Catholic Courtship Problems

[BlueEyedLady]

Yeah, you need to cut it out. When my now fiance and I were just dating we volunteered with an after school sports program for at-risk youth. The kids knew that we were friends, but they did not know that we were dating. We weren’t there for each other, we were there for them. Speaking to each other in that manner would have only been a distraction. The kids didn’t need to think that there was anyone there that we were more focused on than them.

If we had been engaged or married, and I mean actually, officially engaged with a ring and a wedding date we probably would have let the kids know, but we still would not have spoken intimately like that to each other or even held hands. I wasn’t there to model courtship, I was there to keep these kids off of the streets and out of gangs. Likewise, you are there to teach the Catholic faith, not show them that you know how to use terms of endearment with your girlfriend. Besides, how does calling her ‘sweetheart’ model courtship? That doesn’t give them any glimpse into your relationship beyond making them aware that you really like each other. There’s a time and a place for everything, and this youth program is not it.

And finally, and most importantly, your superiors have told you that it makes people uncomfortable and you need to stop. So do it. No questions asked. You aren’t there to sweet talk your girlfriend, and you certainly aren’t there to give people the willies.

 

[Winter_Warlock_1]

Again, what is the OP doing wrong? He and his girlfriend are not being overt in there “cheesy” names, they are not having any physical contact in front of anyone. Everyone keeps pointing out that the “leaders” have issues. Which brings up the question is it one or two “leaders” while the others have no problems? Have any of the youths (not sure of their age) made any comment about it being wrong? Have any of the parents of the youths made comments?

As for those that are uncomfortable it is the so called “leaders” playing at being adults – not the kids – maybe those adults need to grow up.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Again, what is the OP doing wrong? He and his girlfriend are not being overt in there “cheesy” names, they are not having any physical contact in front of anyone. Everyone keeps pointing out that the “leaders” have issues. Which brings up the question is it one or two “leaders” while the others have no problems? Have any of the youths (not sure of their age) made any comment about it being wrong? Have any of the parents of the youths made comments?

As for those that are uncomfortable it is the so called “leaders” playing at being adults – not the kids – maybe those adults need to grow up.

Doesn’t really matter, Winter. Either one plays by the rules, according to the authorities, or one doesn’t. Whether or not this poster thinks he is doing nothing wrong (and you obviously agree), his supervisors have asked him to stop doing it. When he gets a full-time job, how is it going to go over when his boss asks him not to do something and he basically starts arguing with the boss? If he doesn’t agree with the rules he’s been asked to follow, he’s got one choice, and that is to step down from the position he’s in. That’s it, period, end of story.

The OP and his GF are calling each other sweet names in front of others, and why? Because they want to. So, the supervisors have asked them to stop, and the attitude is “No, you’re in the wrong.” That’s called insubordination. Fired.

 

[Winter_Warlock_1]

Juliane,

Your opinion and I do respect it, but I do disagree with it – in this situation at least . As you state rules are to be followed and I do agree, was it explained to him that the rules there were to refer to any other person by name only, not just to his girlfriend but to anyone, as in calling a man by his name and not say “Hi Dude, or Buddy”? A bit extreme but in my view the same thing, would smiling at another woman in a friendly hello be inappropriate?

If these “rules” were explained and known to all volunteers then fine, but if they are making rules and Appling them to people as they go then they are the ones with issues not the OP.

I look forward to your response – but maybe we should take it to a new post and not hijack this one.

May God bless and keep you.

Winter

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Again, what is the OP doing wrong? Not listening to his superiors for one. He and his girlfriend are not being overt in there “cheesy” names, they are not having any physical contact in front of anyone. I listed several reasons why I would not display my romantic relationship when working with kids. Other people have also stated problems that it may cause in the group. Everyone keeps pointing out that the “leaders” have issues. Which brings up the question is it one or two “leaders” while the others have no problems? Doesn’t matter, if the decision came down then they need to abide by it. While the leaders may disagree they are obligated to ask the OP and his girlfriend to stop this behavior as a united front.Have any of the youths (not sure of their age) made any comment about it being wrong? Even if one or more of the kids had gone to the leaders about this it is none of the OP’s concern. Kids who complained about this have the right to remain anonymous. Have any of the parents of the youths made comments? Same answer I gave about the kids complaining.

As for those that are uncomfortable it is the so called “leaders” playing at being adults – not the kids – maybe those adults need to grow up.

Why is it such a big deal for him to refrain from doing this in front of kids?

 

[agapewolf]

Juliane,

Your opinion and I do respect it, but I do disagree with it – in this situation at least . As you state rules are to be followed and I do agree, was it explained to him that the rules there were to refer to any other person by name only, not just to his girlfriend but to anyone, as in calling a man by his name and not say “Hi Dude, or Buddy”? A bit extreme but in my view the same thing, would smiling at another woman in a friendly hello be inappropriate?

If these “rules” were explained and known to all volunteers then fine, but if they are making rules and Appling them to people as they go then they are the ones with issues not the OP.

I look forward to your response – but maybe we should take it to a new post and not hijack this one.

May God bless and keep you.

Winter

This doesn’t matter. When situations arise, they are addressed. Youth ministry is a highly sensitive area that MUST be above reproach at all times. The leadership of this youth ministry has observed (and probably been told by others) that there is awkwardness. They are within their rights to request the behavior be stopped.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Juliane,

Your opinion and I do respect it, but I do disagree with it – in this situation at least . As you state rules are to be followed and I do agree, was it explained to him that the rules there were to refer to any other person by name only, not just to his girlfriend but to anyone, as in calling a man by his name and not say “Hi Dude, or Buddy”? A bit extreme but in my view the same thing, would smiling at another woman in a friendly hello be inappropriate?

If these “rules” were explained and known to all volunteers then fine, but if they are making rules and Appling them to people as they go then they are the ones with issues not the OP.

I look forward to your response – but maybe we should take it to a new post and not hijack this one.

May God bless and keep you.

Winter

No, Winter, I think our discussion is relevant for the OP. There’s no need to make it a new thread.

Maybe the leaders did not foresee such a situation, and thus, there might not have been a rule against it going in. Sometimes, the rules have to be made up on the spot, to cover these kinds of spontaneous, and fluid situations. If the OP were to have told his supervisor, “OK, no problem, we’ll stop doing that,” then no written rule would be necessary. The problem would be over.

But no. He really doesn’t want to stop calling his girlfriend, “Babe,” or “Honey,” or “Sweetie,” EVEN THOUGH he’s being told that it is making others (the kids, probably) uncomfortable. So, there is an element of belligerence to his stance - “It’s not MY problem, it’s YOUR problem.” That sort of attitude is not conducive to ministry. Do you understand that the sweetie names are not really the problem? It’s the attitude behind being asked to stop doing something on the job (yes, I know it’s a volunteer position but still), and refusing to stop. You can appeal the rules, through proper channels; you can quit the job based on principles; but you can’t really eat your cake and have it too - If you flip your middle finger in front of your superiors, you’ll get the boot.

As others have said, I would have to question this person’s sincere desire to help others, if he is rebelling like this on a very small request to stop using terms of endearment in front of the young people he’s supposed to be there for. What other issues are going to come up in the future, if this is the way he approaches being asked to stop doing something?

 

[PaulinVA]

The OP needs to remember that he is a volunteer in a church setting. For goodness sakes - act appropriately and do what you are told.

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[wowitsjerome]

WOW! First thank you for your time and responses. Definitely has given me all types of insight.

I want to be careful and not to seem as if I’m on the defensive or excuse myself from some of the advice. However I would still like further discussion on this and so I believe some additional clarification should be included.

First, when I mentioned leaders these are my peers in the group and actually I happen to have a little more authority over them. Not only are these my peers but also fellow Third Orders of a religious congregation. I happen to also be the local servant who is leads our local community.

Second, I don’t intend to keep what i’m doing because i “feel” that i’m right and I understand the sensitivity of youth ministry and again refuse to be a source of scandal or distraction from our ultimate end… Loving God.

Third, I should reiterate we speak to each other with pet names only once in a while if at all. Mostly its not out of habit but it simply slips. This is the main appeal of our relationship and something I wouldn’t change for the world.

My girlfriend and I have decided, after some time in prayer today, will probably mortify our speech and actions further. To offer the humiliation of correction for our proper discernment and allow it to humble us because Lord know’s I need it. I see this as another opportunity to offer up a bit more silence like St. Joseph.

BUT I would like to continue this discussion for the sake of proper behavior in courtship because this is something that I frequently pray about and share about with our youth. Is the situation I found myself in a source of scandal to those around us? Should a couple, for the sake of not making anyone feel uncomfortable, hold back a little bit more in shows of affection (even non physical) for the sake of others?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Should a couple, for the sake of not making anyone feel uncomfortable, hold back a little bit more in shows of affection (even non physical) for the sake of others?

Yes. Definitely. There is a time and a place for everything. When you’re with friends and/or family, you can “Babe” and “Sweetie” all you like. When you’re in another setting, then you modify your behavior according to the expectations.

Here’s an example. Around the house, my husband and I either call each other, “Dear,” or we just don’t use names at all. Oh, sometimes I use, “Hon,” but I do that to my friends too. Anyway, out in public, I can’t exactly call my husband, “Dear.” It’s so ODD to have to use his given name, I can’t even tell you how weird it is! And yet, calling him “Dear” would just be improper given that we are around others who are not family.

That’s something every couple goes through, I’m sure.

Thank you for coming back and correcting our wrong impressions based on your OP.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

wowitsjerome:

                              * Should a couple, for the sake of not  making anyone feel uncomfortable, hold back a little bit more in shows  of affection (even non physical) for the sake of others?*

Yes. Definitely. There is a time and a place for everything. When you’re with friends and/or family, you can “Babe” and “Sweetie” all you like. When you’re in another setting, then you modify your behavior according to the expectations.

Here’s an example. Around the house, my husband and I either call each other, “Dear,” or we just don’t use names at all. Oh, sometimes I use, “Hon,” but I do that to my friends too. Anyway, out in public, I can’t exactly call my husband, “Dear.” It’s so ODD to have to use his given name, I can’t even tell you how weird it is! And yet, calling him “Dear” would just be improper given that we are around others who are not family.

That’s something every couple goes through, I’m sure.

Even if you are in the company of friends or family, it is generally better to be considerate of what makes them feel uncomfortable - within reason of course. Also, you are young and in love - many of us have been there, but are old enough that we can look back at the time with some distance. I would bet that many of us would agree that in that wonderful time of life, being consumed by the excitement of new love, we didn’t always have the most objective perspective about everything. It may be that what feels so right to you, really is a bit much to most of the people around you. People might feel annoyed by too much affection, even if it isn’t physical, or they might feel like they are watching interactions that should be more private or intimate. Or they might feel like you are not really “present” to them because you are consumed with each other, or they might feel left out, if your affection with each other causes frequent interruptions in the socializing of the group. If you get the feeling that your behavior as a couple makes other people uncomfortable, try to look at it from their perspective, and consider if what would be preferred is unreasonable to ask of you.

 

[Aggies08]

Could this appear that your attention is more focused toward one another, than helping the kids do whatever they are supposed to be doing with you?

Trying to be an example is great, but if you are so busy being “cute” with each other, and oblivious to the kids you are working with/over the top with it, it would get old. fast.

just another POV.

 

[Tietjen]

Wow… I didn’t expect that so many would be so tied in knots over innocent pet names between couples. Maybe it’s because I’m in the south where a waitress at the local diner calls me “hon” when she takes my order. LOL, do what you think is best OP, but if it were me in your situation, I’d continue to be sweetly “silly” with the one that I love. If the “leaders” are uncomfortable with the words “sweetheart” or “honey” or God forbid the dreaded “Pooh Bear” then I would take my talents to another parish ministry. Maybe one that doesn’t feel the need to suppress loving (yet chaste) relationships… Theology on Tap comes to mind.

Loosen up people. Sheesh.

 

[PaulinVA]

Is the situation I found myself in a source of scandal to those around us? Should a couple, for the sake of not making anyone feel uncomfortable, hold back a little bit more in shows of affection (even non physical) for the sake of others?

No, it’s not a source of scandal. It’s a source of irritation.

Treat each other with the same respect you give everyone else, but youth group meetings should not be the “Jerome and his Girlfriend” hour. It is not about you at all. People who don’t know you should remark after a few meetings, “Oh, they’re dating? I never would have known if you didn’t tell me”.

A lot of people are uncomfortable around any aspect of goofy young love.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Wow… I didn’t expect that so many would be so tied in knots over innocent pet names between couples. Maybe it’s because I’m in the south where a waitress at the local diner calls me “hon” when she takes my order. LOL, do what you think is best OP, but if it were me in your situation, I’d continue to be sweetly “silly” with the one that I love. If the “leaders” are uncomfortable with the words “sweetheart” or “honey” or God forbid the dreaded “Pooh Bear” then I would take my talents to another parish ministry. Maybe one that doesn’t feel the need to suppress loving (yet chaste) relationships… Theology on Tap comes to mind.

Loosen up people. Sheesh.

Theology on Tap is a program for young adults - specifically those over 21 who can legally drink. In that situation, many of the participants may also be dating/courtshiping and would be closer in age to the OP. The programthe OP is involved with is for younger teens (maybe 14-18) who are probably not dating at all.

Someone who doesn’t know you name at all (the waitress) would have to use some kind of generic name. It could be sir/ma’am or “hon”, but obviously the waitress isn’t sweet talking you and probably calls everyone- man, woman, or child “hon”.

I applaud the OP for deciding to not use pet names while at youth group.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Wow… I didn’t expect that so many would be so tied in knots over innocent pet names between couples. Maybe it’s because I’m in the south where a waitress at the local diner calls me “hon” when she takes my order. LOL, do what you think is best OP, but if it were me in your situation, I’d continue to be sweetly “silly” with the one that I love. If the “leaders” are uncomfortable with the words “sweetheart” or “honey” or God forbid the dreaded “Pooh Bear” then I would take my talents to another parish ministry. Maybe one that doesn’t feel the need to suppress loving (yet chaste) relationships… Theology on Tap comes to mind.

Loosen up people. Sheesh.

We’re not “tied up in knots.” We’re giving our honest experience that you probably don’t have yet. Again, it’s not about the OP and his girlfriend, it’s about the job they are doing. If they worked at the same company, do you imagine the employer would allow them to use pet names on the job? (Lots of companies don’t allow that sort of fraternizing anyway, but just play along) It sure wouldn’t impress their fellow employees!

The OP seems to be sensible because he recognizes that others are uncomfortable when he and his girlfriend start up with the goofy names. It’s how we all get along in society, by paying attention to what others expect as far as behavior norms.

 

[Tietjen]

But no. He really doesn’t want to stop calling his girlfriend, “Babe,” or “Honey,” or “Sweetie,” EVEN THOUGH he’s being told that it is making others (the kids, probably) uncomfortable. So, there is an element of belligerence to his stance - “It’s not MY problem, it’s YOUR problem.” That sort of attitude is not conducive to ministry. Do you understand that the sweetie names are not really the problem? It’s the attitude behind being asked to stop doing something on the job (yes, I know it’s a volunteer position but still), and refusing to stop. You can appeal the rules, through proper channels; you can quit the job based on principles; but you can’t really eat your cake and have it too - If you flip your middle finger in front of your superiors, you’ll get the boot.
As others have said, I would have to question this person’s sincere desire to help others, if he is rebelling like this on a very small request to stop using terms of endearment in front of the young people he’s supposed to be there for. What other issues are going to come up in the future, if this is the way he approaches being asked to stop doing something?

Respectfully TRJ, the statement above assumes a lot on your part. I haven’t picked up on the OP having an “attitude of belligerence” based off of what has been said in this thread. If his peers (his word) are upset when he and/or his girlfriend slips (again his word) and uses a term of endearment, then I find these assumptions out of line. Based off of one or two posts you seem to have created a profile of the OP that “question this person’s sincere desire to help others.” I find this characterization far more alarming than hearing that a couple refers to one another with words such as sweetheart.

We’re not “tied up in knots.” We’re giving our honest experience that you probably don’t have yet.

Assuming again. I can assure you that this father of three adult children and grandfather to a beautiful little girl has had many experiences in this lifetime. Please do not direct your assumptions at me.

Again, it’s not about the OP and his girlfriend, it’s about the job they are doing.

And you assume that the “job they are doing” will be for not because of an occasional slip of the tongue and a “sweetheart” comes out and enters the ears of a 16 year old? Really?

If they worked at the same company, do you imagine the employer would allow them to use pet names on the job? (Lots of companies don’t allow that sort of fraternizing anyway, but just play along) It sure wouldn’t impress their fellow employees!

I highlighted your word “If” because it’s such a magical word. It has the ability to change or cause doubt by creating whole new scenarios which have nothing to do with what reality may be. The fact is that the situation which you described after using the word “If” is not the reality stated in the original post. If you truly find something offensive about the poster’s actual situation, then keep the ball on that playing field rather than create an entirely different situation.

Now, have at it. I’ll leave it alone for the sake of “tied knots” and to avoid possibly offending anyone. If there are those that become uncomfortable over the word “sweetheart” or “honey,” I can only imagine how angry people will be over a difference of opinion. Peace all.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Snipped for emphasis.

This has caused some concern among our leaders because supposedly (emphasis mine) it makes people feel awkward around us. (Why not just accept what the others have told you, especially if you generally trust them? Why would they tell you something that isn’t true, that others are uncomfortable?

I don’t see a reason to change this, especially considering we’ve toned down any verbal form of affection A LOT when in the presence of our youth. (But enough remains to make people uncomfortable, so it’s time to knock it off completely.)

I feel very strongly about this because 1. This, God Willing, is my vocation. 2. I see the opportunity to provide to our youth an example that Honorable Courtship is very possible 3. Because I don’t want to be a point of scandal for any of the youth.

I’m in a bit of a rut because I don’t see any moral wrong to really change my ways… or to adjust for the sake of the opinions of others. Any (name removed by moderator)ut will be greatly appreciated. Should the cheese stop? should I serve crackers and wine?

(He doesn’t see any reason to change and doesn’t want to adjust for others’ opinions. That’s going to make life rather hard in the future in so many different arenas.)

This is for Tietjen. Don’t see any attitude here? I sure do. Although to be fair, he was not as obnoxious about it as some might have been. His 3rd paragraph here says that he does not want to be a point of scandal, so I imagine that is where the chink in his armor allowed him to be humble and acquiesce.

Thankfully, the OP shifted his attitude since this post and now says he will cooperate with what he’s been requested to do, and will stop using pet names in the presence of others.

 

[Tietjen]

This is for Tietjen. Don’t see any attitude here? I sure do. Although to be fair, he was not as obnoxious about it as some might have been. His 3rd paragraph here says that he does not want to be a point of scandal, so I imagine that is where the chink in his armor allowed him to be humble and acquiesce.

Thankfully, the OP shifted his attitude since this post and now says he will cooperate with what he’s been requested to do, and will stop using pet names in the presence of others.

Nope, I don’t… but then again it may be that God hasn’t given me the gift of being able to evaluate a person’s persona based off a single post. Or perhaps it’s simply my inexperience.

 

[Sillara]

In my experience as someone who spent a great deal of time in youth ministry before my marriage, I see the following.

1. The OP’s behavior with his girlfriend is not wrong. (It might be irritating, might not, but it’s not wrong.)
2. The OP has been told by his superiors in the ministry to stop.
3. He should stop. He should stop, not because his behavior is wrong, but because he has been told to. Calling your girlfriend pet names isn’t wrong. Disobedience is.

Feel free to appeal the command, but obey it in the interim.

After all, St. Teresa of Avila was ordered to keep her visions quiet and to flat-out ignore them. She did, though she knew her visions were true and accurate and of God. And Our Lord told her that that obedience of hers to her confessor pleased Him exceedingly.