Catholic Faith alone

[theMutant]

So far, this teaching is very close to that of the Catholic Church, however, other writings of Luther seem to stray from the Catholic Church’s understanding of our involvement in works done by faith.

The Large Catechism
by Martin Luther
XIII
Part Fourth
Of Baptism

But if they say, as they are accustomed: Still Baptism is itself a work, and you say works are of no avail for salvation; what then, becomes of faith? Answer: Yes, our works, indeed, avail nothing for salvation; Baptism, however, is not our work, but God’s (for, as was stated, you must put Christ-baptism far away from a bath-keeper’s baptism). God’s works, however, are saving and necessary for salvation, and do not exclude, but demand, faith; for without faith they could not be apprehended. For by suffering the water to be poured upon you, you have not yet received Baptism in such a manner that it benefits you anything; but it becomes beneficial to you if you have yourself baptized with the thought that this is according to God’s command and ordinance, and besides in God’s name, in order that you may receive in the water the promised salvation. Now, this the fist cannot do, nor the body; but the heart must believe it.
Thus you see plainly that there is here no work done by us, but a treasure which He gives us, and which faith apprehends; just as the Lord Jesus Christ upon the cross is not a work, but a treasure comprehended in the Word, and offered to us and received by faith. Therefore they do us violence by exclaiming against us as though we preach against faith; while we alone insist upon it as being of such necessity that without it nothing can be received nor enjoyed.

We can see here that Luther teaches that we are nothing more than passive recipients of God’s grace; that the works we do in Faith are not our own in any sense, but are God’s. Works done in cooperation with God are not our own but exclusively God’s work. The Catholic Church’s understanding of the relationship between faith and works, is quite different because it is our free response to the Holy Spirit Who moves us to do good works. We can have faith but do no works, however, that faith is dead.

 

[theMutant]

What then of our own sinfulness. If we have faith, but commit evil works, can we lose our salvation? According to the Catholic Church the answer is yes. However, Luther’s opinion appears to be no.

Let Your Sins Be Strong:
A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon
Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521, From the Wartburg

1. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
   the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
   true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
   imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
   your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
   victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
   are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
   however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
   heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that
   through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
   sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
   kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think
   such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
   sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.
   
   On the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521

Now, it is true that God will forgive us no matter how badly we sin, but to say that even killing or committing adultery thousands of times each day will not separate us from God is certainly different than the Catholic understanding of the impact of works on our salvation. For killing and adultery are evil works. It is here that I feel that Luther’s understanding of “works” in relation to the idea of faith alone is incompatible with Catholic understanding.

For if our own will is not a factor in our doing works, then works have nothing to do with our salvation. Salvation is granted through faith alone and the works you do are merely evidence of the faith that lives in you and which alone saves you. The works themselves do nothing to justify you. Beyond that, though, evil works don’t seem to condemn you either. You are saved by faith and faith alone. Works are to no avail. You say that I (and many Protestants) are misinterpreting Luther’s teaching so I will continue to study his writings more closely.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Melchoir,

I recommend the following article by James Akin called “Justification by Faith Alone” cin.org/users/james/ebooks/gospjust/faith_a.htm

Here’s an excerpt:

Many Protestants today realize that Catholics adhere to the idea of salvation sola gratia (by grace alone), but fewer are aware that Catholics do not have to condemn the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.

The term pistis is used in the Bible in a number of different senses, ranging from intellectual belief (Romans 14:22, 23, James 2:19), to assurance (Acts 17:31), and even to trustworthiness or reliability (Romans 3:3, Titus 2:10). Of key importance is Galatians 5:6, which refers to “faith working by charity.” In Catholic theology, this is what is known as fides formata or “faith formed by charity.” The alternative to formed faith is fides informis or “faith unformed by charity.” This is the kind of faith described in James 2:19, for example.

Whether a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone depends on what sense the term “faith” is being used in. If it is being used to refer to unformed faith then a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone (which is the point James is making in James 2:19, as every non-antinomian Evangelical agrees; one is not justified by intellectual belief alone).

However, if the term “faith” is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.
A Catholic would thus reject the idea of justification sola fide informi but wholeheartedly embrace the idea of justification sola fide formata. Adding the word “formed” to clarify the nature of the faith in “sola fide” renders the doctrine completely acceptable to a Catholic.

 

[II_Paradox_II]

theMutant:

Beyond that, though, evil works don’t seem to condemn you either. You are saved by faith and faith alone. Works are to no avail. You say that I (and many Protestants) are misinterpreting Luther’s teaching so I will continue to study his writings more closely.

A quick suggestion -

If you get the chance, pick up a copy of Alister McGrath’s book, “Iustitia Dei”. It’s quite difficult in the whole and probably won’t interest you for most part, but it’s introduction to the the dispute over justification and Augustine’s doctrine of justification is incredibly helpful for understanding this issue (The rest of the book is great too, but you may or may not be interested in it. The first few chapters, however, are very good).

It will give you a broad context for understanding the debates over justifictaion and salvation that were so contentious during the Reformation.

ken

 

[Melchior]

Chris Burgwald:

Mel, have you read the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification signed by the Lutheran World Federation and the Vatican? According to it, there is no church-dividing difference between Lutherans and Catholics on the doctrine of justification. In other words, faith alone as understood by Lutherans in particular is reconcilable with the Catholic understanding of justification, and vice versa.

Hi Chris,

I have. Unfortunately the Lutherans involved were the ultra-Liberal “mainline” ELCA. They are not very committed to the teachings of the Lutheran Book of Concord which is the lutheran faith standard. If it were my denomination, the LCMS, then I would be excited.

Blessings,

Mel

 

[Melchior]

chemcatholic:

My RCIA director gave us a great parallel of faith and works. He told us that whenever he is not feeling particularly ecstatic about his wife, he will go and do something for her like washing the dishes. Through the act of washing the dishes, his love and devotion for her is renewed.

Likewise, our faith is not perfect and often falters. What better way to strengthen that faith then to go out and do a good deed? The two act synergistically - that is, the combination exceeds the sum total of the individual. Well, that’s how I see it anyway.

Peace

This is an intersting point of view and something to think about. Thanks.

 

[Melchior]

TheMutant, Matt 16_18, etc.,

My apologies for my hasty and uncharitable response to you all yesterday. I was frustrated because I felt I was being misunderstood. It was probably not a good time for me to be posting. I have read some of your subsequent responses and it looks like we are getting somewhere.

Please forgive my “outburst”.

Every Blessing,

Mel

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

Melchior:

Hi Chris,

I have. Unfortunately the Lutherans involved were the ultra-Liberal “mainline” ELCA. They are not very committed to the teachings of the Lutheran Book of Concord which is the lutheran faith standard. If it were my denomination, the LCMS, then I would be excited.
Mel

Hey Mel,

I definitely understand that concern, but at the same time, I’d note that the actual Lutheran scholars who worked on the JDDJ were not indicative of the ELCA’s ultra-liberalism; for instance, Michael Root is (from my interactions with him and from reading his work) committed to the BOC, as are folks like Robert Jenson and Carl Braaten, who supported the JDDJ.

In any case, my point was that the JDDJ indicates a form of “faith alone” that is permissible from the Catholic perspective.

 

[jpusateri]

Melchior,

I just read through the posts and I have some comments on your initial post.

So by Faith Alone I mean a faith that is never alone, but working in love. Nevertheless it is faith itself that is primary and must not be set against works but seen as something that includes good works, while understanding that these works do not contribute to Christ’s finished work of atonement but only prove that we have a real faith and not a mere intellectual belief.

1. Yes! Faith is never alone, you need to work in love!
2. Yes! Faith is first (primary) - works done without faith/grace is (in general) useless.

Faith begins sanctification/justification and begins the infusion of sanctifying grace which makes us more predisposed to do good works. Not that after having “faith” that works will automatically begin. It is still a choice in a believer whether or not to practice his faith.

If faith automatically led to works, then faith would be enough since works will follow. That is not the case. Many people say they believe but do not follow the Law of Love. So, since faith without works is dead (James 2:17), you first need to have faith, then consciously follow through and perform good works, BOTH powered and prompted by the grace of Christ. Both are necessary and separate for justification.

As far as atonement is concerned, we may have two different concepts of what Christ did in the “finished work of atonement” on the cross.

Catholic view is that Jesus’ sacrifice is propitiatory and expiatory, not just expiatory. God’s wrath needed to be appeased through the work of a third party mediating/interceding on our behalf (propitiation). (Imagine a friend stepping in [acceptable to the offended party] and mediating in order to abate the anger so as to allow the offender to even LISTEN to repentance.) This means that ALL the work is NOT finished. We as individuals need to repent and believe in Jesus (faith) and, point to his sacrifice (Eucharistic sacrificial memorial), to be on MY (personal) behalf and then LIVE that faith as Jesus wants you to live.

Justification is not a one-time event, but a process. So living in faith is the maintaining of the state of grace. This is your relationship as a son to our Father. Since it’s a relationship, at any time you can hose it up. If you break that relationship through mortal sin, you are no longer justified and need repentance through the Sacrament of Reconciliation to heal it.

Jesus opened the door and God respects our free will to return (as the prodigal son did) to the arms of his forgiving Father.

One question arises from your post in that to WHOM are we to “prove” our faith? God KNOWS all. He knows exactly how much faith we would have. Why DO anything? Why did we need to be born? Predestination denies free will and makes earthly existence unnecessary.

(continued in next post)

 

[jpusateri]

To whom did Abraham demonstrate HIS faith when he nearly sacrificed Isaac? Nobody there but him and God (and the rocks). Qualified faith is not a good enough reason for works.

Scripture also tells us that man will be judged by his works (Rev 20:13) and that those who do wrong will die the second death (Rev 21:8). So to be justified (be saved, get into heaven), believing is not enough, you have to still not sin. Worse yet, we have to not only NOT sin, but we have to LOVE our neighbor. (Isn’t that doing works?) Jesus agrees that the way to salvation is to follow the Law of Love (Luke 10:25-28).

We cannot deny that to be saved/justified/heaven-bound you need to have Faith PLUS Works.

I have mentioned several differences in Catholic vs protestant theology. Many doctrines are intertwined with eachother so that one right belief supports another. Conversely changing one of the doctrines will logically lead to changing another.

I hope I have not added to the misunderstanding.

May God bless you.

 

[The_Barrister]

"Faith without works is dead." James 2:14-26.

I’ve seen arguments to try to get around these clear words of the Bible, but all have been disingenuous. One has to be selective in one’s acceptance of the Bible as the inviolable Word of God in order to believe the argument that faith is all that is required.

Why else did Jesus constantly implore his followers to pick up their cross, to love, to care, to provide for the sick, the poor?

Faith means more than just "belief."

 

[Melchior]

“Faith without works is dead.” James 2:14-26.

I’ve seen arguments to try to get around these clear words of the Bible, but all have been disingenuous. One has to be selective in one’s acceptance of the Bible as the inviolable Word of God in order to believe the argument that faith is all that is required.

Why else did Jesus constantly implore his followers to pick up their cross, to love, to care, to provide for the sick, the poor?

Faith means more than just "belief."

We are in 100% agreement. I don’t know any Christian who thinks faith without works is not dead.

Mel

 

[Matt16_18]

melchior

I have [read the JDDJ]. Unfortunately the Lutherans involved were the ultra-Liberal “mainline” ELCA. They are not very committed to the teachings of the Lutheran Book of Concord which is the lutheran faith standard. If it were my denomination, the LCMS, then I would be excited.

Whoa! The Lutheran World Federation accounts for over 95% of the world’s Lutherans.

The Lutheran World Federation

Who we are:
Member Churches
Currently, 136 churches from 76 countries belong to the LWF. These churches represent 62.3 million of the world’s 66 million Lutherans.

The LCMS are among the less than 5% of world’s Lutherans that live in a parallel universe to the LWF. I agree with you that the LCMS is one of small number of Lutheran sects that actually still confesses the doctrines of Martin Luther. But Catholics see that as a bad thing, not a good thing. From the Catholic POV, the vast majority of the world’s Lutherans have finally been lead by the Spirit to accept once again the Catholic Church’s infallible doctrines concerning Justification.

 

[Melchior]

melchior

I have [read the JDDJ]. Unfortunately the Lutherans involved were the ultra-Liberal “mainline” ELCA. They are not very committed to the teachings of the Lutheran Book of Concord which is the lutheran faith standard. If it were my denomination, the LCMS, then I would be excited.

Whoa! The Lutheran World Federation accounts for over 95% of the world’s Lutherans.

The Lutheran World Federation

Who we are:
Member Churches
Currently, 136 churches from 76 countries belong to the LWF. These churches represent 62.3 million of the world’s 66 million Lutherans.

The LCMS are among the less than 5% of world’s Lutherans that live in a parallel universe to the LWF. I agree with you that the LCMS is one of small number of Lutheran sects that actually still confesses the doctrines of Martin Luther. But Catholics see that as a bad thing, not a good thing. From the Catholic POV, the vast majority of the world’s Lutherans have finally been lead by the Spirit to accept once again the Catholic Church’s infallible doctrines concerning Justification.

Don’t kid yourself, brother . The LCMS agrees with Catholicism on far more issues than justification. We have much closer moral stances, we don’t ordain women, we practice closed communion etc.

The LCMS is the second largest Lutheran body in the United States. Also the largest, the ELCA, broke off from the LCMS because of the moral stands we share in common with Catholicism. Mainline Protestantism has nothing in common with Catholicism. They are just for ecumenism at any cost.

Mel

 

[J_Chrysostomos]

Here’s how I’ve understood it. We are saved by grace alone, through the agency of faith (i.e., a trust, reliance on, and submission to the saving work of Jesus Christ, resulting from illumination and regeneration by the Holy Spirit) alone, but that true Christian faith will always result in works. One who is in Christ has their “want to” changed so that they want to do more things for God. (But we can do nothing for God without the assistance and grace of the Holy Spirit!) In this manner works are necessary to prove faith. Calvin said that “we are saved through faith alone, but not a faith that is alone.” Paul and James spoke on two sides of the same coin. One who has no deeds has no saving faith.

 

[EENS]

Melchior:

Don’t kid yourself, brother . The LCMS agrees Catholicism on far more issues than justification. We have much closer moral stances, we don’t ordain women, we practice closed communion etc.

The LCMS is the second largest Lutheran body in the United States. Also the largest, the ELCA, broke off from the LCMS because of the moral stands we share in common with Catholicism. Mainline Protestantism has nothing in common with Catholicism. They are just for ecumenism at any cost.

Mel

You definitely have to agree with Mel. Orginal protestant heretics (luther, calvin, etc.) were much more Catholic than the protestant heretics of today. Luther even believed in a Consubstantiation (the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Our Lord, but the bread and wine remain, as well.) Of course, Lutherans do not have valid orders, as far as I know; therefore, they have no valid Sacrament.

 

[EENS]

J_Chrysostomos:

Here’s how I’ve understood it. We are saved by grace alone, through the agency of faith (i.e., a trust, reliance on, and submission to the saving work of Jesus Christ, resulting from illumination and regeneration by the Holy Spirit) alone, but that true Christian faith will always result in works. One who is in Christ has their “want to” changed so that they want to do more things for God. (But we can do nothing for God without the assistance and grace of the Holy Spirit!) In this manner works are necessary to prove faith. Calvin said that “we are saved through faith alone, but not a faith that is alone.” Paul and James spoke on two sides of the same coin. One who has no deeds has no saving faith.

That idea (faith alone, but works come from faith, not used as a part of justification) is condemned by the Council of Trent in its canons on justification:

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

We ARE saved by our works: we are saved by Baptism, a work. We are saved by going to Mass every Sunday and Holy Day. We are saved by not breaking the marriage Laws of the Church. We are saved by not committing any mortal sin or breaking any Commandment of the Church, etc. God bless.

 

[theMutant]

J_Chrysostomos:

Here’s how I’ve understood it. We are saved by grace alone, through the agency of faith (i.e., a trust, reliance on, and submission to the saving work of Jesus Christ, resulting from illumination and regeneration by the Holy Spirit) alone, but that true Christian faith will always result in works. One who is in Christ has their “want to” changed so that they want to do more things for God. (But we can do nothing for God without the assistance and grace of the Holy Spirit!) In this manner works are necessary to prove faith. Calvin said that “we are saved through faith alone, but not a faith that is alone.” Paul and James spoke on two sides of the same coin. One who has no deeds has no saving faith.

This is an excellent alternate way of stating what I said previously. One who has true faith will do works but those works are merely evidence of the faith which alone saves us; they do nothing toward our justification. This is where the idea of Faith Alone is incompatible with Catholicism. The compatibility of “some understanding” of fatih alone with Catholicism is the subject of this thread as opened by Melchior.

 

[jpusateri]

I have to disagree with theMutant here.

One who has true faith will do works but those works are merely evidence of the faith which alone saves us; they do nothing toward our justification.

Works are not just evidence of faith. Works do not automatically proceed from a regenerated soul. Works are a product of our free will cooperating with sanctifying grace. There are many believers who do no good works. Protestants argue in that case that they must not have been saved then.

How am I therefore to know if my “coming to faith” was of sufficient quality to save me? When I produce works? If so, then I have no assurance of salvation unless I continually put forth an effort to DO good works. Hm… Now I see that I have to believe AND do good works to be ***and remain ***saved…

Logically, if it were true that all works did was to prove the faith, then faith alone would be true.

I wish I could explain this better.

 

[theMutant]

jpusateri:

I have to disagree with theMutant here.

I will assume that you quickly scanned through my posts in this thread. The portion of my post which you quoted was not my own belief, but my understanding of the Protestant belief of Faith Alone.