Catholic faith and yoga - Two views in the news

[rlg94086]

I think that was actually the case in the OP.

Jim

From the first article…

The class was meeting in the chapel, which Lussier had planned to convert into a multipurpose room so he could eliminate the costly lease on the parish hall. Worshippers in the sanctuary could see the class taking place in the chapel.

Additionally, from the other article…

She had discovered that a nearby Catholic parish in Fort Myers, Florida, was offering Yoga classes*** in the Chapel that surrounded the main altar***.

Now, I don’t know the architecture of that parish, but it sounds like the typical parish where the Chapel is on the other side of the altar from the rest of the sanctuary. It seems like an inappropriate place for a yoga class…even with blinds.

Also…

Mary also observed that much of the Yoga material was embellished with the Om Brahman symbols.

http://www.atmajyoti.org/images/om_yellow_marblish.gif
Is that an exercise symbol I don’t know about?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

rlg94086

From reading the article, it seems as though the chapel is no longer in use, but as the article says, is being converted into a parish hall for parish activities. The parish had been leasing a building next door for activities. The conversion of the chapel into a parish activity center, was saving the parish that expense.

But here’s the true spirit of the event that took place.

It started like this:

An unidentified woman stumbled upon a Friday morning class and was incensed to see yoga in a church, DiLorenzo said.

The woman returned the next Monday, armed with holy water that she sprinkled on the participants as they started their class.

“This is sinful. This is evil,” DiLorenzo recalled her saying.

The unidentified woman’s, behavior should be the red flag here, not the participants of the yoga class. She sounds a little unbalanced.(no pun intended)

Also, the yoga group ended up leaving after the Bishop shut it down, without actually knowing what was going on, and the group was invited by a Lutheran Parish. How nice. The parishioners of the parish have to go to a protestant church to do their exercise, because of some religious fanatic. Who was practicing true Gospel charity here?

Jim

 

[rlg94086]

Jim,

From what I read, I see problems on both sides here. The parishioner handled it very poorly, and I gather that part of the reason has nothing to do with yoga. Rather, there seems to be some struggles involving CTA and VOTF, and that may have colored the situations.

However, some of the complaints were valid. The chapel had not yet been converted, and some of the materials described were those of the spiritual side of yoga. Perhaps, the parish priest didn’t handle things well either.

As far as the class having to move. I really don’t think it is a big deal for the parishioners to find a different place to learn/practice yoga. I do my exercise at a gym…not my local parish.

Since neither of us are there to see the facts of this particular case, we can’t really make a judgment either way. It is hearsay from both sides (not heresy…just hearsay ). You and I don’t know what information the Bishop based his decision and/or whether or not he has on-going struggles with this priest/parish.

Pax,
Robert

rlg94086

From reading the article, it seems as though the chapel is no longer in use, but as the article says, is being converted into a parish hall for parish activities. The parish had been leasing a building next door for activities. The conversion of the chapel into a parish activity center, was saving the parish that expense.

But here’s the true spirit of the event that took place.

The unidentified woman’s, behavior should be the red flag here, not the participants of the yoga class. She sounds a little unbalanced.(no pun intended)

Also, the yoga group ended up leaving after the Bishop shut it down, without actually knowing what was going on, and the group was invited by a Lutheran Parish. How nice. The parishioners of the parish have to go to a protestant church to do their exercise, because of some religious fanatic. Who was practicing true Gospel charity here?

Jim

 

[Klydewannab]

I read this thread with interest, because I also use yoga as an exercise. Before going to the class, I did make sure that they didn’t try to “teach” the spiritual aspects of yoga. They do encourage people to “focus on themselves” and “empty their minds”. However, I look at it differently. Before beginning I offer all that I do to Jesus. Then I try to say the Jesus prayer, the Hail Mary or some other aspiration as I exercise. I try to pray for all the people there, that they may come to know Christ more deeply. This is how I ‘christianize’ my yoga.
Having said that, a friend of mine started going to yoga websites and sending me articles. I would respond by sharing how Christianity viewed the same topic. It was interesting to see how they had part of the truth, but missed the fullness of truth. I finally told her to stop looking for answers outside of her faith. I gave her a book on how to pray which helped her a lot. So, you’re right. Yoga can be a good exercise, but it can also lead to things contrary to Christianity. It is another reason why we should study and know our faith, and ask the Holy Spirt for wisdom and discernment.

 

[Bennie_P]

They do encourage people to “focus on themselves” and “empty their minds”. However, I look at it differently. Before beginning I offer all that I do to Jesus. Then I try to say the Jesus prayer, the Hail Mary or some other aspiration as I exercise. I try to pray for all the people there, that they may come to know Christ more deeply. This is how I ‘christianize’ my yoga.

It sounds like that you are combining yoga and centering prayer,

From Catholic Answers The Rock, this on Centering prayer and these two stories on how yoga was a danger in two people’s lives. Story Two. Please read the conversion stories with an open mind and heart.

 

[Greg27]

I don’t really understand why Christians would seek Eastern meditiation methods, especially in Catholic tradition, which in my view from the various monastic traditions has all the material Eastern religions could offer (in terms of meditation and contemplation) any contemplative could want. I know this as I explored Buddhism for a while before becoming a Catholic and it made me aware that the same thing I was seeking in Buddhism (a deeper spirituality) was already right there in the Christian contemplative tradition, which I had missed before. It is all there in St John of Cross, the Desert monastics, St Benedict, the Carmelites and Carthusians, the Cloud of Unknowing, and so on, but in a perfectly Christian context appropriate when integrated and combined with the sacramental life (as most Christian mystics from the desert fathers to John of Cross and others assume).

 

[Bennie_P]

I don’t really understand why Christians would seek Eastern meditiation methods, especially in Catholic tradition, which in my view from the various monastic traditions has all the material Eastern religions could offer (in terms of meditation and contemplation) any contemplative could want. I know this as I explored Buddhism for a while before becoming a Catholic and it made me aware that the same thing I was seeking in Buddhism (a deeper spirituality) was already right there in the Christian contemplative tradition, which I had missed before. It is all there in St John of Cross, the Desert monastics, St Benedict, the Carmelites and Carthusians, the Cloud of Unknowing, and so on, but in a perfectly Christian context appropriate when integrated and combined with the sacramental life (as most Christian mystics from the desert fathers to John of Cross and others assume).

I don’t understand either, it is like people want to flirt with danger, and somehow, for some reason cannot find the fullness of the faith within the Church and it teachings. Being a convert, that had tried many types of non-Christian spirituality, I have seen it detour many down paths that are truly destructive. The fact that so many good Catholics do subcribe to this different paths and **seem **not to have problems with it gives our younger Catholics the idea that they don’t need just the Church or the Church at all.

But whoso shall cause one of these little ones which believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea. Matt 18:6

Another link about Yoga.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I don’t really understand why Christians would seek Eastern meditiation methods, especially in Catholic tradition, which in my view from the various monastic traditions has all the material Eastern religions could offer (in terms of meditation and contemplation) any contemplative could want. I know this as I explored Buddhism for a while before becoming a Catholic and it made me aware that the same thing I was seeking in Buddhism (a deeper spirituality) was already right there in the Christian contemplative tradition, which I had missed before. It is all there in St John of Cross, the Desert monastics, St Benedict, the Carmelites and Carthusians, the Cloud of Unknowing, and so on, but in a perfectly Christian context appropriate when integrated and combined with the sacramental life (as most Christian mystics from the desert fathers to John of Cross and others assume).

Most of what is taught about Centering Prayer at this web-site is not what Fr. Thomas Keating teaches, but rather, what New Age groups teach about the method. New Age groups also teach their own distorted ideas about the Catholic Mass too, but we’re not about to give up the Mass based on them.

Centering Prayer is what St. Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross teach. Its practicing the presence of God, as Bl Brother Laurence teaches. Anything else is a distortion.

God Bless
Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If you do any form of calisthenic exercises, your essentially doing what the pagan Greeks did and handed down.

There are two parts of Yoga, the physical and the spiritual. The physical is nothing more than physical exercise. The spiritual, which is done outside of the exercise, involves meditation etc.

What spirituality you use is up to you. Catholics, as already has been mentioned, use Catholic spirituality, i.e. the rosary, the Jesus Prayer, Centering Prayer etc.

This is no different than if you did a hour of aerobic exercise and weight lifting, and then did your morning prayers afterward.

Jim

 

[rlg94086]

Jim,

With all due respect, your argument is very weak. Please find an exercise routine that incorporates worship to the Greek pagan gods.

If people are just doing the yoga exercises sans meditation, that is fine. However, you are incorrect about the spiritual being done “outside of the exercise.” For spiritual yoga enthusiasts, they are an integrated act.

Again, this is the caution (i.e. not prohibition) that is required with yoga (and Eastern martial arts). Klydewannab and I both gave examples of people who got into yoga for exercise and ended up looking into the spirituality.

I don’t see a need for spiritual caution for the Pilates, CORE training, aerobics, etc. There are a lot of other exercise options for a Church to offer in their parish hall (not chapel).

Pax,
Robert

If you do any form of calisthenic exercises, your essentially doing what the pagan Greeks did and handed down.

There are two parts of Yoga, the physical and the spiritual. The physical is nothing more than physical exercise. The spiritual, which is done outside of the exercise, involves meditation etc.

What spirituality you use is up to you. Catholics, as already has been mentioned, use Catholic spirituality, i.e. the rosary, the Jesus Prayer, Centering Prayer etc.

This is no different than if you did a hour of aerobic exercise and weight lifting, and then did your morning prayers afterward.

Jim

 

[Bennie_P]

If you do any form of calisthenic exercises, your essentially doing what the pagan Greeks did and handed down.

This was not part of thier worship, yoga is a spiritual exercise.

There are two parts of Yoga, the physical and the spiritual. The physical is nothing more than physical exercise. The spiritual, which is done outside of the exercise, involves meditation etc.

Yoga by diffinition is
**yo·ga **http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifn.
**1. **also Yoga A Hindu discipline aimed at training the consciousness for a state of perfect spiritual insight and tranquillity.
**2. **A system of exercises practiced as part of this discipline to promote control of the body and mind.

[Hindi, from Sanskrit yoga[URL]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/hlowdot.gif[/URL], [I]union, joining[/I]; see yeug- in Indo-European roots.]
[B]yohttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif[/B]gic (-ghttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifk)* adj.*

[I]No matter how you try to define it, all definitions I find do not seperate the excercise from the spiritual aspects, only “Catholics” seem to be able to do that.[/I]
[QUOTE="JimR-OCDS, post: 1408004"]
What spirituality you use is up to you. Catholics, as already has been mentioned, use Catholic spirituality, i.e. the rosary, the Jesus Prayer, Centering Prayer etc.
[/QUOTE]
Centering prayer is not Catholic Spirituality.
[QUOTE="JimR-OCDS, post: 1408004"]
This is no different than if you did a hour of aerobic exercise and weight lifting, and then did your morning prayers afterward.
Jim
[/QUOTE]
don’t think soooooo!

Jim I will agree that we all have a choice, it is called free will.

I just wonder…Do you pray before reading the links? Do you read them at all? or just slide over them? Can you pick out specific parts for discussion?

 

[whatevergirl]

I am into yoga and have been for a few years. Nothing wrong or ‘un-Christian’ about the yoga I do…the rub comes in whereby people cross over the line to viewing yoga as a substitute for spirituality. For some, it’s like a religion…depending on the thoughts and mantras involved. I look at it as strictly a great way to stay flexible.

 

[whatevergirl]

This was not part of thier worship, yoga is a spiritual exercise.

Yoga by diffinition is
**yo·ga **(yhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifghttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif) n.
**1. **also Yoga A Hindu discipline aimed at training the consciousness for a state of perfect spiritual insight and tranquillity.
**2. **A system of exercises practiced as part of this discipline to promote control of the body and mind.

[Hindi, from Sanskrit yoga[URL]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/hlowdot.gif[/URL], [I]union, joining[/I]; see yeug- in Indo-European roots.]
[/QUOTE]
[B]yohttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif[/B]gic (-ghttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifk)* adj.*

[I]No matter how you try to define it, all definitions I find do not seperate the excercise from the spiritual aspects, only “Catholics” seem to be able to do that.[/I]

Centering prayer is not Catholic Spirituality.

don’t think soooooo!

Jim I will agree that we all have a choice, it is called free will.

I just wonder…Do you pray before reading the links? Do you read them at all? or just slide over them? Can you pick out specific parts for discussion?

Centering prayer is not anti-Catholic. My parish actually offers workshops on it. (I belong to a RCC parish lol) Centering prayer can be nothing more than merely saying ‘Jesus, help me…’ over and over. Even the Rosary, by some scholars, has been interpreted to be a type of centering prayer.

I think when we label things too much, we get carried away with thinking that somehow we are going against our faith. Centering prayer should only be about centering on God…His will for our lives…not centering on ourselves. There are some people I know, who feel centering prayer is New Age, and centers on one’s self. I think as Catholics, when we really understand what centering prayer is…we can certainly incoporate it into our prayer life.

I don’t believe that its roots are Catholic. no. And, my prayer life stems out of Catholic teaching…but centering prayer is just a term.

 

[Bennie_P]

I am into yoga and have been for a few years. Nothing wrong or ‘un-Christian’ about the yoga I do…the rub comes in whereby people cross over the line to viewing yoga as a substitute for spirituality. For some, it’s like a religion…depending on the thoughts and mantras involved. I look at it as strictly a great way to stay flexible.

Not from my favorite source but…

A* mantra (Devanagari मन्त्र) is a religious or mystical syllable or poem, typically from the Sanskrit language. Their use varies according to the school and philosophy associated with the mantra…The use of mantras is now widespread throughout various spiritual movements which are based on, or off-shoots of, the practices in the earlier Eastern religions.*

But this is from my favorite source to quote from…

1Co 8:9 - 13 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to the weak. For if a man see thee which hast knowledge sitting at meat in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be emboldened to eat things sacrificed to idols? For through thy knowledge he that is weak perisheth, the brother for whose sake Christ died. And thus, sinning against the brethren, and wounding their conscience when it is weak, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat maketh my brother to stumble, I will eat no flesh for evermore, that I make not my brother to stumble.

I think when we label things too much, we get carried away with thinking that somehow we are going against our faith. Centering prayer should only be about centering on God…His will for our lives…not centering on ourselves. There are some people I know, who feel centering prayer is New Age, and centers on one’s self. I think as Catholics, **when we really understand **what centering prayer is…

we will stay away from it.

Getting back on topic what I noticed about the two articles is one makes Christians look foolish and the other show how Christians are concerned about thier brethren following or falling for false teachings.

I’m glad the Bishop had concerns for his flock and took action…

Pax.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim,

With all due respect, your argument is very weak. Please find an exercise routine that incorporates worship to the Greek pagan gods.

The point is, it comes out of Greek pagan culture. Yoga, as an exercise which comes out of Indian Hindu Culture. Yet, incorporating Hindu mysticism into yoga is no more necessary than incorporating Greek paganism into ordinary exercise.

BTW, if you do Palates, you’re doing yoga. Palates combines yoga with other forms of exercise.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Bennie

This was not part of thier worship, yoga is a spiritual exercise.

Only proves you don’t know what you’re talking about. Yoga exercise, is not spiritual exercise. Yoga meditation is and the two aren’t necessarily done at the same time.

Also, what form of yoga you’re talking about? Not all forms of yoga are the same because not all come from the same Hindu traditions and Hinduism has as many varying forms as Christianity.

Also, taking the literal definition from the dictionary can be as faulty as taking Scripture literally. If we titled the exercise something other than Yoga, you’d only know it as exercise and wouldn’t be posting against it.

Centering prayer is not Catholic Spirituality.

Actually it is, just not your interpretation of it, which of course isn’t accurate.

Peace
Jim

 

[whatevergirl]

The point is, it comes out of Greek pagan culture. Yoga, as an exercise which comes out of Indian Hindu Culture. Yet, incorporating Hindu mysticism into yoga is no more necessary than incorporating Greek paganism into ordinary exercise.

BTW, if you do Palates, you’re doing yoga. Palates combines yoga with other forms of exercise.

Jim

agreed.

 

[rlg94086]

The point is, it comes out of Greek pagan culture. Yoga, as an exercise which comes out of Indian Hindu Culture. Yet, incorporating Hindu mysticism into yoga is no more necessary than incorporating Greek paganism into ordinary exercise.

My point was that yoga with Hindu mysticism actually exists today, and there is therefore a risk that some will go further down that path. There is no exercise form I know of that incorporates Greek paganism today. That’s why your argument that exercise originates from the Greeks is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

BTW, if you do Palates, you’re doing yoga. Palates combines yoga with other forms of exercise.

Jim

Pilates was influenced by yoga and other exercises, but to say “you’re doing yoga” is wholly inaccurate. It would be like saying someone who practices Krav Maga (an Israeli mixed-martial art) is “doing” Judo.
bbu.pilates.com/instructor-training/what-is-pilates.html

Pilates - History to present day

Joseph Hubertus Pilates was born in Germany around 1880. He had rheumatic fever, asthma and rickets as a child and was plagued by a weak respiratory system. In order to improve his own health he began exploring ways to strengthen his body and his mind. Early on, Joe became intrigued by the classical notion of the ideal man who combined a well trained body with an equally well trained intellect. In pursuit of this goal he participated in boxing, fencing, wrestling and gymnastics as well as exploring yoga and zen meditation. Germany was a fertile ground for these explorations at the turn of the 20th century with many ground breaking leaders in movement science, dance and psychology working there.

Joe was in England touring with a boxer when World War 1 broke out. He was held as a resident alien in an internment camp near Lancaster for the duration of the war. While in the camp he took it upon himself to lead his fellow detainees in a daily exercise program. According to Joe, when the influenza epidemic of 1918 – 1919 broke out, none of the inmates that followed his regimen got sick.

There is no spiritual form of Pilates.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

rlg

My point was that yoga with Hindu mysticism actually exists today, and there is therefore a risk that some will go further down that path. There is no exercise form I know of that incorporates Greek paganism today. That’s why your argument that exercise originates from the Greeks is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Its relevant because exercise and religious practice are two different things. Some forms of Yoga do involve posses with mediation involved, but as a for of physical exercise, they’re useless.

Pilate’s was influenced by yoga and other exercises, but to say “you’re doing yoga” is wholly inaccurate. It would be like saying someone who practices Krav Maga (an Israeli mixed-martial art) is “doing” Judo.

There are yoga postures in Pilate’s, I’ve seen them and I’ve done them.

There is no spiritual form of Pilates.

Neither is their in yoga, unless you follow down that path.

Peace
Jim

 

[rlg94086]

Neither is their in yoga, unless you follow down that path.

There is no path to spirituality to follow in Pilates…there is in yoga. That’s the point. :banghead:

Since I have no problem with someone doing yoga exercise and only caution people not to go down that spiritual path, I really have no more to say. You keep denying the path, and then say “unless you follow the path.”

This discussion is more tiring than vigorous calisthenics. I’m exhausted and dizzy. :whacky:

I will leave you to your non-spiritual, and not at all possibly linked to spiritual yoga. It’s not at my parish, and I doubt that our priest would allow it, so it is a non-issue for me.