Catholic Folk Masses--Uncomfortable?

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Do y’all realize that there are Catholics out there who have grappled with this very question for forty years? Yes, I am uncomfortable with them. I have driven 25 miles one way since 1983 to avoid them at all costs.

How about this order of service for Mass?

Entrance antiphon: Sons of God Hear His Holy Word
Offertory: Sounds of Silence
Communion: Bridge over Troubled Waters
Recessional: And They’ll Know We are Christians by our Love.

May, 1969 - My graduation Mass from a Catholic high school.

I didn’t like it then. I don’t like it now. Just my :twocents:
 
Do y’all realize that there are Catholics out there who have grappled with this very question for forty years? Yes, I am uncomfortable with them. I have driven 25 miles one way since 1983 to avoid them at all costs.

How about this order of service for Mass?

Entrance antiphon: Sons of God Hear His Holy Word
Offertory: Sounds of Silence
Communion: Bridge over Troubled Waters
Recessional: And They’ll Know We are Christians by our Love.

May, 1969 - My graduation Mass from a Catholic high school.

I didn’t like it then. I don’t like it now. Just my :twocents:
That entrance hymn always bothered me – the language seemed unnecessarily gender-specific. I’d agree with the offertory and Communion songs being inappropriate. But that recessional never bothered me – and I could sing it. 🙂
 
That entrance hymn always bothered me – the language seemed unnecessarily gender-specific. I’d agree with the offertory and Communion songs being inappropriate. But that recessional never bothered me – and I could sing it. 🙂
Here is a challenge for you. Next time you hear “Tusk” by Fleetwood Mac, sing along to it, only substitute the words to “They’ll Know We Are Christians.” That happened to me when I was driving from College Station to Houston. The resemblence was downright eerie and scary. Methinks that whoever wrote this was listening to way too much Fleetwood Mac.

There is a also a deeper problem with the song. It talks about us/we and pays little attention to God. It is directed at how wonderful we are and celebrating ourselves. Plus, it is theologically deficient. It actually sounds like “I’'d Like to Teach the World to Sing” with a Fleetwood Mac beat.
 
I’ve always loved that particular song. I find it inspirational.
 
I’ve always loved that particular song. I find it inspirational.
But, I thnk if you carefully look at the lyrics, the focus is on us, rather than on God. Therein lies the problem. It’s all about the “we” instead of the “He”. When we start focusing on ourselves rather than on God, we have made ourselves the central piece and not God.
 
But, I thnk if you carefully look at the lyrics, the focus is on us, rather than on God. Therein lies the problem. It’s all about the “we” instead of the “He”. When we start focusing on ourselves rather than on God, we have made ourselves the central piece and not God.
Geez…now its not even ok for someone to LIKE a song? Why in the world are you trying to talk someone out of just liking a song?
 
Geez…now its not even ok for someone to LIKE a song? Why in the world are you trying to talk someone out of just liking a song?
It’s not that I am saying that it is not okay. I am trying to explain why this particular song isn’t the greatest one in the world, especially for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It focuses on the We instead of the He, for one. The second reason is that it is too commercially driven and sounds like it was inspired more by Fleetwood Mac than anything else.

If you read the entire thread, you would have seen that this particular song was referenced as having been used at Mass along with some pieces by Simon and Garfunkel. I was pointing out that there are problems with the song.
 
I think the song is great. It’s perfect for the recessional because it reminds us to go and serve the Lord, that they’ll know we are Christians by our love. Of course, the recessional is not a part of the Mass, as you know, since the Mass ends before the recessional song.

I really, really like that song.
 
I think the song is great. It’s perfect for the recessional because it reminds us to go and serve the Lord, that they’ll know we are Christians by our love. Of course, the recessional is not a part of the Mass, as you know, since the Mass ends before the recessional song.

I really, really like that song.
However, I do not believe that it is appropriate for performance in the Church. If you look at the words:
We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord
We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord
And we pray that all unity may one day be restored
And they’ll know we are Christians by our love, by our love
They will know we are Christians by our love
We will work with each other, we will work side by side
We will work with each other, we will work side by side
And we’ll guard each one’s dignity and save each one’s pride
And they’ll know we are Christians by our love, by our love
They will know we are Christians by our love
By our love, by our love
And they’ll know we are Christians by our love, by our love
They will know we are Christians by our love
We will walk with each other, we will walk hand in hand
We will walk with each other, we will walk hand in hand
And together we’ll spread the news that God is in our land
And they’ll know we are Christians by our love, by our love
They will know we are Christians by our love
By our love, by our love
And they’ll know we are Christians by our love, by our love
They will know we are Christians by our love
Who is the main focus here? Who is the one doing all of the action? We are. There is little to no reference to God except in the first line. It is, as the late Fr. Richard John Neuhaus once noted, a celebration of our wonderful selves. What he wrote in his critical review of the DC Papal Mass certainly serves to validate the point:
. The point I was making is that Benedict has written very specifically over the years about the distortion of the dynamics of worship when attention is focused on “our wonderful selves” rather than on the glory of God. He has also stressed the importance of renewing commitment to and continuity in the tradition of sacred music, including Gregorian chant, a tradition almost entirely absent from the stadium Mass. So the point of the commentary on that Mass is that it is remarkable that, on matters about which Benedict has been so emphatic, his views were so egregiously ignored or defied."
Thus, these “folk music” songs that have infiltrated the Mass during the experimentational period of the late 1960s-80s have run their course. The experiment is over and it has done nothing more than to downgrade the quality of what should be sacred music for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Furthermore, if you look at what the USCCB noted in its powerpoint presentation of the original Sing to the Lord document, you will note that they conducted a survey on music used throughout the United States. Here is one of the findings:
Emphasizes Individual or Larger Church? 55% of the songs emphasized the individual believer, 35% emphasized concerns of the larger Church, while 10% were centered exclusively on praise of God.
That is a pretty telling statement. The problem is that the folks who wrote this kind of music may have never read Musicam Sacram, let alone the authoritative documents of the Holy See on Sacred Music.
 
Well, I like the song very much, so I guess we disagree. 😉
So, with all due respect, you are not willing to take a step back and look at the song to see how it stands against the merits of what the Church says sacred music should be? Liking the song is one thing, but, as far as advocating its use for liturgy (and I have heard it placed in the offertory and elsewhere) that is an entirely different issue.

I heard an excellent homily today about the importance of the sacred litirgy. The prelate said that we have forgotten what a sense of the truly sacred is. In effect, we have reduced Jesus to the caricature of a flower child where he is all about peace and love, when that is certainly not the case. He was especially critical about the lack of quality in the music we use for the Mass, comparing it to an old Coca Cola commercial about teaching the world to sing. It was interesting to see the reaction of the music director because she pretty much chooses the watered down stuff that OCP shoves down our collecive throats.

The reason he brought this up was to tie it into the Cycle A Gospel. We have a distorted image of Jesus as God and Man. We either see Him as the all-powerful God who can do all things, but is quick to catch us doing wrong or the all-loving God who only cares about hearts and flowers. We need to see Him as the God who was able to raise Lazarus while at the same time being moved to the deepest emotions for us.

You are obviously free to like whatever you like. I am simply trying to point out to you that this song, as I see it, is quite deficient, especially if one advocates its use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It focuses too much on ourselves and pays little attention to God. We are the actors, not He. In other words, it’s about us and what we are doing and very little to do with God.
 
The more I think about it, the more I like the song. It’s a great song. I like singing it and it inspires me. 🙂
 
The more I think about it, the more I like the song. It’s a great song. I like singing it and it inspires me. 🙂
And you’ve just proven why it’s not a good song to sing at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Call me old-fashioned, but if we sing songs at Mass, those songs should be consistent with the existing sung parts of the liturgy. If a hymn or song does not fit with the attitude of (in particular but not limited to) the Sanctus or the Gloria, it should not be sung at Mass.

Outside Mass, listen to it, or other similar songs, all you like. That’s up to you. But as far as the Mass is concerned, music is the servant of the liturgy, and must be consonant with it. This is why the Church says that Gregorian chant should take pride of place in the liturgy, and is particularly suited to it (Sacrosanctum Concilium 116, also the whole context of 112-121; cf. also Musicam Sacram 47-53; St. Pius X, Tra le Sollecitudini (1903), particularly 1-3, 23).
 
I’m not seeing an outpouring of Christ’s love here from those opposed to the song. 🙂 Maybe they need to hear those lyrics and take them to heart. “The will know we are Christians by our love”

It’s a call to witness the love of Christ to the World!
 
I’m not seeing an outpouring of Christ’s love here from those opposed to the song.
But that’s actually not a rejoinder to the criticisms levelled at the song, or similar songs, is it?

In any case, whether we love each other as brothers and sisters in Christ has little to no bearing on the point being debated–namely, whether a particular song is suited to the liturgy or not. To state again: sing and listen to it all you like outside of Mass. No-one’s stopping you! You may very well get a lot out of the song, and that’s fine. Doesn’t make it a worthy song to sing at the Mass, though.

What I and others here are contending is that the emphasis of the song–i.e. the congregation rather than God–does not make it a good song to sing at the Holy Mass. Your “lack of love” comment doesn’t answer those contentions. When did I demonstrate a lack of love? When was I rude or discourteous? Please, respond to the arguments–don’t try and change the subject!
It’s a call to witness the love of Christ to the World!
There are songs with far more of an emphasis on Christ that communicate the same thing.

My root question is merely as follows: Why sing a song that is overwhelmingly about “we” and “us” at the Mass, when there are plenty of other songs that are about God and are suitable for the outgoing processional? Why sing a song at the Mass that does not have the focus the Mass requires of us?
 
This will be my last post on this subject. I like the song, it inspires me, and I see nothing wrong with it. Have a good day. 👍
 
To answer the original point:

I dislike folk music. My personal musical tastes lie elsewhere. My girlfriend, however, quite likes folk, which is of course up to her. She doesn’t like some of the music I choose to listen to, neither do I like some of the music she chooses to listen to.

Both of us are, however, of the opinion that folk music is **not suitable **for the Mass.

Having examined the documents of the Second Vatican Council, the writings of St. Pius X (Tra le Solleticudini, 1903) and Pius XII (Musicae Sacrae, 1955), and various other writings, it seems obvious to me that a lot of folk music–and, to be fair, a lot of other contemporary music as well–lacks the necessary qualities needed for sacred music. Now, one could claim that I have a pre-existing bias against folk music, which would probably be true; the fact remains, however, that my girlfriend, a fan of folk, agrees with me in this regard.

It is my sincere conviction that parish musicians, parish priests, and diocesan bishops need to go back to what the documents of the Second Vatican Council ask for–that Latin and Gregorian chant take pride of place in Ordinary Form Masses, that the entire congregation be enabled to sing the liturgy in Latin, that scholas be set up, etc. There seems to have been an awful lot of musical claptrap smuggled in during the 1970s-80s under the guise of the “spirit of Vatican II”, but what is not in accord with what the Second Vatican Council actually asked for cannot then be part of its “spirit”.

There is a lot I am not saying here. I am not, for instance, saying that there has been no good music written in the last 50 years or so. No doubt that there has. Observe, for instance, the Chabanel Psalms project, which successfully brings together the traditional and modern. Neither am I saying that we should wind the clock back and do the Mass entirely in Latin. Having certain sections of the Mass in the vernacular is, I believe, a good thing–but it’s called the Latin Rite for a reason! I don’t think that the Second Vatican Council envisaged the Mass being held entirely in the vernacular, as now so often happens, hence why Sacrosanctum Concilium carves out a privileged place for Latin in the liturgy.

Hopefully, when the new English translation of the Missale Romanum comes into force, a re-examination of liturgical music in light of what Vatican II actually says will be made, and truly sacred music will return to the Mass.

For the moment, inspired by our Holy Father Benedict XVI, I certainly will attempt to ensure that the parish I am part of does its re-reading of Vatican II, in continuity with the tradition of the Church and not separate from it.
 
This will be my last post on this subject. I like the song, it inspires me, and I see nothing wrong with it. Have a good day. 👍
Let it then be on the record that you have not replied to any of the criticisms levelled at the song with regard to its use in the liturgy.

To state once again: *no-one is telling you that you cannot listen to it, or enjoy it, or use it in your own devotional life. *You are completely free to do all these things.

But **it is not and never will be **a suitable song for the Mass, for the reasons I and benedictgal have already stated.
 
To state once again: *no-one is telling you that you cannot listen to it, or enjoy it, or use it in your own devotional life. *You are completely free to do all these things.
Um, yes they are.
Originally Posted by Middleman
I’ve always loved that particular song. I find it inspirational.
But, I thnk if you carefully look at the lyrics, the focus is on us, rather than on God. Therein lies the problem. It’s all about the “we” instead of the “He”. When we start focusing on ourselves rather than on God, we have made ourselves the central piece and not God.
I’ve read the entire thread, thank you. I know this was originally talking about use in the liturgy. I don’t really care for the song nor think it should be used in mass either, but that argument had died for a small amount of time, and all this person said was the above quote : “I’ve always loved the song”

So yes, the argument started into taste…trying to talk someone out of liking a song. This is getting ridiculous. On another thread, someone said they thought chant was boring, and they were harped on for “denegrating” chant. That’s not denegrating anything. That’s a taste issue, and just because the church holds chant in high esteem does not mean our tastes automatically change nor should they.

Let it go.
 
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