Catholic Democrat and voting for pro-choice politicians

[LeafByNiggle]

It is not a question simply of whether he actively promotes abortion. For a legislator in the end it comes down to how he will vote, either for or against bills to limit abortion, or for or against (especially Supreme) court nominees. When the votes are taken, an individual’s personal view on abortion does not matter; only his vote counts.

Suppose my neighbor is a somewhat pro-choice legislator in the state legislature. On this particular day, his car breaks down and he asks me for a ride to work. I don’t know what legislation is scheduled for today, but there is a chance it might deal with abortion. Question: is it sinful cooperation with evil to give him aid by driving him to work today? The point of the question is to see whether the aid given to a politician by voting for him is different from other kinds of aid that might equally benefit the furtherance of his pro-choice agenda. (I would have said he was a national congressman, but the thought of a congressman needing a ride from me was just too far fetched to even imagine.)

 

[NeedsMercy]

The only way to measure your conscience is by the teachings of the Church. All Catholics should be using the same “yardstick” in that regard.

Church teaching is clear on the subject of abortion, yes. But there is no one Church teaching that tells a person how to vote. For that reason, a person’s conscience plays a key role in the voting process. If I have a choice between a candidate whom I believe is correct on x number of social issues, and who happens to be pro-choice, and a pro-life candidate whom I disagree with on those same social issues, my conscience may tell me to vote for the former candidate. But, again, your conscience may tell you differently.

 

[NeedsMercy]

The mere fact that our conscience chooses one action over another does not justify what we have done. If the act is wrong, the fact that we have done it with a clear conscience does not make it right, and while we cannot judge another person’s conscience we can surely judge his actions.

Ender

I don’t know what your definition of “wrong” is, so I can’t comment.

 

[NeedsMercy]

Exactly. The Church teaches the primacy of conscience but she also teaches that one’s conscience can be malformed. Depending on how diligently a person forms his/her conscience, following a malformed conscience can be sinful as well.

And who exactly is the arbiter as to whether or not a person’s conscience is “malformed”?

 

[NeedsMercy]

It isn’t about following my measuring stick of your measuring stick on someone else’s measuring stick. All Catholics are required to use the same measuring stick, Churches measuring stick. And the Church says that voting for someone who that you know is Pro Choice is a Grave Sin.

I repeat, if you vote for a person because they are pro-choice, that indeed would be against Church teaching. But for every Catholic cleric that says that voting for a pro-choice candidate for reasons other than his/her pro-choice stance is a “grave sin” there is another that says it is not.

 

[NeedsMercy]

Excuse #4 and #8.

REASONS FOR VOTING FOR PRO-ABORTION POLITICIANS

1. National Republicans aren’t “really” pro-life, so it’s okay if I vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
2. Specific candidate isn’t “really” pro-life, or I don’t believe his supposed change of belief, so it’s okay if I vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
3. My deacon/priest/bishop/cardinal told me or wrote me a letter telling me it was okay to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
4. I’m not a one-issue voter, so I can ignore the Church’s teaching and vote for the virulently pro-abortion politician.
5. Republicans (at any level) have not passed enough pro-life laws (as decided by me), so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
6. Republicans (at any level) have not had enough success on pro-life issues (as decided by me), so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
7. Roe vs. Wade is still the law of the land even though most Supreme Court justices were appointed by the Republicans, therefore Republicans aren’t serious about abortion, so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
8. I found a Church document that mentioned proportionate reasons in voting, so I personally judged support for a higher minimum wage (or other social justice cause) was on equal footing with abortion, and I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
9. I personally believe that Democratic policies will reduce abortions, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
10. We can’t do anything about abortion until we change the hearts and minds of the people, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
11. You can’t legislate morality, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
12. People will still have abortions even if you make them illegal, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
13. We can’t end abortion until we address the root causes, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
14. I can’t impose my beliefs on other people, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
15. There isn’t any difference between the parties, so it is okay for me to vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.

Could you tell me the Church document where you found these so-called “excuses” ? They sound pretty off-the-wall…

 

[Sunflake9]

Obviously not, but my point is what if a woman is considering abortion because she has just found out that her baby will need several surgeries after it is born? Lack of money and insurance could easily influence her to decide for the abortion.

Unfortunately you could be right about money making women think about getting an abortion. The answer as I see it is this, there is always adoption. If that child would cause such upheaval in your financial stability you should give more thought to letting someone else who wants or can afford more children the gift of adoption! In my mind there is no reason to ever kill the most innocent people in society, let alone one of Gods gifts. There is always a better option.

 

[Milasol]

So this is my dilemma. I am a democrat and a pro-life Catholic. I also do not agree with homosexual marriage. Now my question is, is it a sin to vote for a democrat that happens to be prochoice. I do not agree with the republican agenda other then the marriage and the pro-life aspects. If I were to vote for a democrat who happens to be pro-choice but do not agree with it at all but I agree with their stance on almost everything else would this be counted as sin?

Abortion is the worst sin and we will all be judged on it. Sins of omission and also if we were accomplices by voting for someone who is pro-choice.

If one sees a man across the street beating a woman to death and we sit there not doing anything, it doesn’t makes us peaceful. It makes us accomplices. We have to at least try to do a good deed.

Abortion is the test of our lifetimes. I believe the whole of heaven cries when an abortion is done. We will most certainly be judged on it. Don’t vote for anyone who is pro-choice. The abortion issue is the battle of our times.

You might not agree with republicans but democrats have stated, by their own self-admission, that they are a pro-choice party. If it was up to them we will still have partial birth abortion.

Don’t vote pro-choice, vote your conscious. Vote pro-life!

 

[cargau]

Some people can’t vote for Republicans because they seem to be pro-homicide of babies who happen to live in Iraq or Afghanistan.

These people need to use their conscience to decide who to vote for, just as you use your own conscience to decide who to vote for.

Women have the power to decide whether or not to have abortions, whether it is legal or illegal. Politicians have the power to decide whether or not to kill people in other countries.

This outlook makes me sad. The US went to war in Afghanistan as a response to the terror attack on 9/11. At that time, going to war was virtually unanimous as both democrats and republicans voted for the war. Going to war is not an exclusively republican trait. Roosevelt took us into WWII, Truman dropped the atomic bombs and Kennedy/Johnson led us into and through Vietnam. It was Nixon, a republican who got us out of Vietnam.

Abortion has been a fundamental part of the democratic platform for decades. Voting for a candidate who supports this vile practice in the name of women’s rights makes me ill. I seriously wonder how any person with such a perspective can lead on any other issue.

There are no issues that rise to the importance of crime of abortion. None.

 

[Ender]

Suppose my neighbor is a somewhat pro-choice legislator in the state legislature. On this particular day, his car breaks down and he asks me for a ride to work. I don’t know what legislation is scheduled for today, but there is a chance it might deal with abortion. Question: is it sinful cooperation with evil to give him aid by driving him to work today?

I recognize there are gray areas where there can be genuine doubt about what constitutes cooperation that is sinful. Such doubt, however, does not extend to the election of candidates to national and state legislative and executive offices. Abortion is a major, persistent issue that is addressed at the state and national level, and in most instances it is clear where the candidates stand on the issue. Voting for someone who supports abortion is assuredly cooperation in a great evil. Whether those who do so will be held accountable for that cooperation is something they will, eventually, discover.

Ender

 

[Ender]

I don’t know what your definition of “wrong” is, so I can’t comment.

By “wrong” I meant immoral, sinful. I have no personal definition of the terms.

Ender

 

[zz912]

Could you tell me the Church document where you found these so-called “excuses” ? They sound pretty off-the-wall…

The list is the excuses that are given by many Catholics to justify their voting for pro-abortion candidates. Why would you expect a Church document to contain them? These are the excuses of those who are rejecting Church teaching.

 

[zz912]

If I have a choice between a candidate whom I believe is correct on x number of social issues, and who happens to be pro-choice, and a pro-life candidate whom I disagree with on those same social issues, my conscience may tell me to vote for the former candidate.

Then your conscience would be malformed.

 

[Listener]

Another problem I am finding with this whole voting thing is that sometimes it is impossible to find out where a candidate stands on abortion. Yes, it is easy to find out if you are voting for President of the United States, or maybe a Senator or Representative on the Federal level.

Many times, however, when you are voting for something like a City Council Member or or a State Insurance Commissioner, it is never mentioned. You can search the Web Site and find nothing whatsoever on the lies they are going to tell about their “pro-life” position.

If you are able to somehow find out, many times you will find that both candidates are pro-choice.

So, what are you supposed to do? Vote for Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck?

The Catholic Catechism says that we have a moral obligation to vote. I don’t think that the authors of the Catechism were stupid enough to think that all candidates we could possibly vote for would be morally perfect in all things.

As for following Church teaching in this matter, I would challenge anyone to provide us with a list of candidates that the Pope has determined it is okay to vote for.

The truth is that we are to use our own conscience, not someone else’s conscience. This was the teaching back in the 1950’s when I was growing up, and it has not changed.

 

[Milasol]

Another problem I am finding with this whole voting thing is that sometimes it is impossible to find out where a candidate stands on abortion. Yes, it is easy to find out if you are voting for President of the United States, or maybe a Senator or Representative on the Federal level.

Many times, however, when you are voting for something like a City Council Member or or a State Insurance Commissioner, it is never mentioned. You can search the Web Site and find nothing whatsoever on the lies they are going to tell about their “pro-life” position.

If you are able to somehow find out, many times you will find that both candidates are pro-choice.

So, what are you supposed to do? Vote for Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck?

The Catholic Catechism says that we have a moral obligation to vote. I don’t think that the authors of the Catechism were stupid enough to think that all candidates we could possibly vote for would be morally perfect in all things.

As for following Church teaching in this matter, I would challenge anyone to provide us with a list of candidates that the Pope has determined it is okay to vote for.

The truth is that we are to use our own conscience, not someone else’s conscience. This was the teaching back in the 1950’s when I was growing up, and it has not changed.

Call your local pro-life coalition or go to their website. They have all of the local candidate’s information in detail. From who funds them to their voting record to their stands on policies, etc.

 

[Ender]

Another problem I am finding with this whole voting thing is that sometimes it is impossible to find out where a candidate stands on abortion.

If it is not possible to know a candidate’s stance on abortion then there is no concern about voting for him, but what is being discussed here is whether it is appropriate to vote for someone who is known to support abortion. The fact that hard cases may exist should not cloud the fact that in the most of the significant races the choices, on this issue, are quite clear.

If you are able to somehow find out, many times you will find that both candidates are pro-choice.

In such a case this issue has no effect on the choice, at least between the two of them. This is not all that complicated.

The Catholic Catechism says that we have a moral obligation to vote. I don’t think that the authors of the Catechism were stupid enough to think that all candidates we could possibly vote for would be morally perfect in all things.

The church doesn’t require perfection. She does, however, condemn evil and can reasonably expect us not to support it where it is overt.

The truth is that we are to use our own conscience, not someone else’s conscience. This was the teaching back in the 1950’s when I was growing up, and it has not changed.

This is only partially correct. We are surely required to follow our own conscience but that does not justify whatever choice we may happen to make. Choosing evil is not acceptable whether our conscience is clear or not.*1790 Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.
*1791 … In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
Ender

 

[marymary1975]

The only party that I could vote for is one based on Catholic Social Teaching. Link: Christian Democracy.

Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats have a consistent pro-live policy. As my wife says, the Democrats want to kill you before you’re born and the Republicans want to kill you after you’re born.

I would add to the non-negotiable items: denying health care to the ill, opposing a living wage to workers, and racism.

And as a personal aside, I would take down all Ten Commandments plaques at courthouses and replace them with the Sermon on the Mount.

I totally agree in this, specially with your wife’s statement

 

[NeedsMercy]

The list is the excuses that are given by many Catholics to justify their voting for pro-abortion candidates. Why would you expect a Church document to contain them? These are the excuses of those who are rejecting Church teaching.

If they’re something you made up, I can ignore them altogether.

 

[NeedsMercy]

Then your conscience would be malformed.

In your opinion.

 

[NeedsMercy]

The mere fact that our conscience chooses one action over another does not justify what we have done. If the act is wrong, the fact that we have done it with a clear conscience does not make it right, and while we cannot judge another person’s conscience we can surely judge his actions.

Ender

If we take the word “wrong” to mean “immoral”, then yes you are correct; however, the issue that the OP brought up was whether or not voting for a pro-choice candidate–for something other than his/her pro-choice stance–is immoral in the first place. That has not been established here (in this thread) or by the Church as a whole. And no you can’t judge a person by the mere fact that he/she votes Democratic (the action). You don’t know what is in their heart. Only God and the person know, as I mentioned previously.