Catholic Faith alone

[Melchior]

Is there any definition of Faith Alone that would be acceptable to Catholics?

Here is why I am asking. It seems to me that many, many Catholics have the worst possible understanding of the idea. It basically boils down to intellectually acknowledging that Jesus is who He said he was. But that is clearly not what is meant by the idea of Faith Alone. It has to do with clinging to or embracing Christ for Salvation. Even better throwing oneself at the Mercy of the Crucified one alone for Salvation. In this context faith means a commitment to something or someone. It is not mere believe combined with a complete change in disposition; submitting to God. This type of faith looks like something.

I think that way to often Catholics pour the worst meaning into the definition of Faith used by Protestants. Just as Protestants assume the definition or Works is something separate and superior to faith in Catholicism. In other words we both have defined ourselves in opposition to each other, rather than having stand alone definitions.

So by Faith Alone I mean a faith that is never alone, but working in love. Nevertheless it is faith itself that is primary and must not be set against works but seen as something that includes good works, while understanding that these works do not contribute to Christ’s finished work of atonement but only prove that we have a real faith and not a mere intellectual belief.

Faith alone. Not a faith that is alone.

What do you think?

Mel

 

[yves]

Mel, how about “living faith” and please, could you help me in my thread about protestants? Is it that I lack understanding? I would be most grateful for your insight.

 

[EENS]

yves:

Mel, how about “living faith” and please, could you help me in my thread about protestants? Is it that I lack understanding? I would be most grateful for your insight.

You are understanding. You have understanding–protestantism is heresy. You should hate heresy. God bless.

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

Mel, have you read the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification signed by the Lutheran World Federation and the Vatican? According to it, there is no church-dividing difference between Lutherans and Catholics on the doctrine of justification. In other words, faith alone as understood by Lutherans in particular is reconcilable with the Catholic understanding of justification, and vice versa.

 

[Matt16_18]

Melchior

*So by Faith Alone I mean a faith that is never alone, but working in love. *

That definition is incomplete. A pagan could believe through faith in the Buddha that his good works done in love will bring him the reward of life in the Pure Lands.

You need a definition of Faith Alone that includes Grace Alone. You also need to define in what, or in whom, we need to place our faith. If we place our faith in OSAS doctrine being true, will we necessarily be saved if we live immoral lives as Christians? If we place our faith in a Protestant doctrine that denies the distinction between mortal sin and venial sin, can we be sure that we have saving faith?

Nevertheless it is faith itself that is primary and must not be set against works but seen as something that includes good works, while understanding that these works do not contribute to Christ’s finished work of atonement but only prove that we have a real faith and not a mere intellectual belief.

You have said that mere intellectual assent is not faith. So let me substitute “intellectual assent” for “faith” in the above sentence to show what you don’t believe.

Nevertheless it is intellectual assent itself that is primary and must not be set against works but seen as something that includes good works, while understanding that these works do not contribute to Christ’s finished work of atonement but only prove that we have a real intellectual assent and not a mere intellectual belief.

As you can see that the above sentence becomes utter gibberish when “intellectual assent” is substituted for “faith”. Therefore, the faith that saves us must include good works. But these saving works must also be a work of grace, because we are not saved by faith or works that are apart from grace.

 

[Hananiah]

Melchior:

Is there any definition of Faith Alone that would be acceptable to Catholics?

No. Faith alone always entails the legal accredidation of the alien righteousness of Christ. This doctrine insults the justice of God.

Faith alone. Not a faith that is alone.

What do you think?

As I understand this saying, it means that faith is the only quality which justifies us before God’s court, and that other qualities like hope, love, and works do not, but the type of faith which justifies is one which is always necessarily accompanied by these non-justifying qualities.

This idea is contrary to Scripture and Catholic teaching. In every Biblical judgment scene works are the controlling criterion in God’s decision of who to send to heaven and who to hell (cf. Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:28-29, Romans 2:5-11, Revelation 20:11-15). This means that works justify. Also, St. James explicitly states that works justify. Faith is not the only quality which justifies, so “faith alone” is wrong in every sense of the word (the Joint Declaration on Justification is not binding on the conscience of Catholics).

This is how one shoul concieve the relationship between faith and works. Faith does not necessarily produce works, like a switch which turns on a conveyor belt. Rather, faith enables us to be reconciled with God, and opens up for us the interior life of grace. Then grace, God’s operation in our souls, produces good works through us (Phil 2:13, 1 Cor 15:10, Gal 2:20), if we cooperate that is.

 

[theMutant]

Melchior:

Is there any definition of Faith Alone that would be acceptable to Catholics?
…
Here is why I am asking. It seems to me that many, many Catholics have the worst possible understanding of the idea. It basically boils down to intellectually acknowledging that Jesus is who He said he was. But that is clearly not what is meant by the idea of Faith Alone.

What I think is that you seem to be redefining the term. Faith alone is the English of Sola Fide which is the Protestant doctrine of Faith Alone as taught by Luther, Calvin, and the rest of the so-called Reformers. Luther taught that he could sin all day long and it would have no effect on his salvation. The Protestant idea of Faith Alone is not that faith is required and from there works have an impact on our salvation, it is the idea that works, including works done because of our faith, have absolutely nothing to do with our salvation in any way, shape, or form. That is what is meant by Faith Alone (“faith that is alone”)and it is believed by many Evangelicals and other Protestants. Faith Alone is what caused Luther to deny that the book of James is Scripture; because it is the only place in Scripture that explicitly addresses the idea of being saved by Faith Alone and it rejects that idea. (James 2:14-2:26)

On the other hand, the Reformers also accused the Catholic Church of teaching that faith was not required if you had works. This is not what the Church taught and the Council of Trent condemned the idea in Session 6. Modern apologists often use the term “faith, working in love” but it still means the same as the centuries old declaration of Faith AND works (through Grace).

No, the only “alone” statement that fits Catholic teaching would be “Grace alone.” “Faith alone” only works if you redefine the meaning of the expression to be something other than the commonly held understanding.

 

[Melchior]

EENS:

You are understanding. You have understanding–protestantism is heresy. You should hate heresy. God bless.

Very helpful.

 

[Melchior]

Melchior

*So by Faith Alone I mean a faith that is never alone, but working in love. *

That definition is incomplete. A pagan could believe through faith in the Buddha that his good works done in love will bring him the reward of life in the Pure Lands.

You need a definition of Faith Alone that includes Grace Alone. You also need to define in what, or in whom, we need to place our faith. If we place our faith in OSAS doctrine being true, will we necessarily be saved if we live immoral lives as Christians? If we place our faith in a Protestant doctrine that denies the distinction between mortal sin and venial sin, can we be sure that we have saving faith?

Nevertheless it is faith itself that is primary and must not be set against works but seen as something that includes good works, while understanding that these works do not contribute to Christ’s finished work of atonement but only prove that we have a real faith and not a mere intellectual belief.

You have said that mere intellectual assent is not faith. So let me substitute “intellectual assent” for “faith” in the above sentence to show what you don’t believe.

Nevertheless it is intellectual assent itself that is primary and must not be set against works but seen as something that includes good works, while understanding that these works do not contribute to Christ’s finished work of atonement but only prove that we have a real intellectual assent and not a mere intellectual belief.

As you can see that the above sentence becomes utter gibberish when “intellectual assent” is substituted for “faith”. Therefore, the faith that saves us must include good works. But these saving works must also be a work of grace, because we are not saved by faith or works that are apart from grace.

I was making some assumptions, sorry for not clarifying. Of couse I am talking about Grace alone. Of course faith in Christ alone (which is actually what faith alone means).

How do you define faith?

What do you mean by works? Work of the law (which is the 10 Commandments). How many works must I add to my faith to be saved? How do I know it is a true work? You see where I am going.

You took my definiton and redifined it exactly how I said I was not defining it.

Mel

 

[Melchior]

Hananiah:

No. Faith alone always entails the legal accredidation of the alien righteousness of Christ. This doctrine insults the justice of God.

As I understand this saying, it means that faith is the only quality which justifies us before God’s court, and that other qualities like hope, love, and works do not, but the type of faith which justifies is one which is always necessarily accompanied by these non-justifying qualities.

This idea is contrary to Scripture and Catholic teaching. In every Biblical judgment scene works are the controlling criterion in God’s decision of who to send to heaven and who to hell (cf. Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:28-29, Romans 2:5-11, Revelation 20:11-15). This means that works justify. Also, St. James explicitly states that works justify. Faith is not the only quality which justifies, so “faith alone” is wrong in every sense of the word (the Joint Declaration on Justification is not binding on the conscience of Catholics).

This is how one shoul concieve the relationship between faith and works. Faith does not necessarily produce works, like a switch which turns on a conveyor belt. Rather, faith enables us to be reconciled with God, and opens up for us the interior life of grace. Then grace, God’s operation in our souls, produces good works through us (Phil 2:13, 1 Cor 15:10, Gal 2:20), if we cooperate that is.

So you are saying that faith does not really justify, works do. Do your works wash away your sins?

That last paragraph seems like a distinction wtihout a difference.

Mel

 

[chemcatholic]

My RCIA director gave us a great parallel of faith and works. He told us that whenever he is not feeling particularly ecstatic about his wife, he will go and do something for her like washing the dishes. Through the act of washing the dishes, his love and devotion for her is renewed.

Likewise, our faith is not perfect and often falters. What better way to strengthen that faith then to go out and do a good deed? The two act synergistically - that is, the combination exceeds the sum total of the individual. Well, that’s how I see it anyway.

Peace

 

[Melchior]

theMutant:

What I think is that you seem to be redefining the term. Faith alone is the English of Sola Fide which is the Protestant doctrine of Faith Alone as taught by Luther, Calvin, and the rest of the so-called Reformers. Luther taught that he could sin all day long and it would have no effect on his salvation. The Protestant idea of Faith Alone is not that faith is required and from there works have an impact on our salvation, it is the idea that works, including works done because of our faith, have absolutely nothing to do with our salvation in any way, shape, or form. That is what is meant by Faith Alone (“faith that is alone”)and it is believed by many Evangelicals and other Protestants. Faith Alone is what caused Luther to deny that the book of James is Scripture; because it is the only place in Scripture that explicitly addresses the idea of being saved by Faith Alone and it rejects that idea. (James 2:14-2:26)

On the other hand, the Reformers also accused the Catholic Church of teaching that faith was not required if you had works. This is not what the Church taught and the Council of Trent condemned the idea in Session 6. Modern apologists often use the term “faith, working in love” but it still means the same as the centuries old declaration of Faith AND works (through Grace).

No, the only “alone” statement that fits Catholic teaching would be “Grace alone.” “Faith alone” only works if you redefine the meaning of the expression to be something other than the commonly held understanding.

You really can’t see beyond your Catholic definition of a Protestant doctrine. Read Luther’s Small Catechism to see just how off base your perception of his teachings are. The Catechism is based on the Ten Commandments, the Lord’s Prayer and the Apostles Creed. Obedience is the cornerstone of his theology as it was Calvin’s. This is the exact misperception and misrepresentation I was talking about in my post.

Sadly, it appears by the responses so far by Catholics is that 1) there is no room for understanding, or 2) people will only see what they choose to see.

I am starting to feel like I am waisting my time with this board. It has only served to strenghten my stereo-types of many Catholics as ignorant. So many here accuse protestants of misrepresenting Catholics and then they do the very same thing. I constantly bring up historical Protestant doctrines in topics here and even when I explain what I am getting at, people still choose to squeeze all protestants into the 21st century Evangelical Baptist box. I had hoped for much more from this board.



Mel

 

[theMutant]

Melchior:

You really can’t see beyond your Catholic definition of a Protestant doctrine. Read Luther’s Small Catechism to see just how off base your perception of his teachings are.

Mel,

I will gladly read Luther’s Small Catechism. My statements regarding his views were based on other studies for which I have not found any refutation to date. Additionally, it is not my Catholic definition of a Protestant doctrine that I stated. It is the definition that has been presented to me by many many Protestants over the course of the last 11 years of discussing this issue with them. It is the definition I have heard presented by Protestants in debates on the topic and that I have heard presented by Protestant ministers on the radio and television and presented in Protestant tracts left on my car while I was at Mass. If you have a problem with that definition, please take it up with the Protestants presenting this as the Protestant position, not me.

 

[Melchior]

yves:

Mel, how about “living faith” and please, could you help me in my thread about protestants? Is it that I lack understanding? I would be most grateful for your insight.

Thank you for your response. I appreciate it. I will respond to your post as soon as I stop smarting from the other responses to this one.

Blessings,

Mel

 

[II_Paradox_II]

theMutantI:

will gladly read Luther’s Small Catechism. My statements regarding his views were based on other studies for which I have not found any refutation to date. Additionally, it is not my Catholic definition of a Protestant doctrine that I stated. It is the definition that has been presented to me by many many Protestants over the course of the last 11 years of discussing this issue with them.

As a point of clarifictaion here - I would be careful to study the issues much closer. The definition of “faith alone” as a historical doctrine can be easily verified by studying historical sources. There are innumerable scholarly resources and primary sources available which contradict the account you gave of the doctrine in favor of what Melchior is saying. Individual protestants and pastors are not reliable sources of evidence as to the historical meaning of a term - primary sources and credible secondary scholarship are.

If protestants you know claimed that “faith alone” meant “intellectual assent” for the earlist reformers, they do not know what they are talking about and they need to read far more. The earliest reformers were formulating their doctrine of faith in the context of Augustine’s definition of “faith formed by love” which saw faith as intellectual assent to revelation which then must be “formed” by charity (the greatest virtue). The reformers did not use the term “faith” in the same sense, preferring instead to expand the meaning to include such things as trust and understanding. In this they broke with the medieval Augustinian tradition of assigning “faith” the meager role of simple mental assent. This in addition to quite different ways of defining “salvation” and “justification” that added to the confusion we see today.

Thus, when they said that one is justified through faith alone it did not have the limited meaning of “I am saved by my mental assent to propositions and my salvation is eternally secured by that no matter what I do”.

ken

 

[Matt16_18]

Melchior

• How do you define faith?*

Saving faith is the belief that Jesus freed me from the bondage of sin so that I can live a perfect life. If I have saving faith, I firmly believe, with no doubt, that God will always give me the grace that is sufficient for me to lead the life he wants me to live. Saving faith is not intellectual assent to Christian doctrine.

• What do you mean by works? Work of the law (which is the 10 Commandments). How many works must I add to my faith to be saved? How do I know it is a true work? You see where I am going.*

No, I don’t see where you are going. There are still laws of the OT that are binding on me as a Christian. All the laws of the Torah can be summed up by these three laws:

You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might
Deuteronomy 6:5

You shall love your neighbor as yourself
Leviticus 19:18

I the Lord, am your God. And you shall make and keep yourselves holy, because I am holy.
Leviticus 11:44

The commandments of Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 sum up the Ten Commandments and the rest of moral laws. Jesus, of course, taught that these two laws are still binding on the Christian.

The commandment of Leviticus 11:44 is also binding on the Christian, and was restated by Jesus in this way:

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matt. 5:48
I said that I believe that Jesus will give me the sufficient grace to let me live the life he wants me to live (which is nothing less than a perfect life). Is the life of Christian perfection merely keeping the moral laws that Jesus expects me to keep? Not really. That isn’t even a minimum. Not only must I live a morally, I must also love as Jesus love, and that means that I need to manifest the supernatural works of charity. Merely avoiding sin doesn’t make one a perfect Christian.

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you … For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
Matt. 5:44 & 46

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you …
John 13:34

How did Jesus love? He loved without condition. When I can love as Jesus loves, I will be a perfect Christian – and I can’t do that unless I let Jesus work through me through his sufficient grace.

“He must increase, but I must decrease."
John 3:30

 

[Hananiah]

Melchior:

So you are saying that faith does not really justify, works do. Do your works wash away your sins?

I never said that faith does not justify. Of course it does. Faith is one of a number of qualities which cause justification. However, alone it is not sufficient.

Works do not wash away sins, God does. He does this out of mercy in response to repentance and in the sacraments of Baptism and Confession. Works cause justification in the sense that God rewards good works done in a state of grace with eternal life (Matt 5:12, 6:3-4, 16:27, 25:34 et seq., Luke 6:35, 14:13-14, Rom 2:6, 1 Cor 3:8, Eph 6:8, 2 Tim 4:6-8, and many more). He also rewards faith, as it is written “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” The “it” refers to Abraham’s faith, and the Greek word which is translated as reckoned is logizomai, which means that God recognized Abraham’s faith as a truly righteous quality which inhered in his soul, not that He credited something which Abraham did not actually posses to his account.

Faith is the first and most important of all the qualities which cause justification, because without faith it is impossible to please God and thus nothing done without it can cause justification.

That last paragraph seems like a distinction wtihout a difference.

In Protestant theology, faith necessarily produces good works. In Catholic theology, it makes (supernaturally) good works possible, but does not necessarily produce them.

 

[Columba]

So by Faith Alone I mean a faith that is never alone, but working in love.

Melchoir,

I think I know where you are coming from on this.
I’ve had this discussion with my Best Friend, and we summed up the statement this way: “Faith alone” is not BELIEF alone

I’m sure you probably have a tendancy to hear Catholics emphasizing the importance of works, and not Grace, and are led to believe that Catholics think works are somehow more important (which isn’t true). But even deeper than that, I think we use the word “works” in very different ways.

The folliwing is borrowed from another one of my posts:

The extention of the teaching that “faith without works is dead” in Catholic Moral Theology (ie the science of how to get to heaven and love everyone along the way) basically makes this connection: Your every action (and thought) make up the very fabric of your disposition toward God and your fellow man.
Another way of stating this is when the Bible and the Catholic Church say to “Believe”, this isn’t just a mental/spiritual activity. It involves your whole being. It requires the obedience of your will, which then dictates your actions. Your actions then, in a sense, dictate WHO you are, and where you are going (both in this life and the next).

This is the basis of the Churchs teaching on Mortal Sin: You can, by a single action (or work ) REJECT the Grace of God (the source of all this is always pride - The root of all sin).

I like this example:

A man comes into a bank week after week, year after year, depositing cheques, withdrawing cash, opening mortgages…a regular, law abiding, GOOD customer.

One day, the man walks into the bank, sticks a gun in the tellers face and demands all the cash in the safe. He makes off with the money, but then quickly gets caught.

Should the man be punished? All who appeal to a sense of justice would say yes. Does all his years of doing the “right” thing mean ANYTHING in light of his last action? Not one bit (If anything, it makes it worse because he has betrayed the tellers trust).

Some…many would argue in the Christian life “Belief” can be separated from action, in other words, if I believe I am a good person, and trust in God’s mercy, I can escape the responsibility for my actions (I know you don’t believe this…I’m just framing the statement for you). But Christ, and the Church state that "You are what you do". And if by what I do I REJECT Gods mercy (for we surely have the free will to do so), than I had better hope my next action is true repentance and receiving the Sacrament of Penance.

This truth of action making up our moral fabric is why works are important (sorry, inescapable) in the pursuit of heaven: They make up who we are (and in light of your discussion - our works dictate our acceptance/refusal of the grace of God).

Thanks for the great topic!! I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

 

[theMutant]

II Paradox II:

If protestants you know claimed that “faith alone” meant “intellectual assent” for the earlist reformers, they do not know what they are talking about and they need to read far more.

Duly noted, and thank you.

 

[theMutant]

I have found the following quotes from Luther that makes me understand your position a little bit better. However, Luther’s understanding of the works that go along with faith do not include any act of our own will except for the assent of faith. While the Catholic Church teaches that all good works are the prompting of the Holy Spirit within us, she also acknowledges the use of our free will in cooperating with the Holy Spirit in doing good works and that our cooperation in this also justifies us along with our faith. Luther doesn’t seem to support this idea.

Martin Luther’s Definition of Faith:
An excerpt from “An Introduction to St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans,”
Luther’s German Bible of 1522

[Faith] is God’s work in us, that changes us and gives
new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words.

Faith is a living, bold trust in God’s grace, so certain of God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God’s grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they’re smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.