Catholic Dating & Marriage

[lovemysix]

To the OP:

You are going to come across a lot of contradictory information out there on this subject. My best advice to you is to make an appointment with a priest you trust—and who knows you—and NOT go with whatever you happen across on the internet.

The Church does not teach that there is to be no kissing before marriage. My husband and I were both virgins on our wedding night. We kissed when we were dating. And felt a lot of passion for each other! We did refrain from French kissing, because we knew that might be an occasion of sin FOR US. But we very much enjoyed being affectionate and kissing each other on the mouth (and no, I would not have kissed my grandmother that way!). We did not grope or fondle or any of that. We have been very happily and passionately married for 17 1/2 years now.

BTW, I do know plenty of very-devout Catholic couples who are NOT very happy together. Will they stick it? Sure, most of them will. Because they both believe very strongly in the permanence of marriage. But that does not mean they are happy together. Being of strong faith does not necessarily make you compatible with somebody else. Don’t fall for that kind of thinking. Although I am sure those couples will receive God’s blessings for sticking it out, their marriages are far from what the Church teaches us is ideal. You want MORE than "sticking it’ from your marriage, don’t you?

God’s blessings to you in your discernment process. BTW, I do hope you are able to find a Catholic you can both fall in love with and be compatible with. It makes life so much easier when you are of the same faith! I would have married my husband no matter what faith he was, but I thank God that we are both Catholic.

 

[Shin]

To the OP:
The Church does not teach that there is to be no kissing before marriage. My husband and I were both virgins on our wedding night. We kissed when we were dating. And felt a lot of passion for each other!

/QUOTE]

And this was a sin, and it is a sin clearly. Thankfully you mercifully were spared afterwards a breakup but that is not the point I have been making. That does not change that it is a sin and offensive to God, nor that it is infidelity to God and to your future partner, just like pre-marital sex.

The Church teaches that lust is a sin. Period. There aren’t any wiggles. And it doesn’t take much to find this out and look it up.

You want to look positively on your ‘romance’. But this is placing your desires before God. It was a bad example, and a sin in some of the ways it took place.

Virgins in body but not in heart… are not virgins.

 

[BiologyBrain]

I plan on being chaste purely for commitment reasons. Many of my peers are non-catholic and I will not restrict myself to only catholic partners (It would be a nice bonus!).

Good for you. From my experience it is definitely more difficult to be in a mixed religious relationship than in a Catholic-Catholic one. However, with work it can work out (at least I pray for it to do so).

When you meet an attractive woman and ask her out, does the church discourage kissing and the such?

Kissing and hugging as signs of affection are not necessarily discouraged. What is discouraged is anything that leads either of you into further temptation and/or sin. If you can kiss & hug her and she can kiss & hug you w/o feeling the need for something further, go ahead IMO. The Church as far as I know doesn’t have hard-fast rules on such things. The hard-fast rules come into sex & abusing your sexuality.

Do you tell them that you are looking for marriage before the relationship “begins”?

I would encourage that b/c that’s what dating is supposed to be about. However, as you previously noted, this is a highly sexualized world we live in currently. Therefore, I would make sure to be very up-front about your intentions

Does the church discourage co-habiting even if you are not having sex?

No co-habitating b/c its very dangerous as far as tempting you to go further than allowed. It also doesn’t build any stronger of a bond. Whether you live together/sleep together prior to marriage or not, marriage changes you. It does for everyone. Each person will change in ways not obvious prior to marriage. Some is for the better, some is for the worse.

How do you know whether you can “live” with your partner before marriage (to reduce the chance of divorce)?

That’s why you’re supposed to get to know each other mentally and emotionally prior to having a physical relationship. If you do it in the right order, you will already know about your spouse’s potential bad habits, vices, and quirks that could make your path a little harder. Spend lots of time talking about various situations that you’ll most likely face. Learn each other’s strengths & weaknesses. Spend time talking to each other.

 

[Shin]

Kissing and hugging as signs of affection are not necessarily discouraged. What is discouraged is anything that leads either of you into further temptation and/or sin. If you can kiss & hug her and she can kiss & hug you w/o feeling the need for something further, go ahead IMO. The Church as far as I know doesn’t have hard-fast rules on such things.

The hard and fast rules are as follows: Lust is a sin, non-negotiable, dogma. Period. Entering willfully into a near occasion of sin, is a sin, because it is choosing to sin. Non-negotiable.

Therefor no kissing for couples is a hard and fast rule.

Now even if a couple could kiss without it being a near occasion of sin, that is without any arousal, it would still normativly be a sin because they would not know ahead of time that they could do it and would risk it and because it would be the sin of scandal. Scandal is a bad example to others.

We are called to love chastity, not hate it. To desire purity and that which protects it, not despise it.

No co-habitating b/c its very dangerous as far as tempting you to go further than allowed. It also doesn’t build any stronger of a bond. Whether you live together/sleep together prior to marriage or not, marriage changes you. It does for everyone. Each person will change in ways not obvious prior to marriage. Some is for the better, some is for the worse.

Co-habiting of course is even worse because it is living in a constant near occasion of sin and clear scandal.

If you are Catholic you are to learn the basics of the faith, and among these basics are what are sins, and what near occasions of sin are. The latter you avoid just like the former.

 

[Rascalking]

Shin et al-

Men are created very, very differently than women. When a man sees an attractive woman, it is a biological instinct to say, “I want that”. The act of looking is not “lust” it is simply a chemical reaction. As you said before, Jesus said, “whoever looks…adultery in his heart”. Notice He said, “In his heart”. Not physical. There is a difference.

By saying a young man must feel guilty for simply, and sometimes not being able to control the looking aspect, is to misunderstand male sexual nature.

And, to “lovemysix”-your post was great!

 

[Shin]

Shin et al-

Men are created very, very differently than women. When a man sees an attractive woman, it is a biological instinct to say, “I want that”. The act of looking is not “lust” it is simply a chemical reaction. As you said before, Jesus said, “whoever looks…adultery in his heart”. Notice He said, “In his heart”. Not physical. There is a difference.

By saying a young man must feel guilty for simply, and sometimes not being able to control the looking aspect, is to misunderstand male sexual nature.

Concupiscence, or the disorder of lust, is not natural, it is a disorder, this is basic Catholicism – Christ Himself has said it.

It is a consequence of the fall to be overcome, directly defeated, not indulged or ignored.

As much as one’s will indulges it, or lets it be and delectates in it even passively rather than opposing it, it is a sin. This disorder is pervasive and even has effects within marriage.

This is why in Genesis Adam and Eve are ashamed, even though they are married after the Fall.

Only the pure of heart shall see God. And yes, it can be done.

And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:3

 

[Rascalking]

Become little children?

When I was a “little child” I tried to look up the girls skirts as they went up the stairs.

Alot of other guys did as well, I’m just honest enough to admit that I did.

Your platitudes are interesting and lofty, but in the end, unhelpful to a young man attempting to live a chaste life.You equate kissing to lovemaking, and othe violations of the commandments. You eqaute looking at a women, to straight infidelity.

Your more critical than God was, for if God were you, He would have killed King David outright for his indiscretion.

I often wonder if people with your views know the damage their doing to others…by wrapping rubbish up and attaching it labels such as, “truth” or other behavior “sinful”

 

[Shin]

Become little children?

Your more critical than God was, for if God were you, He would have killed King David outright for his indiscretion.

I often wonder if people with your views know the damage their doing to others…by wrapping rubbish up and attaching it labels such as, “truth” or other behavior “sinful”

Some people sadly are raised as children in impurity, but not all – no it is not normal, not right, for a Christian child to be raised so.

One of the many consequences of the king’s sin is that the Lord killed King David’s firstborn child instead of the king himself. I suppose one spiritual meaning or lesson of this, is that when a parent commits a mortal sin it is deadly for one’s children too.

In the Old Testament generally the spiritual consquences of a sin are demonstrated materially so it is clear. People who do not take heed of this… . and belittle sin. . do not realize how close Hell is.

But one can also realize how beautiful Heaven is by thinking on purity.

But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 5:28

 

[Rascalking]

Shin-

In my brief life, I have learned that, in the words of a brilliant man,

“A frantic orthodoxy is rooted not in faith, but in doubt.”

Dwell on it.

 

[Shin]

I pray God bless you my brother.

 

[AdriannaJean]

How do you know whether you can “live” with your partner before marriage (to reduce the chance of divorce)?

People who live together before getting married actually have a higher divorce rate than those who move in together post-marriage. Common misconception though.

 

[AdriannaJean]

I think it all comes down to attraction vs lust. If kissing causes lust, then don’t do it. If you can kiss without lust, then you’re fine.

 

[lovemysix]

lovemysix;5184584:

To the OP:

And this was a sin, and it is a sin clearly. Thankfully you mercifully were spared afterwards a breakup but that is not the point I have been making. That does not change that it is a sin and offensive to God, nor that it is infidelity to God and to your future partner, just like pre-marital sex.

The Church teaches that lust is a sin. Period. There aren’t any wiggles. And it doesn’t take much to find this out and look it up.

You want to look positively on your ‘romance’. But this is placing your desires before God. It was a bad example, and a sin in some of the ways it took place.

Virgins in body but not in heart… are not virgins.

Shin,

I am sorry…I know you probably mean well…but you make me laugh. I don’t know what else to tell you. Our very good, orthodox, spiritual directors assured us that such kissing was NOT a sin. We were virgins not only in body, but in spirit as well We both regard our virginity as a beautiful gift to each other, and we are both very grateful for that. I have no need to defend myself to you or anybody else out there; I only mention this because I want to make my point with the OP.

To the OP: Again, find a faithful priest you can trust. Do NOT base your actions on the advice of anybody—and that would include myself—you find online. Not that you can’t glean some useful information online…but keep in mind that there is a lot of MISinformation out here as well.

Very few people have a really good, healthy (Catholic!) grasp of human sexuality. I suppose that is probably one of the results of the fall. When you do find a woman you love, my prayer for you is that you can love each other in the way God intended----with a lot of passion, while also being the best of friends and helping each other to heaven. God bless!

 

[Shin]

Shin;5184619:

Shin,

I am sorry…I know you probably mean well…but you make me laugh. I don’t know what else to tell you. Our very good, orthodox, spiritual directors assured us that such kissing was NOT a sin. We were virgins not only in body, but in spirit as well We both regard our virginity as a beautiful gift to each other, and we are both very grateful for that. I have no need to defend myself to you or anybody else out there; I only mention this because I want to make my point with the OP.

To the OP: Again, find a faithful priest you can trust. Do NOT base your actions on the advice of anybody—and that would include myself—you find online. Not that you can’t glean some useful information online…but keep in mind that there is a lot of MISinformation out here as well.

Very few people have a really good, healthy (Catholic!) grasp of human sexuality. I suppose that is probably one of the results of the fall. When you do find a woman you love, my prayer for you is that you can love each other in the way God intended----with a lot of passion, while also being the best of friends and helping each other to heaven. God bless!

I’d watch my step with those spiritual directors in regards to these matters if I were you. It’s faithfulness to Christ’s teachings and the Church that is what determines your salvation, not faithfulness to a human being. There is a lot of corruption in the Church nowadays regarding teachings on sexuality. We’ve just sadly seen ‘Father Cutie’ run off, and he’s not the only one by far.

And I know priests who WILL contradict what your spiritual directors say, so it is not just some random internet guy – but then it never was, all I have said is basic Catholic doctrine and dogma. Lust is sinful. You are not allowed its pleasure outside of marriage. You are not allowed to arouse it. Near occasions of sin are sinful. You’re not allowed to enter into them.

And a young man and a woman kissing, beyond the type of a peck on the cheek, is always a near occasion of sin. Always a sin. Sorry to deliver the bad news, but it’s not my opinion, it’s not some random internet thing, it’s the teachings of Christ.

You do not indulge in such sensual pleasures outside of marriage. Period.

I’d be all for plenty of whatever you want if I could be, I can’t.

Learn the basics please.

 

[lovemysix]

Shin,

I think our basic disagreement probably has to do with the fact that I don’t believe physical attraction is lust. I believe physical (and yes, sexual) attraction is a gift from God, something biologically placed in us by the Great Creator. A very powerful gift that must be closely guarded so that it is not corrupted and turned into lust. Lust is the use of another human being for your own pleasure.

So we disagree, but I will continue to hope that you (as I do) speak in good will and in the hope that all will experience human love and sexuality in the way that God intended.

And to the OP: I still maintain that the internet is not the best place to go looking for Catholic advice You can probably see what I mean by now!

 

[rpp]

Shin, much as I respect you, you are wrong on a number of points and given some very bad advice.

If you want to assert that the Church forbids kissing, cite an infallible source that mentions kissing, not something about lust. You will not be able to because no such infallible teaching exists. Expressing affection is not lust.

This may not be true for all. For some people, any physical contact, such as hand-holding will arouse them sexually. People who react this way should avoid that behavior. Others, a simple kiss for most normal people, especially people for who chastity is important will not result in sexual arousal.

Erotic attraction is not lust and in an essential ingredient in marriage. Lust, on the other hand, is disordered erotic attraction usually involving objectifying another person or seeking sexul gratification.

Concupiscence has nothing to do with lust as such, but rather with the tendency to sin, any kind of sin. It is a result of Original Sin which

Getting back on topic…

I would recommend a book that I am currently reading. The Exclamation: The Wise Choice for a Spouse for Catholic Marriage by Patricia Wrona. It directly answers the question posed in the OP.

 

[teachccd]

Then forgive me! God has already.

I follow the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth. Well, at least the ones that make sense.

Christianity is just another cult of personality blown way out of proportions.

Spoken like a true follower of Christ…

 

[rpp]

Then forgive me! God has already.

I follow the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth. Well, at least the ones that make sense.

Christianity is just another cult of personality blown way out of proportions.

This is off topic, but your post begs the question: If this is how you feel, how is it that you call yourself “Catholic” in your profile?

 

[Syphro]

This is off topic, but your post begs the question: If this is how you feel, how is it that you call yourself “Catholic” in your profile?

Meh, I agree with many catholic teachings and tend to disregard the myth and lore written over 2000 years ago. I can’t really see how greek legends are disregarded and yet the bible is taken literally by some.

I follow a catholic life, and that is all that matters.

 

[tvdxer]

The most helpful resource on this topic in my opinion, which is neither too lax (most of the world) or too rigorous (Shin, at least in the way he comes off) is here:

ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/vexperts/conference.htm

Also see the very orthodox Fr. John Hardon, S.J. 's article, delivered with his characteristic levelheadedness and reason:

therealpresence.org/archives/Moral_Theology/Moral_Theology_009.htm

It cannot be overemphasized that venereal pleasure in itself is not sinful, otherwise married people could not indulge it and, in fact, have a sacrament instituted by Christ to regulate its enjoyment. Even in the unmarried, such pleasure is natural and responds to a divinely-implanted instinct whose purpose is the noble one of leading men and women to conceive and procreate children. It may last for hours without a shred of guilt. But for the unmarried it is wrong to yield to that pleasure in the sense of wanting it in the body by knowing it is there, consenting to its presence and enjoying the genital stimulation which it gives. All three elements must be verified to constitute sin for the unmarried. It is indifferent whether the pleasure is deliberately procured or arises spontaneously; what is forbidden is the intentional yielding to an excitation of the generative organs.

Passionate, sexual kissing is sinful between partners, affectionate kissing is not necessarily so, if not done for “venereal pleasure” (pleasure felt in the genitals) or where there is risk of consent.

The same thing goes with hugs, dancing, holding hands, etc. - if you do them for the purpose of sexual (venereal) pleasure, they are sinful. But they are not necessarily sinful.