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Ender
Guest
Perhaps, but it’s necessary to first clear away some of the misconceptions and false arguments in support of such a vote.
This is the kind of argument I’m referring to. If supporting pro-abortion candidates is wrong then it is not necessary to know why one does it. A person’s conscience does not exempt him from culpability, especially if he should know better.
“My conscience made me do it” is pretty much a non-argument. If it is immoral to vote for candidates who support abortion then our conscience does not justify our doing so; if it is not immoral to vote for such people then our conscience is not really involved. The point is that the morality of supporting people who support abortion is not determined by our individual consciences.
Ender
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NeedsMercy
Guest
Go ahead, list them, I’m listening.
But we have **not **established that it is “wrong” (which you are using to mean “immoral”)! We are not talking about having an abortion; we are talking about voting for a person who is pro-choice for reasons other than being pro-choice. I keep being forced to repeat myself: even the Church has not established in one place that doing so is a mortal sin.
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Milasol
Guest
A would think it would be very grave to be a conscious accomplice to murder. But that’s my own feeling. And I have a feeling that aiding in anyway the murder of one of his creatures would hurt God.
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Milasol
Guest
Here is a video from Tim Staples one of the founders of CA if I’m not mistaken “How to Vote Catholic”
It might help you.
youtube.com/watch?v=byQh3EIibxU
youtube.com/watch?v=byQh3EIibxU
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NeedsMercy
Guest
I am not an “accomplice to murder” and how dare you imply it! My conscience is clear.
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Milasol
Guest
I’m sorry if you felt I was accusing you. I simply stated that consciously voting for a pro-choice candidate would make one an accomplice to murder.
I never said you were an accomplice and I still stand by my statement. Consciously voting for a pro-choice candidate will make one an accomplice to murder.
Abortion is murder.
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NeedsMercy
Guest
You can’t unring the bell; but, whatever. As far as the youtube videos: they clearly say “We have to be careful here before we start binding people’s consciences as to who they are going to vote for, which we are not going to do on this broadcast." (19:48) Really, if they were so sure that voting for a pro-choice candidate for other than his/her pro-choice stance was a mortal sin, wouldn’t they have said so? Wouldn’t the CCC have said so? Wouldn’t EV have said so?
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Milasol
Guest
Did I ever ring the bell or you heard a bell in your conscious?
I repeat. I said that if one consciously votes for a pro-choice candidate one becomes an accomplice to murder.
I think you are trying to look for somehow a justification to vote for a pro-choice candidate. It is simple, a life born or unborn is not for us to decide what to do with it.
If one sees a man beating a woman to death across the street and one just stands there, then doesn’t make one peaceful or tolerant. It makes us an accomplice.
The same concept applies to abortion. If one sees a candidate that says he/she is pro-choice and we know will do nothing to save lives and will let the murder continue then that doesn’t make us peaceful but rather it makes us accomplices of murder.
The murdering is already happening. Say we are in the middle of the trenches in WWI and we see a group of children running. Do we follow the captain that tells us to bomb them or do we follow the captain that tells us to rescue them?
The video didn’t say that. The video is an hour long.
You argue about consciousness about the act. It is ok if one doesn’t know, but if one consciously knows then why do it? It is that simple. We control our wills. Nobody else does. We are constantly confronted with a choice to do good or bad. It never ceases to exist. Now if you are arguing that you don’t know whether abortion is good or bad then that’s another discussion.
Always vote pro-life! It is the most important issue. Nothing and absolutely nothing is as important as saving a human life.
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on_the_hill
Guest
Can you define “consciously?” Do you mean that if a person votes for a candidate that he is conscious/aware of being pro-choice, then that voter is an accomplice to murder? Or do you mean if one votes for a pro-choice candidate *because *the candidate is pro-choice then the voter is an accomplice to murder?
In other words, if a person were to vote for Mitt Romney, who is ostensibly pro-life, but then Mitt decides he’s pro-choice, then that voter is not guilty. If, however, a person votes for Barack Obama, knowing that Barack is pro-choice, that person is guilty. Is this what you’re implying?
I ask because I’m anti-choice, but I voted for Barack Obama. I also voted for George Bush and he took us adventuring into Iraq, which was decidedly not a Christian thing to do.
Mark121359
Well-known member
I look at it like this. As a practicing Catholic, and not just a catholic in name only, I find it absolutely impossible for me to ever vote for a party that sees to it that people like Nancy Keenan, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, and Cecile Richards, president of Planned Parenthood Federation of America are keynote speakers at the Democratic Convention, who play a ***huge ***role in the Democrat Party’s image, and their vision of America. The Stupid Party may very well be in fact, stupid…but they don’t go out of their way to promote the wholesale slaughter of the innocent. And most of them stand up for traditional marriage to boot. Now you can call me stupid, I’ve been called worse…but I’ll pinch my nose and vote Republican 7 days a week and twice on Sunday, before I’ll ever vote for those who promote the “culture of death.”
Peace, Mark
Amen to that, Blessed Mother Teresa!
Peace, Mark
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Seraphim73
Guest
It’s your individual responsibility as a Christian to care for those who can’t care for themselves, not to use the police power of government to force others to do it for you. Jesus told you to feed the poor. You can’t do good with someone else’s money unless you first take it away from them.
That being said I don’t accept your premise. Show me where unborn babies were dying because of lack of care. Assertion does not equal fact.
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Seraphim73
Guest
It has? Prove it and prove the reason is Obamacare.
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Seraphim73
Guest
If you vote for a politician who actively votes to support abortion I don’t see how you are not an accomplice in it regardless of your indignation.
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Milasol
Guest
Yes that’s what I’m implying. And Barack Obama has a record of infanticide. The media took care in hiding that. In fact his only 3 votes he did as a junior senator were to deny healthcare to babies born alive after a botched abortions. Then he lied and said that there were programs for them. The truth is that it was brought to the floor 3 times because there were no such programs. Planned Parenthood has a problem registering with a local hospital for emergencies and people believe that they have a program to save the life of a baby born from a mistake they made in the procedure of killing him/her?
If one votes for someone who deceived us then I would think that is not so much our fault but theirs. However, the democrat party has by their own self-admission claimed that they are the pro-choice party. If it was up to them we will still have partial birth abortion.
As to Iraq and Bush and Barrack Obama go. I think Obama not only kept us in Iraq and Afghanistan, increased drone attacks by 300%. Supported the Muslim Brotherhood in Libya, Egypt, Tunisia. The Muslim Brotherhood being responsible for the sponsoring of more than 50 sunni Islamic terrorist organizations spread across the world from Abu Sayef to Al-Shabab to Boko Hara to Al-furqan to Al-Qaida. I used to contract for the State Department if Americans knew the level of infiltration and aid that is given to the Muslim Brotherhood they will be gnashing their teeth in fear.
So Obama definitely doesn’t get a carte blanche. Neither does Bush. However, I think Bush was stupid but Obama has a very sinister agenda.
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Milasol
Guest
You do know that Obama voted 3 times to deny any type of healthcare to babies born from botched abortions, right?
You do know that to have a second abortionist in the room won’t affect whatsoever the fact that abortions are being made.
Obama, the deceitful president he is, did that to give persons like you an excuse to continue to justify the slaughter.
You also know that Obama is a huge proponent of Planned Parenthood, right? And that we Catholics have more than 100 lawsuits against the HHS mandate on moral grounds?
So no, Obama has done absolutely nothing in regards to abortion. Nothing but to try and appear that he cares yet funding the killing machinery. i.e. PP
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NeedsMercy
Guest
Not discussing this any further.
Even the Church does not say this. If it does, show me where.
Yes, you are correct that we do not have the authority to end a life. But a person who votes for a pro-choice candidate FOR SOMETHING OTHER THAN HIS/HER PRO-CHOICE STANCE is not taking on this authority. I have no reason to justify my own voting practices, any more than you should justify to me why you (probably) voted for the Republican candidate in the last presidential election, who, btw, was not pro-life.
This is not a valid comparison. First, whether we like it or not, abortion is legal. Assault is not. Even if there were a “Good Samaritan” law in the situation you are using, the person who failed to assist is not charged with the assault itself. Apples and oranges.
As I pointed out, the same concept does not apply to abortion. Don’t know where the “peaceful” thing fits in.
To compare the current state of affairs concerning abortion in the US to the First World War is doing a disservice to the fallen dead of that war. And this comparison is invalid also anyway.
The video DID say that word for word. I even gave you the time.
I’m not arguing about consciousness in voting. I have always been conscious in the voting booth.
Why vote for a pro-choice candidate? Your conscience tells you that abortion is the only issue to consider when voting. That’s fine; there’s no problem with that at all. I can’t tell you how to vote. Likewise, you can’t tell me how to vote. My conscience will not allow me to be a one issue voter. There are 317 million people living in this country. I cannot and will not totally disregard their welfare. If I think that a pro-choice candidate will better serve the citizens who are alive, I will vote for him/her. It’s that simple.
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NeedsMercy
Guest
I have given my reasons for believing that a person voting for a pro-choice candidate FOR REASONS OTHER THAN HIS/HER PRO-CHOICE STANCE would not commit a mortal sin. If you think that this person is a murderer, fine. That would be your opinion, and your opinion only. And you are right: one should not be indignant when falsely accused. Most of the saints tell us that.
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Milasol
Guest
Not discussing this any further.
And you stated your conscious was clear. Apparently not. For I merely stated that to vote pro-choice is to be an accomplice to murder. Never once said you. So there goes so much for conscious.
NeedsMercy;12043341:
I vote pro-life. If there are no candidate who are pro-life I don’t vote. I do research on this. I work for a birthright center. We do research on candidate. And I did vote for Romney, he said he was pro-life and he publicly stated he was wrong in ever being pro-choice. As supposed to voting for someone who voted for infanticide 3 times. The very few votes he ever did as a junior senator in Illinois. And also lied about it and said that there were programs for the babies born alive after botched abortion.
It’s a perfectly valid example. And the fact that abortion is legal, which is actually not, it rather is a private matter as stated in the constitution. Doesn’t make it right. Nazis did everything they did legally. You respond to God or to man?
Peaceful fits in when we let violence continue. And wow what kind of violence we are talking about. 55 million not enough?
What? It is a perfect comparison. It couldn’t be more perfect. And is not doing a disservice to anyone.
I really think you should listen to it before you comment.
You go ahead and vote for them. You don’t have to explain to me. I do however believe you will have to explain it to the very creator of life.I’m not arguing about consciousness in voting. I have always been conscious in the voting booth.
Why vote for a pro-choice candidate? Your conscience tells you that abortion is the only issue to consider when voting. That’s fine; there’s no problem with that at all. I can’t tell you how to vote. Likewise, you can’t tell me how to vote. My conscience will not allow me to be a one issue voter. There are 317 million people living in this country. I cannot and will not totally disregard their welfare. If I think that a pro-choice candidate will better serve the citizens who are alive, I will vote for him/her. It’s that simple.
Your problem is that you will try and twist anything, any reality, believe the perpetual lie, in order to vote democrat including abortion. Democrats have become pathological liars, the abortion on demand party, destroyers of families, big business (most fortune 500 are democrat donors) party, Muslim brotherhood lovers, and the deceivers of the poor making them believe that they care about them.
Good day and I hope one day you really and truly care for the unborn at any cost.
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Milasol
Guest
Cathecism of the Catholic Church
PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST
SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
CHAPTER TWO
Abortion
2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76
2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80
"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights."81
2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.
Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82
2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."83
"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."84
"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"85 which are unique and unrepeatable.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm
It seems pretty clear to me how determined the Church is about the issue of abortion.
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