- Status
D
Donkey
Guest
The road has been long and destructive. Sadly, this bankruptcy route will continue another 1-6 years but I think troubling times will exist until a generation of priests and bishops retire. The problem of sex abuse is horrific but a greater problem exists…lack of obedience to Truth.
Praying for Bishop Matano and all those involved.
Praying for Bishop Matano and all those involved.
Last edited:
M
MamaJewel
Guest
“The victims will become creditors of the bankruptcy estate created by the Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing.”
There is no justice.
There is no justice.
C
CilladeRoma
Guest
What do you mean? This will help to ensure that all victims can be compensated. This is a restructuring of debt, not a cancellation of it.
S
stpurl
Guest
Actually, if (listen to the video of Bishop Matano explaining this) the diocese had NOT filed for bankruptcy, since they have debts from other ‘normal sources’ as well as assets, by the time the first wave of litigants had been paid from the dioceses’ assets, the diocese would be broke anyway and there would be no money for any remaining litigants. This way, there WILL be money for all. The bishop is doing the honorable thing, and since he only came on board a few years ago, is doing the honorable thing for the mess which was the fault of others before him.
M
Maxirad
Guest
I visited the Rochester area back in 2006. My dad’s sister lives there. I even attended Mass in the area.
Last edited:
P
pnewton
Guest
Chapter 11 is part of the civil code to provide justice. Justice applies to all though, including in this case, the diocese, who has the right to do this. If criminal justice is what is desired, then that is not done through the civil process, and the Church is not the criminal. The person who committed the crimes is the one to whom criminal justice is directed, personally, as it should be.
I would recommend anyone wanting justice go to the local law enforcement agency and report the crime. It does pay as much, but you have the best chance of the guilty party being properly punished.
Last edited:
M
MamaJewel
Guest
Pay the victims first. Then claim bankruptcy against the remaining creditors.
Bankruptcy reduces the amounts a debtor has to pay its creditors.
Throughout the country, it’s not uncommon for a diocese to continue to support priests that have been removed from ministry due to child sexual assault by supplying those priests with monthly support payments.
I hope the federal judge sets the largest chunk of debt repayment to those victims.
There is no justice.
P
pnewton
Guest
Absolutely not. I totally disagree. That would make running the diocese near impossible. Victims of sexual abuse are not the only victims in this fallen world.
Then by golly maybe the victims of crime should go to the police a little quicker, if they want complete justice. Action has consequences, as does inaction, including subsequent people who were victimized because of the silence of the earlier ones.
Last edited:
S
stpurl
Guest
So only money is justice?
Wow.
Did you even listen to Bishop Matano?
Tell you what. When you can show us that you are a federal or state judge, or the bishop of a Catholic diocese, or a financial expert in bankruptcy, or a psychiatrist who specializes in abuse cases, then you can tell us from the point of view of the experts who all got together to make the above decision, that ‘there is no justice’. . .
Until then, you’re just slamming people based on your feelings. Like unless everybody demands that things get done YOUR way that nobody cares about the abuse victims. Like everybody in the Catholic world is out to keep victims from being compensated.
It’s tiresome.
Wow.
Did you even listen to Bishop Matano?
Tell you what. When you can show us that you are a federal or state judge, or the bishop of a Catholic diocese, or a financial expert in bankruptcy, or a psychiatrist who specializes in abuse cases, then you can tell us from the point of view of the experts who all got together to make the above decision, that ‘there is no justice’. . .
Until then, you’re just slamming people based on your feelings. Like unless everybody demands that things get done YOUR way that nobody cares about the abuse victims. Like everybody in the Catholic world is out to keep victims from being compensated.
It’s tiresome.
M
MamaJewel
Guest
I completely understand the difference between civil and criminal justice.
Please don’t espouse the rights of the Church in civil court when justice was obstructed by covering up crimes until the statute of limitations passed. Church leaders are lucky they haven’t been jailed for failing to contact authorities about crimes committed against children by priests and for moving these same priests to other parish communities where they could hurt others.
The Church is responsible for the crimes its priests committed. A hospital is responsible for crimes its representatives commit. Its called the Doctrine of Corporate Liability or Doctrine of Corporate Negligence (Respondent Superior). These victims should have been given restitution when the church was first notified of the circumstances.
Is this how Jesus treats people? I know this was not what he meant when he said “Let the children come to me”.
You should have gone to the authorities sooner. So sweet.
Can you believe it…but sometimes a child doesn’t even know they have been a victim of a crime until they are full-blown adults.
What made the stories of these victims so heinous is that children notified their parents, teachers, and other adults in their life, only to be minimized and denied in too many cases.
Other parents, from the good of their hearts, did not want to cause more scandal for the church. They went to their Bishop, discussed what happened, and were reassured by their beloved shepherd this hadn’t happened to others in the church by father, that action would be taken and that Father would not be able to hurt others again. These same parents and victims found out years later when the scandal hit the press and internet that they were blatantly lied to by Church authorities.
Not only had their priest hurt others in the parish, but he was often moved about to other communities to minister, where he ultimately hurt more children.
Some people did go to law enforcement, only to be sent back to their bishop. Like the Altoona diocese victims.
P
pnewton
Guest
I have no idea what that has to do with this topic.
That would indeed be horrible, not that we should shutter the schools or police stations over criminal negligence. Rather, as in all things, justice is served when the guilty pay, including the guilty priests and bishops, along with police, teachers and parents. However, if you go after deep pockets civilly, I see no complaint of injustice just because the pockets aren’t deep enough.
M
MamaJewel
Guest
Money = access to vital counseling services that can help bring the miracle of healing.
Money = access to housing, food, transportation, healthcare, etc when a victim of child sexual assault is so overwhelmed by the crime that he or she can’t function as an adult… like being able to go out to work and do normal, healthy adult activities.
Tell you what. I am a survivor of CSA and I work with professionals and victims in my community. I can tell you this much, when it comes to providing adequate services for current children who have been assaulted, resources are scarce.
When an individual is an adult reliving the CSA trauma, resources for help at local crises centers are even scarcer. For adult male CSA survivors, resources are practically non-existent in many places.
So don’t tell me I’m basing the reality of the situation on feelings. I have boots on the ground and actively participate and fund-raise to improve conditions for sexual assault and domestic violence victims, especially victims who are children.
When a diocese claims bankruptcy it looks like it is trying to further attempt to minimize childhood victims of church representatives. Just saying…
The Church was broke when it came to the States. It can recover financially and create credibility toward victims.
Don’t try to turn this scandal around and blame me for expecting justice from an institution that claims Godly moral superiority. The hierarchy knew better, but failed the people.
In many places, the Church refused to compensate victims. Bishops that were in power in the past worked with priests in their diocese to assist in the cover-up and avoid legal action by victims until the statute of limitations passed. Some of those very priests who assisted were elevated into positions of leadership as Bishops today.
Please research the topic. Go online and look at the news, the attorneys, the victims’ stories, and the priests/ diocese that were involved. You will see that the method of operation was to maintain impunity by the Church regarding CSA crimes.
Last edited:
M
MamaJewel
Guest
This:
Because the adults who later came forward were child-victims. Your statement appears to be blaming a child who was a victim of a horrible crime. (I don’t believe that you actually are blaming.)
Trust me, I have read many accounts online of victims who hated themselves even more for not doing more against the priest and church. They forget that they where a child when it happened. They blame their child-self from an adult-self perspective.
That’s why I responded with:
When it comes to children, we must be very careful to not blame the victim. An innocent child has no power or control over adult actions. We can’t expect an innocent child to come forward for many reasons…ignorance, confusion, threats against them/family, fear of wrong-doing, fear of violence against the perpetrator, trust in the perpetrator, etc
I would think that a teacher or law enforcement officer’s refusal to properly address child abuse would be a criminal act in and of itself, in which those individuals should be jailed. I doubt that schools or police departments would be shuttered because of such civil lawsuits. However, if a particular school or law enforcement department is that corrupt, it should be closed for the safety of the people it is supposed to serve.
The church isn’t going to close because of CSA lawsuits. It might have to sell some assets and tighten its belts, but its not going to cease existing. That’s a tactic to scare the laity. If the laity believe they will have to pay toward victim restitution, they won’t tithe. This fact scares church authorities and laity alike.
The laity must come forward and demand fair restitution for the victims and be willing to pay for it. Overcome the fear of blood money. Or maybe it’s that we still don’t trust the church to do the right thing. Or maybe we feel like we will exonerate church leaders if we pay. It seems like refusing tithe money toward restitution is the mechanism for the laity to punish church leaders over the scandal.
Let the church pay fair restitution.
Sack cloth and ashes for us, if need be.
Child sexual assault (CSA) is one of the most heinous crimes against humanity.
CSA makes living life near impossible. And that’s a dysfunctional, chaotic life. Living a healthy life after CSA is nothing short of a miracle.
S
stpurl
Guest
I’ll be more interested in seeing everybody else come forward demanding fair treatment for victims, millions abused by parents, family, trusted friends. . .pastors from other churches. . .schools. . .scouting. . .etc.
I’ll be more interested in seeing fair treatment for the Church.
When do you hear the FACTS that up until the early 1990s, the American Medical Association stated that pedophilia was CURABLE and TREATABLE?
The facts that worldwide, not simply in 'the Catholic Church" the standard treatment in a case where a person was caught abusing a minor was for the whole thing to be hushed up because it was thought in the best interest of THE VICTIM.
The facts that worldwide, not simply in the Catholic Church, institutions like the Church, other Christian churches, schools, and individual people -i.e. parents–were told by the recognized medical and legal experts that in order for the victim to recover best, the abuse should be ‘covered up’ so that the victim would not bear the onus of knowing that ‘everybody knew about the abuse’.
The churches, schools, and the individuals were told that it was in the best interest of the abuser to be ‘treated and cured’ and that part of the cure would involve the abuser ‘making a fresh start’. Remember, prior to say 1990 the AMA said pedophilia COULD BE TREATED AND CURED.
So prior to say 1990, all those bishops who supposedly ‘covered up’ and ‘moved priests around’ while knowing they had been guilty of abuse were doing this at the recommendation of the country’s leading medical and legal experts, who also advised the very same tactics and behavior to every other institution in the country as well, and had done so for decades, as the ‘standard treatment’ for such an action.
After 1990, it’s a different story. The AMA started to change their tune .IOW, they backtracked fast and started going for the jugular to cover their own butts. Look at the track record over the last 30-40 years with the vaunted AMA: First coffee was bad for you, then it was good, now it’s good except recently it’s bad again. First putting your babies to sleep on their backs was good, then it was bad, no, side, then oh no, put them on their tummies, everything else causes SIDS. Look at eggs: Cholesterol bad, no it’s good, no it’s bad. Red meat bad. . .white meat good. . .no it’s bad, salmonella. . . Hype loudly enough one way and trust that people will forget you said differently.) . .
Why not go after those who were complicit in the ‘abuse scandal’ --the medical and legal experts?
If today’s bishops decided to ignore the medical experts who today insist that all children need vaccinations, and state that parents who cited a religious exemption should be able to have that honored, can you IMAGINE the scream? "Church is ANTI-SCIENCE! The Church ignores the experts!!’
Well guess what? The Church listened to the experts in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, and because of that, let pedophiles go off ‘cured’ and they abused again because the new place ‘wasn’t told.’
Whose responsibility is it for the ‘coverups?’ Let the AMA and the legal personnel come forward and pay THEIR share. You want justice? Let’s have real justice.
I’ll be more interested in seeing fair treatment for the Church.
When do you hear the FACTS that up until the early 1990s, the American Medical Association stated that pedophilia was CURABLE and TREATABLE?
The facts that worldwide, not simply in 'the Catholic Church" the standard treatment in a case where a person was caught abusing a minor was for the whole thing to be hushed up because it was thought in the best interest of THE VICTIM.
The facts that worldwide, not simply in the Catholic Church, institutions like the Church, other Christian churches, schools, and individual people -i.e. parents–were told by the recognized medical and legal experts that in order for the victim to recover best, the abuse should be ‘covered up’ so that the victim would not bear the onus of knowing that ‘everybody knew about the abuse’.
The churches, schools, and the individuals were told that it was in the best interest of the abuser to be ‘treated and cured’ and that part of the cure would involve the abuser ‘making a fresh start’. Remember, prior to say 1990 the AMA said pedophilia COULD BE TREATED AND CURED.
So prior to say 1990, all those bishops who supposedly ‘covered up’ and ‘moved priests around’ while knowing they had been guilty of abuse were doing this at the recommendation of the country’s leading medical and legal experts, who also advised the very same tactics and behavior to every other institution in the country as well, and had done so for decades, as the ‘standard treatment’ for such an action.
After 1990, it’s a different story. The AMA started to change their tune .IOW, they backtracked fast and started going for the jugular to cover their own butts. Look at the track record over the last 30-40 years with the vaunted AMA: First coffee was bad for you, then it was good, now it’s good except recently it’s bad again. First putting your babies to sleep on their backs was good, then it was bad, no, side, then oh no, put them on their tummies, everything else causes SIDS. Look at eggs: Cholesterol bad, no it’s good, no it’s bad. Red meat bad. . .white meat good. . .no it’s bad, salmonella. . . Hype loudly enough one way and trust that people will forget you said differently.) . .
Why not go after those who were complicit in the ‘abuse scandal’ --the medical and legal experts?
If today’s bishops decided to ignore the medical experts who today insist that all children need vaccinations, and state that parents who cited a religious exemption should be able to have that honored, can you IMAGINE the scream? "Church is ANTI-SCIENCE! The Church ignores the experts!!’
Well guess what? The Church listened to the experts in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, and because of that, let pedophiles go off ‘cured’ and they abused again because the new place ‘wasn’t told.’
Whose responsibility is it for the ‘coverups?’ Let the AMA and the legal personnel come forward and pay THEIR share. You want justice? Let’s have real justice.
M
MamaJewel
Guest
Why? The church has been treated more than fairly. We’re lucky some of our bishops habven’t been hauled away in handcuffs.
My diocese had a reputation for keeping victims silent through gag orders.
In addition, my diocese actively covered up abuse at times by moving priests around or denying abuse.
With one abusive priest in particular, the diocese defrocked him for child sexual assault, paid for him to get an education and state certification to be a mental health counselor. Part of the licensing process required the diocese to state whether or not its former employee had performed any actions that would disqualify him from being a counselor, working with the public, or from working with vulnerable people. The diocese lied and said he was a man of outstanding moral character.
The diocese was investigated for lying to the state when the former priest (now counselor with the church’s help) sexually assaulted a child while working for the state as a counselor.
The ideal situation would be that those who are guilty of committing or covering up such a heinous crime are exposed and face justice. But to say that the church isn’t being treated fairly and that others have to be treated the same in order for the church to be held responsible is not right.
The church, of all institutions, needs to take responsibility and help the victims of child sexual assault at the hands of church reps receive justice. Anything less is evil.
If they knowingly put children in harms way then yes, they should be held responsible. But like priests in confession, legal eagles will claim client -counsel confidentiality.
Now that we’ve pointed fingers at doctors and lawyers, let’s go back to the cover-up. We have this scandal in the church today because some very diligent attorneys for the victims have been in legal practice for several decades. These attorneys had the opportunity to depose diocesan leaders and everyday priests 20 to 30+ years ago. A handful of those everyday priests back then are now in positions of power and the victims’ attorneys are now able to use past depositions to show that some of today’s leaders were quite aware of certain abuse cases back then.
The scandal has come home to roost and it’s not going away anytime soon due to some really courageous lawyers who stood up against lawyers paid for by the church to protect abusive priests.
How can you be ok with the RCC paying for lawyers to work as attorneys for the abusive priests that hurt children? The church didn’t pay for lawyers for the victims, and that should be very telling, especially when it’s the people of the church paying tithes so the church can operate.
1
1Lord1Faith
Guest
I don’t buy that argument for the simple fact that the coverups and moving around of priests is still happening.
It’s fairly clear to me that bishops still have a protectionist mindset when it comes to their own. And it’s also fairly clear to me that that’s not going to change anytime soon.
Last edited:
P
pnewton
Guest
Well, I do not equate the courts with Jesus, so I still do not know what allowing children to come to Jesus has to do with the topic. You are right about one thing, I would never blame any victim, especially a child, for the crime committed against him or her, nor would I judge that the person has some moral fault for not coming forward sooner. That simply may not be psychologically possible. However, inaction does allow for perpetrators to continue. It also makes justice less possible with time. This is not blaming. This is simple consequence.
I do believe in fair restitution for victims, even if I do not agree what is fair. New York has lifted statute of limitations for this one crime completely. I read one case where a woman is going back to an incident 40 years ago. Yes, there would be justice is she could have that generation from that time pay. However, when you ask for payment two generations later, then I do not consider that fair restitution, and those of the current generation are not victims of their predecessors.
Once laws are changed so outlandishly ex post facto decades later, talk of justice is absurd.
I heard it in the eighties.
Last edited:
D
Donkey
Guest
I agree with all of the above but looking for a positive, I hope this measure will help put an end to the terrible sex abuse side show. The result will likely be a smaller purified Church. Sadly, too many from the current generation in the Church will be disgruntled and look elsewhere for God. This was already happening and continues. At this point, Bishop Matano has taken the best possible action to insure all supposed victims receive equitable restitutions.
Last edited:
H
HumbleIOughtToBe
Guest
Sad thought: I clicked on this wondering which Rochester it was. I have been to a Diocese affiliated with a Rochester for more than 3 years.
- Status