Catholic dogma and the Oriental Tradition

[Mickey]

These kind of facts are a sad reality

Yes.

For example, in my experience dealing with Orthodox Christians, very very very few actually consider confession necessary and don’t feel obligated to go to Mass.

Well…most Orthodox do not understand or use the legalistic term “obligation” for attending Liturgy. We see attendance of Liturgy as a privilege. That still does not excuse missing for no good reason or coming habitually late.

But confession is a problem across the board. I know that the older generation of Greek Orthodox are not very familiar with confession. But I see much more interest in this important sacrament (confession) in the Orthodox Church, than I did in the RCC.

I’ve only met two real EO Christians (aside from online) that share any love for the Sacraments.

Wow! Two? Where do you live? That’s hard to believe.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Wow! Two? Where do you live? That’s hard to believe.

I live in SoCal and most Orthodox are I know are Syrian Orthodox. Of course, when I meet anyone who is of Apostolic faith, I know that a persons choice to be obedient does not reflect what the Church actually teaches - so in some sense I pity them, but I’m much worse so I have bigger problems.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

But confession is a problem across the board. I know that the older generation of Greek Orthodox are not very familiar with confession…

This is true for the older generation of Chaldean Catholics as well - some even think its obsolete.

 

[Mickey]

This is true for the older generation of Chaldean Catholics as well - some even think its obsolete.

Hmmm? I wonder how these things came to be?

 

[Mickey]

but I’m much worse so I have bigger problems.

And I am the most wretched of all sinners. Pray for me.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Hmmm? I wonder how these things came to be?

Weak priests / bishops? Laziness on the side of the faithful? A curse perhaps.

 

[Vico]

The Orthodox continue to celebrate the Conception of the Theotokos by St Anna. It is not the IC and it never was. As your own research shows, there was much infighting over this new doctrine. The Dominicans vs the Franciscans—Aquinas and Bonaventure, Catherine of Sienna, etc…

Which highlights the method of development of dogmas from in the Catholic Church, and which can be declared based upon revelation contained in tradition or scripture, even without direct reference, such as with the Assumption dogma.

Conception of St. Anna is used by the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church and we have one feast (F) and many solmenities (S) of the Theotokos. Of these only the Dormition is required to be celebrated in a parish of the eparchies in the U.S.A., thus preserving the four traditional Greek focal points of the year: Nativity, Pascha, Saints Peter & Paul, and Dormition.

Sep 8 - Birth of the Theotokos (S)
Oct 1 - Protection of the Theotokos (S)
Nov 21 - Entrance of the Theotokos (S)
Dec 8 - Conception of St. Anna (S)
Dec 12 - Our Lady of Guadalupe (S)
Dec 26 - Synaxis of the Theotokos (S)
Feb 2 - Encounter of Our Lord with Simeon (S) - a.k.a. Feast of Purification of B.V.M.
Mar 25 - Annunciation of the Theotokos (S)
Aug 15 - Dormition of the Theotokos (F) - (also Assumption)

 

[Mickey]

Which highlights the method of development of dogmas from in the Catholic Church

No. I do not believe that it was necessary to “develop” something that needed no development. The feast celebrates the conception of the Most Holy Mother of God in the womb of St Anna. Period.

 

[Vico]

No. I do not believe that it was necessary to “develop” something that needed no development. The feast celebrates the conception of the Most Holy Mother of God in the womb of St Anna. Period.

Similarly the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church celebrates the Conception of Saint Anna and it is an optional solmenity, even though the Immaculate Conception dogma is accepted by all Catholics (and for the Latin Church is an obligatory Holy Day), the Toparian and Kontakion do not include the terminology Immaculate Conception, but are traditional.

Maybe there is a fundamental difference between your belief and the Catholic belief, in that that no development from Revelation is needed. Dogma of faith include those that are a development of understanding (grasping its full significance) of Revelation (which were complete). Examples are those dogma defined in the seven ecumenical councils.

Latin Catechism (1990) on Revelation, number 66:

“The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.”[28] Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries."

 

[Mickey]

Similarly the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church celebrates the Conception of Saint Anna and it is an optional solmenity, even though the Immaculate Conception dogma is accepted by all Catholics (and for the Latin Church is an obligatory Holy Day), the Toparian and Kontakion do not include the terminology Immaculate Conception, but are traditional.

When I was with the Ruthenian Catholics, I remember looking at the Epistle book and seeing that the title “Immaculate Conception” was crossed out and someone wrote in, “Conception of Our Most Holy Theotokos by Saint Anna”.

Interesting.

 

[Vico]

When I was with the Ruthenian Catholics, I remember looking at the Epistle book and seeing that the title “Immaculate Conception” was crossed out and someone wrote in, “Conception of Our Most Holy Theotokos by Saint Anna”.

Interesting.

The Byzantine Book of Prayer from 1995, has “Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God by Saint Anne”. I saw that also in the 1995 red Divine Liturgy book (I think it is also that way in the blue Divine Liturgy book).

The revised 2006 (green) Divine Liturgy book has:

“December 7 - Pre-Festive Day of the Maternity”
“December 8 - The Maternity of the Holy Anna”

And the current Metropolitan calendar has for December 8: “The Conception of Saint Anna” on the front and “Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God and Even-Virgin Mary” on the note, stating the traditional name is “The Conception of St. Ann”.

 

[Mickey]

The Byzantine Book of Prayer from 1995, has “Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God by Saint Anne”. I saw that also in the 1995 red Divine Liturgy book (I think it is also that way in the blue Divine Liturgy book).

The revised 2006 (green) Divine Liturgy book has:

“December 7 - Pre-Festive Day of the Maternity”
“December 8 - The Maternity of the Holy Anna”

And the current Metropolitan calendar has for December 8: “The Conception of Saint Anna” on the front and “Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God and Even-Virgin Mary” on the note, stating the traditional name is “The Conception of St. Ann”.

Seems like they cannot make up their minds.

 

[Vico]

Seems like they cannot make up their minds.

I think the current effort is the removal of Latinizations from the Divine Liturgy, but since the dogma of the Immaculate Conception is accepted, and those of other Catholic Church sui iuris (like Latin, Maronite, Melkite, Ukrainian) can fulfill their obligation for Divine Liturgy (or Mass) in any of the Churches sui iuris, it is acceptable to refer to the Immaculate Conception on Dec 8 or 9.

 

[Mickey]

I think the current effort is the removal of Latinizations from the Divine Liturgy

Well then…I think the RDL for the Ruthenians was a set back. As Rome tries to correct her Liturgy and remove some of the gender neutral language, the Ruthenians adopt the old Latin methods.

 

[Mickey]

it is acceptable to refer to the Immaculate Conception on Dec 8 or 9.

You have a choice?

 

[Vico]

Well then…I think the RDL for the Ruthenians was a set back. As Rome tries to correct her Liturgy and remove some of the gender neutral language, the Ruthenians adopt the old Latin methods.

The long standing tradition within the Churches is to fight with each other over everything, and it seems that the people believe is important to preserve that tradition.

 

[Mickey]

The long standing tradition within the Churches is to fight with each other over everything, and it seems that the people believe is important to preserve that tradition.

Some things are worth fighting for. When I was still with the Ruthenian Catholic Church, I strongly believed in the return to the Ruthenian recension. I thought the RDL was a travesty. If I were still there, I would continue to fight against the politically correct RDL. But there were just too many reasons I was compelled to enter the Holy Orthodox Church.

I still love my Ruthenian Catholic brethren and I pray for those who continue to be injured by the reformed Liturgy.

Have a good weekend my friend!

 

[Vico]

You have a choice?

Some examples of the nine Catholic Churches in USA:

Latin Catholic (USA) Dec 8. (obligatory)
Maronite (USA) Dec 8. (obligatory, I.C.)
Syro-Malabar Catholic (USA) Dec. 8 (I.C. of Martha Mariam)
Syro-Malankara Catholic (USA) Dec. 8 (I.C.)
Chaldean Catholic (USA) Dec 8. (Memorial of Mary the Immaculate, obligatory)
Byzantine Catholic (USA) Dec. 8 (non-obligatory solemnity)
Ukrainian Greek Catholic (USA/Canada) Dec. 9 (non-obligatory solemnity)
Melkite (USA) Dec 9. (Con. St. Anne - I.C.)
Armenian Greek Catholic Dec. 9 (Conception)

So I mean one can refer to all of the above as the Immaculate Conception (or Conception of St. Anne).

Of course, if an obligation, assisting is to be anytime between 4pm of the day before through the end of the holy day.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Mickey,

I must say that I find it fascinating that you devote so much of your time and effort on hinging your apologetic for the Latin IC on St Gregory. I have read his sermons on “The Entry” and “The Dormition”…but I have not read his sermons on “The Nativity of the Theotokos” and the “Annuciation”.

I see that he surely alludes to the geneology theory with statements such as:

The flow of generations and circumstances journeys to the destination of that new mystery wrought in her; the statutes of the Spirit provide beforehand types of the future truth.A Homily on the Dormition of Our Supremely Pure Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary

and

In this manner, the choice of the future Mother of God, beginning with the very sons of Adam and proceeding through all the generations of time, through the Providence of God, passes to the Prophet-King David and the successors of his kingdom and lineage.
Discourse on the feast of the Entry of the More Pure Lady Theotokos into the Holy of Holies

---

And although I could never be convinced that St Gregory ever believed in a type of Latin IC…I would surely love to read his other two sermons on “The Annuciation” and “The Nativity of Our Lady”.

I cannot seem to find them on the net.

I don’t see anything from these quotes that remotely indicate a “complete genealogical purification.” What the quotes specifically state is that God made choices down through history, nothing more than that. There is nothing from St. Palamas that points to a “progressive sanctification,” much less a “complete purification.”

Blessings

 

[mardukm]

I must say that I find it fascinating that you devote so much of your time and effort on hinging your apologetic for the Latin IC on St Gregory.

It far from hinges on St. Palamas. He is just one of many witnesses to the teaching of the IC that Mary was united to God from the first moment of her existence. It’s just that he’s the only one that any EO here have felt compelled to claim did not believe in the teaching of the IC.

Further, it should be expected that the Latins should depend on the Eastern witness, since the Latin CC inherited the teaching from the Easterns.

Blessings