUT! Once in a while we do tend to speak very cheesy to each other (calling each other love, babe, sweetheart) around the kids (highschool and middle school). We also have been very vocal in our affirmation of each other as individuals in front of others. This has caused some concern among our leaders because supposedly it makes people feel awkward around us. I assure you that we are MUCH MORE CHEESY over the phone or when no one else is listening. I don’t mind this so much because both her and I are very verbally expressive of our gratitude to God for each other. I love her and frankly plan on marrying her soon. I don’t see a reason to change this, especially considering we’ve toned down any verbal form of affection A LOT when in the presence of our youth.

I feel very strongly about this because 1. This, God Willing, is my vocation. 2. I see the opportunity to provide to our youth an example that Honorable Courtship is very possible 3. Because I don’t want to be a point of scandal for any of the youth.

I’m in a bit of a rut because I don’t see any moral wrong to really change my ways… or to adjust for the sake of the opinions of others. Any (name removed by moderator)ut will be greatly appreciated. Should the cheese stop? should I serve crackers and wine? 🙂
Click to expand...
Based on what you’ve said above, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the way in which you and your intended are behaving. Certainly these “leaders” have better things to keep track of while instructing teens than whether or not the two of you use innocent terms of endearment with one another.
 
If what your saying is something you wouldn’t mind hearing your parents say to each other in public, then I don’t think you need to worry. 😃

However, you could still just keep the “affirmations” to a time when you two are not with the group.
 
You sound like a wonderful young man who is modeling for the youth group a proper Catholic courtship. Actually, both of you are probably doing more for these kids than anyone can realize. But, most of the time when people are at work, and I would call time with the youth group work, they adopt a professional demeanor. Perhaps you might consider if you were back in middle school and two teachers in a relationship were using “cheesy” names with each other around you, would it have been appropriate? If something has been brought to your attention try to consider it carefully as it means that you have caused someone or several someone’s to be uncomfortable around you, you really sound like a couple who would never want to do that to anyone.
 
I’m going to disagree with everyone else here. If your LEADERS are saying they are concerned (key word here) in youth ministry, you need to follow their directions. When you are dealing with teenagers, its a whole different ball game.

Sometimes people aren’t quite adept to understanding what they seem like to others.

This isn’t mere “opinion” of others. Your leaders have a responsibility to keep the leadership team for youth a safe and comfortable environment, and if they are perceiving awkwardness with others, they have a responsibility to bring this up and ask for you to change your behavior.

Honestly, if I had a couple on my core team (when I was a youth minister) who behaved like this and I asked them to stop because I saw others uncomfortable, and they said, “that’s your opinion, we’re not going to change”. I would ask them to leave the core team. How can I trust them to follow my directions in other things, perhaps something more serious?
 
agapewolf said:
I’m going to disagree with everyone else here. If your LEADERS are saying they are concerned (key word here) in youth ministry, you need to follow their directions. When you are dealing with teenagers, its a whole different ball game.

Sometimes people aren’t quite adept to understanding what they seem like to others.

This isn’t mere “opinion” of others. Your leaders have a responsibility to keep the leadership team for youth a safe and comfortable environment, and if they are perceiving awkwardness with others, they have a responsibility to bring this up and ask for you to change your behavior.

Honestly, if I had a couple on my core team (when I was a youth minister) who behaved like this and I asked them to stop because I saw others uncomfortable, and they said, “that’s your opinion, we’re not going to change”. I would ask them to leave the core team. How can I trust them to follow my directions in other things, perhaps something more serious?
Click to expand...
I actually agree with you, agapewolf. I only tried to say it with a bit of veiled humor.

Yes, I agree, it is obviously making someone uncomfortable, and they need to save it for another time.
 
I don’t see anything wrong. I acted very goofy around my (now) wife while we were courting, and even before then. Though, after we became a couple, we gained the nicknames Awkward (me) and With Awkward (her) by one of our close friends, but it was done because he enjoyed watching our interaction. There’s nothing wrong with being cheesy or goofy. It shows how comfortable you are around each other. My wife and I still goof around with each other, even if sometimes I feel like a child doing it, I enjoy it because it is “our thing” and brings us closer together, not to mention that it brings a whole lot of entertainment to us both.

Though, there is a time and a place for everything. And if it makes others too uncomfortable, you may want to try and tone it down a bit. If their issue is just with the names you call each other, then just do your best to use your given names around those that it makes uncomfortable.

That’s my only advice, but you are by no means required to follow it.
 
wowitsjerome said:
Once in a while we do tend to speak very cheesy to each other (calling each other love, babe, sweetheart) around the kids (highschool and middle school). We also have been very vocal in our affirmation of each other as individuals in front of others. This has caused some concern among our leaders because supposedly it makes people feel awkward around us. I assure you that we are MUCH MORE CHEESY over the phone or when no one else is listening. I don’t mind this so much because both her and I are very verbally expressive of our gratitude to God for each other.
Click to expand...
PDA comes in both the physical and verbal form. Making out isn’t the only way to do it - there is also the display of your intimate emotions that can be tmi. There is an intimacy in calling someone “love” or “sweetheart.” Moreso than “Honey” and “Babe.” I have never been around a couple, dating or married (I am married, and around plenty of married folks), who use those terms in front of other people regularly. I have witnessed a husband and wife part ways, with a kiss, and an “I love you.” When this happens, I am not uncomfortable with it, and I think it’s lovely for a husband and wife to make a little connection before they part ways, even though my dh and I are not expressive in that way. But it is most certainly an intimate moment, just between the two of them. And I am ok with it because it is a short moment, and I’m ok with being excluded for a short moment. Now if a couple were in regular conversation with me and my dh, or in a group of people, and they began to use intimate terms with each other like “my love” or give each other “vocal affirmations” (I’m not really sure what you mean by this, but I’m guessing it’s like a compliment, only more personal), I would become uncomfortable, because those sorts of interactions are necessarily intimate, and exclusive of others. It would be similar to a married couple embracing, gazing into each other’s eyes, and kissing tenderly - nothing wrong with it, but not appropriate group behavior. Without being there to actually witness what you are describing, I imagine that I might also be uncomfortable with the level of verbal/emotional PDA, and if I were you, I would take the advice of the leaders, and tone it down.
 
I should say too, that I appreciate your wanting to be a good example. But it’s not necessary to bring them that close to your relationship to do so. When I was in college, I was in a group of Catholic students, whose leaders were a couple that ended up getting married after my Freshman year. Both before, and after the wedding, the couple reserved their emotional intimacy for themselves. Even though they were almost always together, and they called each other “Hon,” I didn’t witness intimate moments of theirs. They were still a beautiful example of love and marriage, because of how well they worked together. They were a beautiful team, and it was clear that they loved God and each other. But whether or not they ever spoke to each other in a “cheesy way,” I wouldn’t know, because they didn’t do it in front of the group. Perhaps you are expecting too much of what it takes to be a good example. Even if you tone down your displays of affection, you will still be able to be a good witness of a godly relationship.
 
agapewolf said:
I’m going to disagree with everyone else here. If your LEADERS are saying they are concerned (key word here) in youth ministry, you need to follow their directions. When you are dealing with teenagers, its a whole different ball game.

Sometimes people aren’t quite adept to understanding what they seem like to others.

This isn’t mere “opinion” of others. Your leaders have a responsibility to keep the leadership team for youth a safe and comfortable environment, and if they are perceiving awkwardness with others, they have a responsibility to bring this up and ask for you to change your behavior.

Honestly, if I had a couple on my core team (when I was a youth minister) who behaved like this and I asked them to stop because I saw others uncomfortable, and they said, “that’s your opinion, we’re not going to change”. I would ask them to leave the core team. How can I trust them to follow my directions in other things, perhaps something more serious?
Click to expand...
I second the above. OP, if your cheesy words are making other uncomfortable and you have been asked to stop, then you should do so. No matter how pure your intentions here is with the GF, if it can and is misunderstood then you should think otherwise and have your cheesy affection for more private times and texting. You don’t need to flaunt the relationship in front of others.
 
I would tend to agree with Agapewolf in that it’s the people higher up on the ladder than you who have more responsibility and therefore more say. As in, if they’re merely supervisors, then the responsibility remains mostly yours but if they are closer to a real full-fledged boss or manager, then it’s theirs. You may actually need to follow their directions even if you disagree. And even if they’re bad directions. Which is not to turn yourself into a masochist but to make sure the leadership works. One thing leaders must be able to pass down to people they lead is obeying those who lead the leaders. For example, when you have your own children, you will teach them, also by example, to follow the Pope and the lawful authorities of your country, right? It’s a bit similar here.

This said, I don’t really see anything bad in your behaviour, based on your tale. But your tale is just one side of the situation, which you seem to realise as you seek (name removed by moderator)ut from others, and like they say, nobody is a good judge of his own case (nor even a reliable witness).

ThyKingdomCome makes a good point in saying that:
  1. An example of what a good Christian relationship looks like is important. We can make toddlers believe in Santa but we shouldn’t make teenagers believe that marriages happen out of thin air or that whatever happens before is taboo, let alone that marriage is by definition a dirty secret and everybody has a sexual relationship or even sexual misadventure from which a relationship starts that eventually leads to marriage–this is like refusing to talk to children about sex ed and wondering while girls turn up pregnant one day. Affection is also important here. We need to break the curse of bad, abusive or disinterested marriages that result from emotional dysfunctions that possibly largely involve the “Victorian” (bourgeois mentality, more like) ban against emotionality, affection etc. Sure better if mum and dad scoff and sulk at each other (or are simply indifferent to each other) than dare hug, right? WRONG!
  2. On the other hand, TMI is TMI. I firmly believe that we have not enough affection going on publicly, rather than too much. But affection is, of course, not clothed foreplay on park benches. Affection are hugs, pecks on the cheek, pats on the arm, taking someone’s hand, but most of all kindness. And not only to one’s love interests. However, some people in the religious circles think there is something wrong with kindness and warmth. But just like some people don’t particularly enjoy hearing about someone’s bedroom troubles, bowel movements, kidney stones, sore bottoms and other private details, sometimes lovey dovey thingies are a little bit too personal. Again, I believe they shouldn’t be confined to privacy: this because if we tell people to get a room, they will 1) be ashamed of their love and 2) do get a room, and possibly have sex in it. Whereas love is not and should not be shameful. On the other hand, love does follow good habits (Corinthians), right? There is no absolute standard of TMI. It’s not about some academic question as to what is objectively too much (people who’d see it that way need to get out more, get some fresh air). The problem lies in an entirely different thing: not making other people uncomfortable if you can avoid it without some serious difficulty or needing to do something bad.
In connection with the above, if you were supposed to hide a good, honourable betrothal under the carpet as if it were a shameful concubinage (excuse the cudgelling language, I’m just being analytical here and not meaning to be a jerk that uses 19th century English to intimidate people into agreement or at least silence), then that would be a bad thing. Marriage is a vocation and marriage is honourable, no matter what some people think of it. Marriage doesn’t appear magically out of thin air, no matter that some people would prefer to, indeed, sweep the in-between under a rug. (Is there an option to involve a priest in the discussion as opposed to relying on secular amateurs?)

Also, this may come as a bit of a surprise to you in light of my own language in the last paragraph, but I am detecting some stiffness and a bit of artificiality in yours. It may reflect on the situation. You use big words, artificial restraint, formal syntax. (For example, “We are leaders in…” is not the standard way of describing parish initiatives in normal everyday conversations.) Aren’t you dealing with a bit of a suffocating situation? This does connect with the whole uneasiness about affection. It might be a case of Victorian fever.

EDIT: Remember young folks will emulate you. You want them to treat their girlfriends and fiancé(e)s right (and in a healthy way that does not include sulking and scoffing which is supposed to mean Christian love) when they have them, but you don’t want them to go and get and boyfriend or girlfriend because Mr. So-and-So has one. They are also less prepared than you are to handle such a situation. Most of all remember they will want to emulate you. This may be even more important than not forcing them to be spectators for your love story.

(While I’d say that the social dimension of marriage does actually include wanting to share the joy with other people or even the whole community and it’s not just about the wedding party, you still need to take into account the sensibilities of others, who generally don’t feel too great watching a distinctly private affair going on. You may also want to control your need to be in-your-face about it, as in manifestation, expression, First Amendment kind of vibe, which does involve an element of assertion. And we’re all generally tired of people who feel the need to assert themselves, aren’t we?)
 
I suppose the “golden medium” here would be not to manifest it, but not to hide it under the carpet either. This may require talking to the senior leaders and making sure you read them right. In other words, what exactly is their beef with your behaviour, above all is it about the entire thing or is it only about the excess of it.

As for “cheesy”, you can cut down on the babes, sweetiepies etc. and rely more on burgher-safe darlings and first name. First names are important, and classy. Much underappreciated between lovers, I’d say. 😛

Another thing that comes to my mind, actually: we don’t like seeing our authority figures lose control of themselves, especially their brains. This is not just walking in on mum and dad, it includes mum or dad losing himself or herself so hard in the yelling that he or she doesn’t even really realise what words he or she is saying. In short, you’ve got to keep control rather than appearing to the kids like you’re being driven by unknown forces outside of man’s control. Sobriety would be a big thing here, as well as defeating the urge to show off or act like you’re older than you really are (which may create resentment in people of all age ranges). Marriage does come with a certain social position, it enhances your standing and makes you more fully an adult man, and it does rub off on relationships like when you suddenly (or finally) “get a girl” and you feel like you’re so much more important or grown right now (I experienced that feeling myself when I was a good number of years older than you probably are right now, you know, it’s not reserved to late teens and twenagers). That’s all cool but just like with a promotion at work, school, scouting, army, whatever, you need to get down to business and do your duties somehow in spite of all that enthusiasm that’s making you want to explode. 😉
 
Jerome,

My view is this: you and your soon to be wife are doing nothing wrong. You are both chase and honorable, what is so wrong about that? Some have issues with the way you interact (calling each other sweetheart or such) then too bad for them. Flat out, who are they to judge how you and your soon to be wife address each other?

If anything you both should be shown to be the way that a courtship should be, with as you say with piety and chastity. Maybe those that have issues with you should look at their own lives: how they were acting with those they dating before marriage. Or those that are not dating anyone and could be jealous.

The thing is – no one has a right to judge you or your girlfriend – flat out. Their “holier-than-thou” attitude should just be ignored.

May God bless you and keep you in his blessings.

Winter

P.S. Grats on the pending wedding 🙂
 
If your leaders are expressing concern because your behavior is making others uncomfortable, then you really should be considerate of your group. You can still be an example to them without being unnecessarily affectionate in their presence. Taking a leadership role involves doing what is best for your group, even if it involves some sacrifice on your part. You’re the adults; these are kids- show them you care about them and their comfort by toning it down.
 
wowitsjerome said:
Hello,

First. Thank you for taking the time to read this post. I don’t want to make it a long winded thesis on defending or excusing myself so let me get straight to the point.

I began, with the help and proper discernment with my spiritual director, the process of honorable courtship with my girlfriend (which honestly, the title seems awkward to relate to courtship). We’ve tried our best in all departments especially piety and chastity. We attend mass regularly and adore at least once a week together. Both of us happen to be adult leaders in a local youth group and have been extremely careful to not show too much PDA if any at all around our youth. I’m sure they’ve seen me give her a glance from across the room, but definitely have reserved any PDA for time around our peers. (I should note that even this is limited)

BUT! Once in a while we do tend to speak very cheesy to each other (calling each other love, babe, sweetheart) around the kids (highschool and middle school). We also have been very vocal in our affirmation of each other as individuals in front of others. This has caused some concern among our leaders because supposedly it makes people feel awkward around us. I assure you that we are MUCH MORE CHEESY over the phone or when no one else is listening. I don’t mind this so much because both her and I are very verbally expressive of our gratitude to God for each other. I love her and frankly plan on marrying her soon. I don’t see a reason to change this, especially considering we’ve toned down any verbal form of affection A LOT when in the presence of our youth.

I feel very strongly about this because 1. This, God Willing, is my vocation. 2. I see the opportunity to provide to our youth an example that Honorable Courtship is very possible 3. Because I don’t want to be a point of scandal for any of the youth.

I’m in a bit of a rut because I don’t see any moral wrong to really change my ways… or to adjust for the sake of the opinions of others. Any (name removed by moderator)ut will be greatly appreciated. Should the cheese stop? should I serve crackers and wine? 🙂
Click to expand...
You need to talk to your supervisors. If you have a problem following their directions then you should step down from your positions. You are in a position of great responsibility and your attitude is one of “If they don’t like it, then tough.” If I were one of those supervisors I would remove you from the job immediately. You should be humble and recognize that your love talk with your girlfriend (not fiance’ Winter Warlock) is not appropriate in front of these younger people. It really doesn’t matter what you think about it, you are being asked NOT TO DO IT. Do you really think it is about the words you say, as much as it is about your attitude about being asked to stop?
 
TheRealJuliane said:
You need to talk to your supervisors. If you have a problem following their directions then you should step down from your positions. You are in a position of great responsibility and your attitude is one of “If they don’t like it, then tough.” If I were one of those supervisors I would remove you from the job immediately. You should be humble and recognize that your love talk with your girlfriend (not fiance’ Winter Warlock) is not appropriate in front of these younger people. It really doesn’t matter what you think about it, you are being asked NOT TO DO IT. Do you really think it is about the words you say, as much as it is about your attitude about being asked to stop?
Click to expand...
I agree.
 
Winter_Warlock said:
Jerome,

Some have issues with the way you interact (calling each other sweetheart or such) then too bad for them. Flat out, who are they to judge how you and your soon to be wife address each other?

The thing is – no one has a right to judge you or your girlfriend – flat out. Their “holier-than-thou” attitude should just be ignored.

🙂
Click to expand...
Who are they? They are the leaders of the youth ministry. They have a right to address the OP with their concerns. There was no mention of being “judged”, but of awkwardness, in YOUTH MINISTRY.

It’s not “holier than thou”. and when things like this get ignored, then you have a short way before there are law suits and allegations, and an entire parish’s youth ministry called into question because of core members speaking inappropriately around youth. That’s not necessarily what is going on, but that doesn’t matter. It is what is perceived, and especially today, youth ministry needs to be extra careful and above reproach in every aspect. There is no need for them to speak cheesy to each other in such a manner in front of the group. Ministry is NOT sacrificed over this issue.
 
I’m wondering what your relationships with girlfriend really is. I understand that you are courting, but you aren’t officially engaged, correct? So courting or not, you are two young adults who are not engaged (formally) who are calling each iother cheesy names in front of the high school/jr high youth group. Not classy.

I agree with the group leaders. Simply call each other by your first names when at youth group events. Certainly you can share whatever is appropriate about your courting. and let the kids know when you get engaged! But don’t share your “honeypoo” names with the teens.
 
I think that you both need to respect the leaders and listen to people who know better than you.

You don’t need to know why. It doesn’t matter if it’s cheesy, either you knock it off, or you stop going to youth group.

Most youth groups (especially middle school ones) encourage teens not to date at all, date each other or missionary date. It may seem that you are rubbing it in their noses that you are dating.

It could be that coming from broken homes, the kids are just not comfortable with your affections.

They could feel that you are mocking them and not “being real”

It could also be that you are just REALLY annoying.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top