X
Xantippe
Guest
The term “girlfriendzoning” has been coined to cover this particular situation.
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K
KiwiBliss
Guest
That term definitely describes his behavior toward me. Most of my experiences with so-called guy friends have been me put into this situation, having to confront the guy of my interest in friendship only, and the guy leaving. Maybe I’m just not meant to have guy friends.
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Xantippe
Guest
Something I’ve mentioned before on CAF is that female-female friendships have an emotional color that often (mildly) resembles a romantic relationship with regard to emotional intimacy. It’s easy for women to bring that style of friendship to a female-male friendship, where it may be misunderstood.
So aside from giving up on guys, you might want to try a cooler (more masculine) style of friendship.
K
KiwiBliss
Guest
Do you mean like being a “tomboy” or considered “one of the guys” type of female friend?..been there- I liked when guy friends treated me as a trusted friend to do activities with, but at one point I got tired of their farting jokes, pokemon obsession, and doing the same activities without creating new activities for fun. My interest in wanting to grow up seemed quicker than their interest in doing so. I got bored with sticking to the same old stuff with them and moved onto girly stuff to find where I belong… that didn’t work either; I guess I’m in the middle between tomboy and being a girly-girl. I think just being aware of how men and women think differently and being sensitive to each person’s personality or love language (among friendships) is key to trying to relate to men at a consistent friendship level and sticking to the casual wave gesture (instead of hugs- that bugs me when they assume it’s okay). What have you tried in your friendships that has proven successful?
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Xantippe
Guest
Nah–I just mean trying to treat a platonic male friend the same as a female friend or a boyfriend.
K
KiwiBliss
Guest
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks.
C
chevalier
Guest
It kind of works both ways. Men are usually cooler, more distant and more sparing with the more delicate kind of PDA — as opposed to exaggerated handshakes, clapping the other guy on the back or punching him on the shoulder etc. (depends on the individual, but there are also some cultural differences) that we don’t normally expose women to, though exceptions happen in sibling or sibling-like relationships. However, we can be and normally are more tender than that with our sisters and, by extension, all the ‘little sisters’ we pick up along the way that aren’t related by blood. The affection and PDA in those relationships is usually much different from the typically rougher kind we have with brothers and ‘brothers’, with whom such tenderness would not normally feel right (exceptions happen; historically much more than modernly). Even mum is different from dad in the same way.
But, the way humans are wired, complete with a penchant for wishful thinking and all that, affection can be misunderstood, just as interest in a person can be mistaken for romantic interest. Perhaps more so by men than by women, though I wouldn’t bet my lunch money on that.
With women, there’s a risk that the more unified, shall we say, or more uniform, structure of affection can in fact be misunderstood by themselves, not only by men, perhaps more easily than a man could hesitate between friendly and romantic affection (which, of course, is far from never happening to us poor confused blokes).
I believe our ancestors’s friendships were generally more tender (including between men, for the record), and the whole business with focusing on precise discernment of feelings as opposed to chastity and fidelity is a relatively new thing. Probably still a matter of degree more than quality anyway. Hence it’s not quite intuitive yet.
C
chevalier
Guest
Good one. Still, the woman’s just as much of an independent, thinking and decisionmaking person as the man, just as forced to sometimes make difficult decisions where one can’t have the cake and eat it too, so she can hardly complain there are some complications if she wants to avoid romance but still not lose the man’s company as a friend. If I, as a man, couldn’t return a lady friend’s feelings but didn’t want to end the friendship or put it on hold, I certainly wouldn’t expect the road to be without bumps. No matter which sex, one can’t expect another human being to have an on/off switch for anything that involves emotions.
Good idea. I’ve consistently had similar experience myself. It’s just that I used to ignore those misgivings when I was younger. Practically always ended up thanking God for the fact the relationship either ended or never (officially) started. It’s important to notice and think about red flags early, before the blossoming and blooming affection and romance clouds one’s mind, complete with the butterflies and cosy feelings and feeling of something special and extraordinary going on, all of which makes it more difficult to interrupt the transition.
Re: advice about friendships with guys: Don’t flirt or tease even in jest. It won’t always be misunderstood, but there’s always a large risk. Similarly, be careful if guys flirt or tease because while it’s sometimes nothing more than a compliment or joke between friends, there’s always a chance there’s something Freudian to it. Be somewhat careful about attending events as male friend’s companion, especially dance partner or something of the sort, especially if you can expect the atmosphere of the event to become conducive to precisely the thing you want to avoid. Be careful with alcohol and evening air, the latter of which can in fact be even more intoxicating. Long walks, moonlight, stars, sentimental music etc., all those things affect people’s moods and while some friendships can handle that, not all can. And in any case always be extra careful with dancing. Not every organism (not just conscious brain) regards those flashy romantic or flirtatious moves, close holds and rapid spins and women fainting in men’s arms as mere theatre that means nothing and triggers nothing. With apologies for speaking perhaps a little too bluntly, I frankly suspect most people use that kind of dancing as an outlet for frustrated sexual energy and most of them, not to be sexist but especially women, aren’t even aware. So avoid it. There’s no shame in skipping a dancing event on a day one feels particularly lonely or in need of opposite-sex company.
C
chevalier
Guest
Oh, and one more thing. If you need to tell a man to back off a bit, it doesn’t have to be as difficult as many people make it out to be. The key is to be clear, determined, respectful and not unfriendly. Simply not being a good fit or not being able to return the feelings is a fair reason that settles the matter with neither need nor room for second-guessing. Anything else leads to unnecessary drama. There may be one or two attempts to ask if you’re sure or if it’s definite, so don’t get offended, just say yes it is, and be done with it.
K
KiwiBliss
Guest
Last year while on a dating fast, a close guy friend invited me to a familiar country-line dance event. He was invited by his female roommate who was going with her boyfriend and my friend didn’t want to go by himself, especially since his girlfriend lives in another state. That info was a bit awkward to fathom in and of itself. I gotta be honest that I really liked this guy friend, but tried not to show it b/c the friendship was more important. I brought my close female friend along to the event. He mostly clinged to talking and dancing near me than my female friend who came with me. I tried to include both in conversations, but it was kinda awkward. I know this guy friend is an introvert like me while the female friend is an extrovert and can talk to anyone, but still he knew her somewhat. Most times to escape the awkwardness, I would go out on dance floor and country-line dance (in modest sense always- I’m in-tune with my actions being watched) and this guy friend after a little bit would follow me while female friend stayed sitting and watching people dance. I know what being the “third-wheel” is like and that bothered me how left out in a sense the female friend appeared. During this dating fast on another night, I invited him and another guy friend to my house to do movie night (watch an action movie & eat snacks, then they leave). Well, my parents weren’t going to be home when we scheduled it and that bothered me. So I sent him a massive text about me being on a dating fast and not being comfortable with them coming over & whatever else I said. That ended the friendship, but sometimes at church I see him and he’s friendly and waves, but that’s where I leave it. He now substituted me with a new female friend who goes to bars with him and does other activities (that him, another guy friend, & I used to do). More dejavu experiences with guys that happens after I stop being friends with them- they find someone else to fill the space and supposedly move on, while I find more female friends to keep in touch with. Nothing like more dejavu. Forgot to mention that guy friends I’m attracted to aren’t attracted to me while those I’m not attracted to are attracted to me. Am I looking for the wrong type or what? Does that make any sense?Good one. Still, the woman’s just as much of an independent, thinking and decisionmaking person as the man, just as forced to sometimes make difficult decisions where one can’t have the cake and eat it too, so she can hardly complain there are some complications if she wants to avoid romance but still not lose the man’s company as a friend. If I, as a man, couldn’t return a lady friend’s feelings but didn’t want to end the friendship or put it on hold, I certainly wouldn’t expect the road to be without bumps. No matter which sex, one can’t expect another human being to have an on/off switch for anything that involves emotions.
Good idea. I’ve consistently had similar experience myself. It’s just that I used to ignore those misgivings when I was younger. Practically always ended up thanking God for the fact the relationship either ended or never (officially) started. It’s important to notice and think about red flags early, before the blossoming and blooming affection and romance clouds one’s mind, complete with the butterflies and cosy feelings and feeling of something special and extraordinary going on, all of which makes it more difficult to interrupt the transition.
Re: advice about friendships with guys: Don’t flirt or tease even in jest. It won’t always be misunderstood, but there’s always a large risk. Similarly, be careful if guys flirt or tease because while it’s sometimes nothing more than a compliment or joke between friends, there’s always a chance there’s something Freudian to it. Be somewhat careful about attending events as male friend’s companion, especially dance partner or something of the sort, especially if you can expect the atmosphere of the event to become conducive to precisely the thing you want to avoid. Be careful with alcohol and evening air, the latter of which can in fact be even more intoxicating. Long walks, moonlight, stars, sentimental music etc., all those things affect people’s moods and while some friendships can handle that, not all can. And in any case always be extra careful with dancing. Not every organism (not just conscious brain) regards those flashy romantic or flirtatious moves, close holds and rapid spins and women fainting in men’s arms as mere theatre that means nothing and triggers nothing. With apologies for speaking perhaps a little too bluntly, I frankly suspect most people use that kind of dancing as an outlet for frustrated sexual energy and most of them, not to be sexist but especially women, aren’t even aware. So avoid it. There’s no shame in skipping a dancing event on a day one feels particularly lonely or in need of opposite-sex company.
K
KiwiBliss
Guest
Yeah, I need to work on my reciprocated reaction to guy friends flirting/teasing me (in the pure sense). I like the attention perhaps because it gives me a glimpse or proof of a guy actually being interested in me, which I know is a lack of self-esteem and am currently in progress. A lot of your advice is what my parents have told me and what I’ve found, but thank you for sharing info anyways.Good one. Still, the woman’s just as much of an independent, thinking and decisionmaking person as the man, just as forced to sometimes make difficult decisions where one can’t have the cake and eat it too, so she can hardly complain there are some complications if she wants to avoid romance but still not lose the man’s company as a friend. If I, as a man, couldn’t return a lady friend’s feelings but didn’t want to end the friendship or put it on hold, I certainly wouldn’t expect the road to be without bumps. No matter which sex, one can’t expect another human being to have an on/off switch for anything that involves emotions.
Good idea. I’ve consistently had similar experience myself. It’s just that I used to ignore those misgivings when I was younger. Practically always ended up thanking God for the fact the relationship either ended or never (officially) started. It’s important to notice and think about red flags early, before the blossoming and blooming affection and romance clouds one’s mind, complete with the butterflies and cosy feelings and feeling of something special and extraordinary going on, all of which makes it more difficult to interrupt the transition.
Re: advice about friendships with guys: Don’t flirt or tease even in jest. It won’t always be misunderstood, but there’s always a large risk. Similarly, be careful if guys flirt or tease because while it’s sometimes nothing more than a compliment or joke between friends, there’s always a chance there’s something Freudian to it. Be somewhat careful about attending events as male friend’s companion, especially dance partner or something of the sort, especially if you can expect the atmosphere of the event to become conducive to precisely the thing you want to avoid. Be careful with alcohol and evening air, the latter of which can in fact be even more intoxicating. Long walks, moonlight, stars, sentimental music etc., all those things affect people’s moods and while some friendships can handle that, not all can. And in any case always be extra careful with dancing. Not every organism (not just conscious brain) regards those flashy romantic or flirtatious moves, close holds and rapid spins and women fainting in men’s arms as mere theatre that means nothing and triggers nothing. With apologies for speaking perhaps a little too bluntly, I frankly suspect most people use that kind of dancing as an outlet for frustrated sexual energy and most of them, not to be sexist but especially women, aren’t even aware. So avoid it. There’s no shame in skipping a dancing event on a day one feels particularly lonely or in need of opposite-sex company.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
C
chevalier
Guest
Two things come to mind. Some people just have that problem: people they’re attracted to aren’t attracted to them and vice versa. It’s complicated, and I honestly can’t even begin to string together a sensible hypothetical explanation, I just know it happens for some people, myself included. The closest thing to a hypothesis I have is that the more factors are relevant (the more complicated the list of positive and negative preferences) and the rarer they are, the more the probability of a successful match decreases. This is similar to how you multiply fractions in compound probability calculations, e.g. chance of throwing 3 and 4 on two dice throws. For example there may be 6 billion people in the world, but narrow it down to one specific sex and age range, single of course, practicing Catholic, faithful Catholic, physically attractive, intellectually compatible, complementary character… if all the requirements are to be met simultaneously the pool can be in the thousands, not even millions. Say you find 1 in 10 people attractive, 1 in 5 interesting to talk to, 1 in 3 compatible in some other way… of course the traits coexist to some extent, so it’s not as bad as p = 0.1 x 0.2 x 0.33, but the numbers certainly don’t look too optimistic. The other good thing is that we have this kind of radar that we just spot the good fits and pick them out, so it’s not exactly horrible in real life, in the end, but the numbers just help visualize the challenge.
On the other hand, it’s easy to overestimate other people’s dating success rates and underestimate one’s own — the grass is always greener… Other people have their own difficulties and problems, as do their relationships.
What else? You may want to talk to a psychologist if you suspect the awkwardness could be the result of something like a difficult or distant relationship with either parent (or between parents), something traumatizing about a past boyfriend etc. That sort of stuff tends to be difficult to sort out just on one’s own. There are people in their 40s who still haven’t managed. Also introverts find it difficult (though even people with Asperger’s find partners).
Nothing wrong with that, just remember that to a lot of people it doesn’t always mean much more than a compliment or joke and says little about people’s readiness to even think about pursuing a potential relationship, even if you actually know them but especially if you don’t. There’s a reason why women sometimes have to specifically ask men to clarify their intentions and why men agonize over (alleged, or totally imaginated) hints and clues. Difficulties with self-esteem can indeed make it harder to get a good guess.
Well, looks like I’m not much off then.
It’s a great thing you can talk to your parents about all that.
C
chevalier
Guest
According to my father, you don’t choose a wife. She does the choosing and all the elements bow to her will once she’s made the choice.
(I need to ask to know the other side of that theory one day. Could be quite educational. I suspect it’s going to come out along the lines of ‘he was always a big talker’ (and I a silly goose), but I’m keeping an open mind.)
K
KiwiBliss
Guest
I highly recommend you read “Men, Women, & the Mystery of Love” by Edward Sri or “Love & Responsibility” by JPII or even a deeper knowledge of 1 Corinthians 13.
K
KiwiBliss
Guest
Wow, that was intense a bit- the mathematical example of chances to a mate or not. Thanks for sharing.Two things come to mind. Some people just have that problem: people they’re attracted to aren’t attracted to them and vice versa. It’s complicated, and I honestly can’t even begin to string together a sensible hypothetical explanation, I just know it happens for some people, myself included. The closest thing to a hypothesis I have is that the more factors are relevant (the more complicated the list of positive and negative preferences) and the rarer they are, the more the probability of a successful match decreases. This is similar to how you multiply fractions in compound probability calculations, e.g. chance of throwing 3 and 4 on two dice throws. For example there may be 6 billion people in the world, but narrow it down to one specific sex and age range, single of course, practicing Catholic, faithful Catholic, physically attractive, intellectually compatible, complementary character… if all the requirements are to be met simultaneously the pool can be in the thousands, not even millions. Say you find 1 in 10 people attractive, 1 in 5 interesting to talk to, 1 in 3 compatible in some other way… of course the traits coexist to some extent, so it’s not as bad as p = 0.1 x 0.2 x 0.33, but the numbers certainly don’t look too optimistic. The other good thing is that we have this kind of radar that we just spot the good fits and pick them out, so it’s not exactly horrible in real life, in the end, but the numbers just help visualize the challenge.
On the other hand, it’s easy to overestimate other people’s dating success rates and underestimate one’s own — the grass is always greener… Other people have their own difficulties and problems, as do their relationships.
What else? You may want to talk to a psychologist if you suspect the awkwardness could be the result of something like a difficult or distant relationship with either parent (or between parents), something traumatizing about a past boyfriend etc. That sort of stuff tends to be difficult to sort out just on one’s own. There are people in their 40s who still haven’t managed. Also introverts find it difficult (though even people with Asperger’s find partners).
Nothing wrong with that, just remember that to a lot of people it doesn’t always mean much more than a compliment or joke and says little about people’s readiness to even think about pursuing a potential relationship, even if you actually know them but especially if you don’t. There’s a reason why women sometimes have to specifically ask men to clarify their intentions and why men agonize over (alleged, or totally imaginated) hints and clues. Difficulties with self-esteem can indeed make it harder to get a good guess.
Well, looks like I’m not much off then.
It’s likely that looking for the wrong type of man started in my childhood, when I played with Barbies & the only male recognized was Ken (blonde hair, blue eyes, tan, surfer). Ads then for toys and female fashion were centered on a similar image of Barbie and Ken dolls. Then many films focused on the Life of the Party jock (typically blonde hair, blue eyes, tan) who grew to like the nerdy/quiet girl who although was unpopular was eventually found to be a great gal inside-out. There are Disney Channel films (Camp Rock, Lizzie McGuire movie, etc.) that gravitate on this mentality & the more attention or emphasis that is being recognized, the greater the audience may be influenced into thinking that that can happen. To sum it up, I’ve mostly been the quiet/unique gal who gets anxious when a cute guy is nearby while a jock gets annoyed for recognizing a spunky gal that he (whoever) can’t use for pleasure. It’s interestingly odd as I type this how much self-confidence and spunk I’ve already got even during those stupid years of finding my worth in a fragile & insecure guy. I’ve ditched watching most films, since those don’t portray an actual experience from occurring in reality & because chic-flick films (Hallmark, Disney, Romance, etc) specify the behavioral experiences that happen when you see the other person- not so much on how compatible both people could be. Which means that those films also signify appearance as most important & I disagree although I’ve lived with looking for a guy thru appearance-focused. My strategy to weed-out the pathetic/fake guys is thru unconventional ways that catch them off-guard to see who they are under the carefully planned mask.
I’ve met with a psychologist about this minorly. But have analyzed my reactions toward past experiences and relationships with others. It does intertwine, but that’s as far as I will share.
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chevalier
Guest
A lot of good, even strong and good, men have a fragile side (which often involves women and interacting with them) and their own insecurities. I don’t actually think one could possibly find an intelligent man without some insecurities and one or two fragible sensibilities. And thinkers more so than typical men of action, though even those.
Don’t mistake lack of reflection, lack of hesitation on a fixed course, for strength or confidence. Or confidence for strength, for that matter. That’s a very easy mistake for a woman to make, just like men fall for nice faces and superficial charm.
As for masks, to a varied extent, but most people are wearing some. That’s not necessarily deceptive, though it may well be (at least to the extent we all like to have some control over how we’re seen by others). It’s a bit like armour — you can not only fight and ride but even dance and sleep in it, but you eventually have to remove it, and there’s going to be flesh underneath.
(Now, not defending the ‘nice’ types who aren’t nice to the waiter, like that old adage goes.)
Don’t mistake lack of reflection, lack of hesitation on a fixed course, for strength or confidence. Or confidence for strength, for that matter. That’s a very easy mistake for a woman to make, just like men fall for nice faces and superficial charm.
As for masks, to a varied extent, but most people are wearing some. That’s not necessarily deceptive, though it may well be (at least to the extent we all like to have some control over how we’re seen by others). It’s a bit like armour — you can not only fight and ride but even dance and sleep in it, but you eventually have to remove it, and there’s going to be flesh underneath.
(Now, not defending the ‘nice’ types who aren’t nice to the waiter, like that old adage goes.)
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