Catholic Disillusioned by Confederate Flag Defense by Pro-Life Catholic Radio Folks

[Latias]

I honestly don’t know why you’d think pro life people don’t care when Black people are killed by police or in a church. I think police brutality is a serious issue. At the same time I don’t think it is necessarily racist. People of all races face police brutality and are killed by police.

Yes, all police officers are not bad. There are police officers who support Colin Kaepernick.

As for symbols who gets to define them? Who gets to decide what is representive? I feel extremely confident people who fly a Confederate flag by and large don’t kill Black people. It is true that some people who do use them as symbols of intimidation. It is true some do harm or kill Black people. This is of course terrible. But when the KKK was at its peak in the US they had a march on Washington, DC. The flag they carried was the US flag. You can find pictures of it. They still march with that flag, even if they carry Confederate flags. You can find pictures of the US flag from Charlottesville. Does that mean the US flag is a symbol of hate?

The OP almost certainly believes that the Confederate flag is emblematic of a system of racial oppression that effectively dehumanizes people of color, supports a certain type of social order where whites are superior, and fosters bigoted attitudes. That is true when South Carolina seceded to preserve the institution of slavery (not to affirm “state’s rights”) and that is true now. Again, this is about the Confederate flag, and it has little to do with the fact that the Union’s cause was initially not that magnanimous, but became a war about the liberation of the slaves after the Union victory at Antietam.

Historian Barbara Fields argued (Slaves No More) that while the war began for union and economic conquest, it developed a new, revolutionary character after the Battle of Antietam and the subsequent Emancipation Proclamation. By the end of the war, 180,000 black troops, nearly 20% of the Army of the Potomac, were serving in frontline positions. Black troops were the first to enter Richmond. Confederate troops increasingly committed war crimes against black troops at Petersburg and Fort Pillow, the latter committed by Nathan Bedford Forrest, eulogized by a park and statue in Memphis.

theredphoenixapl.org/2017/08/17/we-must-finish-what-they-started-remove-all-confederate-statues-now/

There is a trend current in the country today to judge people of the past with a modern 21st century mentality. Not only is it not right to do so, it is unfair to those of the past. While an upright man like Robert E. Lee is being condemned today through ignorance, people like Margaret Sander, Che Guevara, and even people like Fidel Castro and Vladimir Lenin himself are heralded, at least in hushed tones, by many on the left. An argument for both sides of the Confederate flag can be made but not the Nazi flag. It is not fair to try and compare the two.

Why bring up Vladimir Lenin, Fidel Castro, and Che Guevara? I doubt you don’t even know what those people really did. Che Guevara and Castro only executed those who were convicted of committing crimes against humanity for Batista. There is no other sound evidence otherwise.

Why would you call General Lee an upright man?

The myth of Lee goes something like this: He was a brilliant strategist and devoted Christian man who abhorred slavery and labored tirelessly after the war to bring the country back together.

There is little truth in this. Lee was a devout Christian, and historians regard him as an accomplished tactician. But despite his ability to win individual battles, his decision to fight a conventional war against the more densely populated and industrialized North is considered by many historians to have been a fatal strategic error.
…
Lee was a slaveowner—his own views on slavery were explicated in an 1856 letter that it often misquoted to give the impression that Lee was some kind of an abolitionist. In the letter, he describes slavery as “a moral & political evil,” but goes on to explain that:

I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild & melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy.

The argument here is that slavery is bad for white people, good for black people, and most importantly, it is better than abolitionism; emancipation must wait for divine intervention. That black people might not want to be slaves does not enter into the equation; their opinion on the subject of their own bondage is not even an afterthought to Lee.

theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/#article-comments

That’s what Lee believed in.

During his invasion of Pennsylvania, Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia enslaved free blacks and brought them back to the South as property. Pryor writes that “evidence links virtually every infantry and cavalry unit in Lee’s army” with the abduction of free black Americans, “with the activity under the supervision of senior officers.”

That’s how Lee’s soldiers treated blacks.

 

[DebChris]

This is an excellent point. The klan also carried the Christian cross. Does that now make the cross a symbol of hate that should be eradicated?

Catholics as well as Jews were included in the groups that the Klan harassed.

OP, in the past over other issues I have been disillusioned by things Catholics have said and done. But we can’t allow it to deter us from doing God’s work. Men will offend us and hurt us but it is ultimately the devil that is behind division, he is our real enemy. It is the forces of evil that want us to be wounded and feel victimized. You are a beloved child of God, all you can do is continue to know God, love Him, and serve Him. God will sort out the rest.

exhihilo mentioned when the KKK was at its peak in the 1920’s. I remember reading that it had its greatest membership in Indiana, but I didn’t find that fact in my quick Google search. What I did find was that it temporarily disbanded in 1944 and was publicly condemned by President Lyndon Johnson in 1965.

It is easy to continue the divisions between North and South. Hatred for the South had been so ingrained in my mother-in-law that she was taught to spurn even thinking of wearing “rebel grey.”

I lived in CA in the late 1970’s as the skinheads made Stockton their headquarters. The Neo-Nazi’s joined forces with what was left of the KKK.

Living in the Middle East, I naturally cringed the first time I saw a swastika. It was not on a flag as we Westerners usually see the Nazi symbol. There were many Hindus and to them it does not have the same hate filled message as it does in the West. I learned to relax as I saw the symbol displayed.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I am Irish. If I had it in my heart, I could choose to view the Britsh Union Jack with hatred and contempt.

Same for me. I prefer to associate the British Union Jack these days with a number of good friends I have who happen to be English and have never shown the least bit of prejudice against me or any other Irish Catholic.

I’d also add, I just got back from a visit to my father’s hometown. Dad grew up in a Midwestern state. It had an active KKK chapter when he was growing up. The KKK in that state was NOT directing its activities against African-Americans or Jewish people, as there were almost none in that state. It WAS directing its activities against the Catholics living there, of which there were a sizable number, many Irish, some other nationalities.

Dad was raised a Protestant and attended Baptist and Methodist churches. His father was a Klan member. His father died before Dad met my Catholic mother and decided to convert and marry her. Over time, Dad became a very strong Catholic and said the rosary so much that it is engraved on his tombstone. Grandma, Dad’s mom, did not have any issue with him marrying a Catholic (I suspect she had a number of issues with her late husband’s behavior when he was alive), but several of his other older relatives were aghast.

So obviously there is no way I am going to support that type of organization, or any other hate group. I was raised to be accepting of other race and ethnic groups. More than once I saw my mother go out of her way to be kind to someone who was snubbed by the neighbors - in one case the couple were being snubbed because they were Mexican and had happened to rent on our predominantly white block.

Flags, apart from ones flying on the state house that I already discussed, are largely irrelevant to all this, but I’ve found that people do not wish to accept or even hear my take on it. They simply don’t care.

 

[Tim_D]

Why bring up Vladimir Lenin, Fidel Castro, and Che Guevara? I doubt you don’t even know what those people really did. Che Guevara and Castro only executed those who were convicted of committing crimes against humanity for Batista. There is no other sound evidence otherwise.

Thank you for proving my point. Castro killed more people per capita than Joseph Stalin. In most people’s book, that isn’t a good thing.

 

[Latias]

Thank you for proving my point. Castro killed more people per capita than Joseph Stalin. In most people’s book, that isn’t a good thing.

Do you have any evidence for that… or it is no corpus delicti.

Che Guevara wasn’t a murderer because killing adversaries in warfare isn’t murder. Che Guevara presided over revolutionary tribunals which sentenced a few hundred people to death, and that wasn’t murder, but revolutionary justice. There’s never been a bloodless revolution, and the American Revolution wasn’t bloodless either.

From a poster here:
bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-25/what-france-knows-about-robert-e-lee

I actually suggest Claire to look up Carol Swain in concurrence with another poster.

Here is one for her opeds provided on the wikipedia page

More and more members of the PC crowd now acknowledge that Islam has absolutely nothing in common with Christianity, nor is it a worthy part of the brotherhood of man I long felt was characteristic of the Abrahamic religions. A younger, more naive version of myself once believed in a world where the people of the Book could and would get along because they all claimed Abraham as their father. No more!

tennessean.com/story/opinion/contributors/2015/01/15/charlie-hebdo-attacks-prove-critics-right-islam/21809599/

The OP may or may not agree with her attitude towards Islam. She would either like her or be repulsed by her.​

The bottom line is whether one can find sympathy among people of their faith. The OP has come to the obvious conclusion that there aren’t that many people sympathetic to progressive attitudes regarding race in the pro-life movement. She should probably associate with more progressive Catholics if she could find them.

Some posters suggested that one should ignore the unpalatable associates of pro-lifers, such as their attachment to the Union Jack, and focus on mutual interests as opposed to past grievances. But again, it seems that the grievances are too strong for the OP to dismiss, and she does not seem to receive any sympathy among those in the pro-life movement.** I will make an important step in not only acknowledging that she has grievances, but that she has legitimate grievances that reflect historical and contemporary alienation and prejudice against blacks.** The cause of justice should rectify and remedy these injustices. She cannot abandon the honor and dignity of her comrades while acceding to their mistreatment through complicity.

In short, this is not a trivial thing for her.

---

In the end, it comes down to whether one believes that the Catholic Church hierarchy is conveying fundamental truths about faith and morals to the world.Is the Catholic Church truly the Rock of Peter that is doing God’s will and presenting the magnanimous person of Christ to the world? Does one believe in the efficacy of the sacraments to bestow grace on individuals and the Real Presence? Does one participate in the sacramental life and prayer?

Could one believe in those things while being alienated from other Catholics? Does one need some form of consolation (such as empathy) in order to believe?

 

[Claire091166]

:hug3:

Oh my dear sister, my heart breaks for these injustices!

I stopped listening to Catholic radio for the same reasons – that so many of the show hosts and guests were grasping at a single needle of virtue in a mountainous haystack of vice.

My new car came with a Sirius satellite connection, and we found The Catholic Channel – Love it! The show hosts are devout Catholics. But they somehow seem more real, more in touch with real people and real lives. They also seem more aware that symbols have a societal meaning beyond what each and every individual claims is their personal meaning.

Even my 13-year-old son likes the shows. There’s so much joy and laughter in the shows!

Meanwhile, let’s pray for these people who are the public face of Catholicism.

God bless you!

Thanks to you and a few others for your understanding.
Yes, the word I sought for a few of the Confederate Flag Catholics was “unreal”.

As one commenter said, there is no separating the issues. I don’t believe that one can be prolife, yet still support the displaying of a flag that causes so much pain to your fellow brothers and sisters. Even if David Duke were against the killing of innocent babies in the womb, I could never in good conscience vote for him, because I would not consider him prolife. As someone else said, he would be pro birth.

Many have attempted to rationalize the display with historical explanations and such, but the fact is that the flag causes pain to others both now and in the past because of what it stands for. I have no problem if someone had the flag on their private property, but it does not have a place in public buildings etc.

I continue to be staunchly prolife and I pray daily for the Catholic Radio folks, but right now, I cannot see myself listening to Catholic Radio ever again. One never knows though.

I also challenge all those who support the display of the flag in public places to seriously think and pray about their position.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

With respect to Castro, the respected historian R.J. Rummel has published, based on his research, that the Castro regime likely murdered between 77,000 and 141,000 innocent people. He was a mass murderer, period, no justification for it.

Furthermore, upwards of 77,000 additional people died trying to flee his regime.

You pretty much blow your credibility the minute you start defending someone like Castro.

 

[Claire091166]

Do you have any evidence for that… or it is no corpus delicti.

From a poster here:
bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-25/what-france-knows-about-robert-e-lee

I actually suggest Claire to look up Carol Swain in concurrence with another poster.

Here is one for her opeds provided on the wikipedia page

tennessean.com/story/opinion/contributors/2015/01/15/charlie-hebdo-attacks-prove-critics-right-islam/21809599/

The OP may or may not agree with her attitude towards Islam. She would either like her or be repulsed by her.​

The bottom line is whether one can find sympathy among people of their faith. The OP has come to the obvious conclusion that there aren’t that many people sympathetic to progressive attitudes regarding race in the pro-life movement. She should probably associate with more progressive Catholics if she could find them.

Some posters suggested that one should ignore the unpalatable associates of pro-lifers, such as their attachment to the Union Jack, and focus on mutual interests as opposed to past grievances. But again, it seems that the grievances are too strong for the OP to dismiss, and she does not seem to receive any sympathy among those in the pro-life movement.** I will make an important step in not only acknowledging that she has grievances, but that she has legitimate grievances that reflect historical and contemporary alienation and prejudice against blacks.** The cause of justice should rectify and remedy these injustices. She cannot abandon the honor and dignity of her comrades while acceding to their mistreatment through complicity.

In short, this is not a trivial thing for her.

---

In the end, it comes down to whether one believes that the Catholic Church hierarchy is conveying fundamental truths about faith and morals to the world.Is the Catholic Church truly the Rock of Peter that is doing God’s will and presenting the magnanimous person of Christ to the world? Does one believe in the efficacy of the sacraments to bestow grace on individuals and the Real Presence? Does one participate in the sacramental life and prayer?

Could one believe in those things while being alienated from other Catholics? Does one need some form of consolation (such as empathy) in order to believe?/QUOTE

Very interesting post, but I do not necessarily seek “progressive Catholics”. I seek orthodox, joyful, sane and real Catholics with a well balanced worldview and have typically found them amongst the Dominicans, my fellow Opus Dei Co-operators and a host of others.

Therefore, not all Catholics believe the same way as those I mentioned in the original post.

Finally, as a revert to the faith, there is absolutely nothing that can make me leave the Catholic Church. I also believe in the power of being a good witness. If I wanted more black folks in the prolife movement, there is no way I would be able to “convert” them if I said, yes, I hate that all your babies are being killed, but I strongly support the Confederate Flag.

 

[NonTimendum]

None of us here can imagine the kind of hardship faced by hundreds of thousands of young American men under that flag. Nor can anyone here doubt their courage and valor.

It deserves to be honored. You feel a certain way about it, and that is your right, but others feel differently and they have good reasons.

 

[Rhubarb]

If you’ll accept some advice from an agnostic…

I listen to IHRN all the time out here in Sacramento. Pretty sure we get the same programming. Patrick Madrid is a charismatic and well-read thinker and I usually think he’s pretty fair about allowing all sides to have a fair say on his shows. But he is an American Catholic. And I find that it’s really really hard for a lot of American Catholics to disentangle their faith from their patriotism and politics. You’ll see it here on these forums, too. The way some people talk you’d think that Christ was a registered Republican and was wrapped in the Star Spangled Banner before being placed in the tomb.

Remember that your faith is not national. It’s universal. Don’t let crummy people spoil what could be a very rich spiritual life. And if things get too depressing, look to Pope Francis. His voice should be heard above any pundit or commentator.

 

[DebChris]

None of us here can imagine the kind of hardship faced by hundreds of thousands of young American men under that flag. Nor can anyone here doubt their courage and valor.

It deserves to be honored. You feel a certain way about it, and that is your right, but others feel differently and they have good reasons.

For anybody who has an opportunity, I do recommend going to one of the Civil War cemeteries, especially the one in Vicksburg, MS. It is quite informative. As mentioned earlier, it not only commemorates fallen Confederate soldiers, but also Union soldiers. It shows the meager rations they lived on.
American soldiers wearing dog tags comes out of the Civil War because so many were buried in unmarked graves.
I attended eighth grade in NJ where I had a teacher from Georgia. I still remember the POW camp photos he brought to class. I know about Andersonville which set precedent for the Nuremberg trials.

The South in which I currently live is not the South of Jim Crow laws. I did return to a different city on my return from the Middle East. The nearby city where I did live has a Confederate hospital that serves as a museum. The old Woolworth’s is a Civil Rights museum. The Battleground Park is from the Revolutionary War.
There are many Quakers living in this area. History tells us Quakers were major conductors of the Underground Railroad.

 

[Claire091166]

if you’ll accept some advice from an agnostic…

I listen to ihrn all the time out here in sacramento. Pretty sure we get the same programming. Patrick madrid is a charismatic and well-read thinker and i usually think he’s pretty fair about allowing all sides to have a fair say on his shows. But he is an american catholic. And i find that it’s really really hard for a lot of american catholics to disentangle their faith from their patriotism and politics. You’ll see it here on these forums, too. The way some people talk you’d think that christ was a registered republican and was wrapped in the star spangled banner before being placed in the tomb.

Remember that your faith is not national. It’s universal. Don’t let crummy people spoil what could be a very rich spiritual life. And if things get too depressing, look to pope francis. His voice should be heard above any pundit or commentator.

Amen, Amen!!!

 

[SyroMalankara]

I am a black woman who listens to a lot of Catholic Radio. In the past few years, I have been surprised by the vociferous defense of the Confederate Flag by my fellow passionate pro-life Catholics, so much so that it seems that the only folks defending the flag are the Catholics who listen to catholic radio and White Nationalists.

This has made me disillusioned with the pro-life movement to the extent that I did not attend last year’s Walk for Life West Coast. I have attended every walk since it’s inception and was even instrumental in inviting one of the past speakers.

Of course, I am still and always will be pro-life, but I just cannot bring myself to listen to Catholic Radio or participate in any pro-life events.

White folks often ask me about the dismal lack of African American participation in the pro-life movement (Alveda King, Pastor Hoy et al not withstanding) and I explain that the movement seems more “concerned” with black people in the womb, but not when they are attacked by police or killed in a church in the name of the Confederate Flag.

Nazi flags are not flown in public because of the hatred it signifies for the Jewish people. Why can’t the same courtesy of not displaying the confederate flag/monuments be extended to black people?

And no, black lives matter is not representative of black folks. I mention that because I know someone else will.

Agreed. American Catholics are majority of Hispanic descent, Catholicism in Africa, Caribbean, and South America has a strong black flavor.

Listening strictly to some American Catholic radio, one would think all American Catholics are white, middle to upper class, and supportive of all things Republican.

 

[DebChris]

If you’ll accept some advice from an agnostic…

I listen to IHRN all the time out here in Sacramento. Pretty sure we get the same programming. Patrick Madrid is a charismatic and well-read thinker and I usually think he’s pretty fair about allowing all sides to have a fair say on his shows. But he is an American Catholic. And I find that it’s really really hard for a lot of American Catholics to disentangle their faith from their patriotism and politics. You’ll see it here on these forums, too. The way some people talk you’d think that Christ was a registered Republican and was wrapped in the Star Spangled Banner before being placed in the tomb.

Remember that your faith is not national. It’s universal. Don’t let crummy people spoil what could be a very rich spiritual life. And if things get too depressing, look to Pope Francis. His voice should be heard above any pundit or commentator.

This is an important point. You actually stated it more succinctly than when I tried earlier.
Catholic means Universal. Faith does inform my politics, but I don’t use politics as a platform for my faith. When I discuss my pro-life stance, for instance, I generally try to stay with biological facts regarding human development. It will be the other person who brings up my religion (which I don’t deny) or tries to claim if I am pro-life than I must stand a certain way on a different unrelated issue. The discussion is then totally derailed.
If I am going to discuss the sanctity of life, and how to protect it, then that is where I want my focus to be.

I have never listened to Catholic Radio, nor do I have access to the IHRN. I am familiar to Patrick Madrid’s book Where is that in Scripture? which I received when my brother died. It is very much worth reading. It focuses on ecumenical dialogue, and on spiritual rather than political matters.

I have been blessed in being able to travel, to live overseas where Christianity is not the dominant religion. I understand the scripture, “I was an alien in a foreign land.”

 

[StudentMI]

To posters who compare ‘leaving’ ‘Catholic radio’ to losing faith, give me a break. You are right to feel disillusioned by this. People are, sorry to say, stupid.

Come the end times, ones opinions on the Confederate flag and the civil war won’t save one’s soul. It’s sad people give so much time to it.

 

[NonTimendum]

…really really hard for a lot of American Catholics to disentangle their faith from their patriotism and politics.
…
Remember that your faith is not national. It’s universal. Don’t let crummy people spoil what could be a very rich spiritual life. And if things get too depressing, look to Pope Francis. His voice should be heard above any pundit or commentator.

Our Faith also classifies patriotism as a virtue and we are to love our nation.

And in a democratic-Republic we are called explicitly to “mix politics and religion”.

 

[hotdiggity]

I wonder if the OP would mind giving examples of what the radio hosts actually said on their various shows that she found so objectionable? I skimmed thru on my phone but didn’t see any specific reference to content as I’d be interested in hearing the comments for myself. If I missed it, forgive me and I’ll point my browser in that direction to find the info

It seems that we’ve jumped to the conclusion that the hosts are bad people. seems like charity requires some specific allegations as to these disgraceful comments.

 

[Claire091166]

I wonder if the OP would mind giving examples of what the radio hosts actually said on their various shows that she found so objectionable? I skimmed thru on my phone but didn’t see any specific reference to content as I’d be interested in hearing the comments for myself. If I missed it, forgive me and I’ll point my browser in that direction to find the info

It seems that we’ve jumped to the conclusion that the hosts are bad people. seems like charity requires some specific allegations as to these disgraceful comments.

1. One has to go back to P Madrid Show archives in 2015, when the 9 black people were killed. I cannot locate those archives.
2. I discussed issue w/Mr Madrid on this same topic when he had a show about racism:
   ihradio.com/2017/01/patrick-madrid-show-jan-16th-2017-hour-2/
3. Shows from 8/14 also tackle this issue. ihradio.com/listen/audio-archives/

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Agreed. American Catholics are majority of Hispanic descent, Catholicism in Africa, Caribbean, and South America has a strong black flavor.

Listening strictly to some American Catholic radio, one would think all American Catholics are white, middle to upper class, and supportive of all things Republican.

How can we encourage more non-white Americans to enter STEM fields?

Makes a big difference in terms of future prospects and income and participation in the economy and in making an impact on society.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

This is an important point. You actually stated it more succinctly than when I tried earlier.
Catholic means Universal. Faith does inform my politics, but I don’t use politics as a platform for my faith. When I discuss my pro-life stance, for instance, I generally try to stay with biological facts regarding human development. It will be the other person who brings up my religion (which I don’t deny) or tries to claim if I am pro-life than I must stand a certain way on a different unrelated issue. The discussion is then totally derailed.
If I am going to discuss the sanctity of life, and how to protect it, then that is where I want my focus to be.

I have never listened to Catholic Radio, nor do I have access to the IHRN. I am familiar to Patrick Madrid’s book Where is that in Scripture? which I received when my brother died. It is very much worth reading. It focuses on ecumenical dialogue, and on spiritual rather than political matters.

I have been blessed in being able to travel, to live overseas where Christianity is not the dominant religion. I understand the scripture, “I was an alien in a foreign land.”

Patrick Madrid “started out” at Catholic Answers.

As did Matt Pinto.

And a lot of other leaders in the evangelization field.