Catholic Gifts to Lutherans

[Deva1234]

Nonsense. The closest mediaeval cathedral to me has been in the hands of the bishops of Durham since it was built by William of St. Calais in the eleventh century. The only difference is that the bishops are sadly no longer in full communion with Rome.

Utter nonsense word play.

England has been ruled by the kings and queens of England for over a thousand years but there’s still been some that stole the kingdom from others.

 

[Novocastrian]

Well, talking about generosity, how about your sister church in Ireland, the ridiculously and arrogantly named Church of Ireland, donating 1 of its 2 empty stolen cathedrals in Dublin back to the people they stole it from.

That would be so generous.

I’ll happily agree that Ireland is a very different case, because there remained an episcopate in communion with Rome down to the present day. The Roman Catholics in Ireland and the Church of Ireland are the ancient Irish Church split (rather unevenly!) in two. Besides, as I’m sure you know, Ireland’s ecclesiastical division is about far more than faith and church order, and much more to do with politics and the troubled relationship between people and Crown.

 

[Novocastrian]

Utter nonsense word play.

England has been ruled by the kings and queens of England for over a thousand years but there’s still been some that stole the kingdom from others.

Well if you’ll accept a disruption in the succession for such reasons, then I’d be interested as to how you’d defend the idea of episcopal succession (not sacramental apostolic succession) in most Roman Catholic Sees in Europe. Surely you know that there have been plenty of Bishops of Rome removed by force, etc?

 

[Deva1234]

I’ll happily agree that Ireland is a very different case, because there remained an episcopate in communion with Rome down to the present day. The Roman Catholics in Ireland and the Church of Ireland are the ancient Irish Church split (rather unevenly!) in two. Besides, as I’m sure you know, Ireland’s ecclesiastical division is about far more than faith and church order, and much more to do with politics and the troubled relationship between people and Crown.

You really are a fantasist.

There were no Anglicans in Ireland before the 1500s before the didn’t exist.

 

[Novocastrian]

You really are a fantasist.

There were no Anglicans in Ireland before the 1500s before the didn’t exist.

There’s no need to be rude. And you’re right. Then again, the Orthodox would say that there were no “Roman Catholics” before the Schism.

 

[Deva1234]

Well if you’ll accept a disruption in the succession for such reasons, then I’d be interested as to how you’d defend the idea of episcopal succession (not sacramental apostolic succession) in most Roman Catholic Sees in Europe. Surely you know that there have been plenty of Bishops of Rome removed by force, etc?

But did the religion change?

Did people suddenly stop believing in the real presence or in purgatory?

No.

And neither did they in England. Which is why they had to introduce laws to enforce such beliefs. Because a new, different religion was being forced on the population.

 

[Deva1234]

There’s no need to be rude. And you’re right. Then again, the Orthodox would say that there were no “Roman Catholics” before the Schism.

Not being rude. Just pointing something out.

No point discussing the phrase ‘Roman Catholic’, too loaded and controversial.

 

[Novocastrian]

But did the religion change?

Did people suddenly stop believing in the real presence or in purgatory?

No.

Nope, of course not. At least not all of them. And there are those of us who have maintained the catholic and orthodox doctrines of real presence, etc.

And neither did they in England. Which is why they had to introduce laws to enforce such beliefs. Because a new, different religion was being forced on the population.

I don’t know about a different religion. Even the modern Roman Church recognises the Christian faith and baptism of the Church of England.

 

[Deva1234]

Nope, of course not. At least not all of them. And there are those of us who have maintained the catholic and orthodox doctrines of real presence, etc.

.

A religion that allows some but not all of the people to believe in the real presence?

In other words, a different religion.

 

[Novocastrian]

A religion that allows some but not all of the people to believe in the real presence?

In other words, a different religion.

By the same argument, I could say that Roman Catholicism pre-Trent was a different religion to Roman Catholicism post-Trent, on the basis that official formularies of dogma were redefined at that point. Likewise with regard to the Second Vatican Council, as some sedevacantists and the like would have us believe.

Anyway, I think we’re distracting from what was initially a slightly more optimistic and charitable thread, but I’d be very happy to continue this discussion as part of a separate thread, or via private messages. Apologies to everyone else for derailing somewhat!

 

[Deva1234]

By the same argument, I could say that Roman Catholicism pre-Trent was a different religion to Roman Catholicism post-Trent, on the basis that official formularies of dogma were redefined at that point. Likewise with regard to the Second Vatican Council, as some sedevacantists and the like would have us believe.

AQUOTE]

You’d be wrong to do so.

The faith did not change.

The so-called CofE was a new religion that used force to become the state religion of England.

 

[ephesians2]

Well, talking about generosity, how about your sister church in Ireland, the ridiculously and arrogantly named Church of Ireland, donating 1 of its 2 empty stolen cathedrals in Dublin back to the people they stole it from.

That would be so generous.

Interesting. I was waiting for someone to ask this. Although , I don’t know if I agree with all of the adjectives and verbs used, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[ephesians2]

I’ll happily agree that Ireland is a very different case, because there remained an episcopate in communion with Rome down to the present day. The Roman Catholics in Ireland and the Church of Ireland are the ancient Irish Church split (rather unevenly!) in two. Besides, as I’m sure you know, Ireland’s ecclesiastical division is about far more than faith and church order, and much more to do with politics and the troubled relationship between people and Crown.

“and much more to do with politics and the troubled relationship between people and Crown”

Exactly!

 

[pablope]

I am very grateful to CAF for providing dialogue, though sometimes harsh, it stimulates interest & study. The desire for unity of holy Church points out similarities. The visual impact calms the angry voice.

This wonderful Catholic gift, that Lutherans cherish, is the Church of St Jacob in Rothenburg, Germany. Many churches in Germany, built in the 1500’s and not damaged during WW2, serve as parishes.
travelsignposts.com/Germany/sightseeing/jakobskirche

Beautiful indeed.

I checked the link to get info on the images around the Crucifix:

The most important of Jakobskirche features is the main altar. The Altar of the Twelve Apostles is one of the most important high altars in Germany. The central altarpiece shows Christ on the cross surrounded by four angels. Below from left to right are Mary, James (patron saint of Jakobskirche), Elizabeth, John, Leonard and Anthony.

Now, this got me curious…who is “Leonard and Anthony”?

 

[benjohnson]

Beautiful indeed.

I checked the link to get info on the images around the Crucifix:

The most important of Jakobskirche features is the main altar. The Altar of the Twelve Apostles is one of the most important high altars in Germany. The central altarpiece shows Christ on the cross surrounded by four angels. Below from left to right are Mary, James (patron saint of Jakobskirche), Elizabeth, John, Leonard and Anthony.

Now, this got me curious…who is “Leonard and Anthony”?

A lot of paintings of the Cross, of that era, have people inserted them as a show of that person’s devotion:

Perhaps

St. Anthony - he’s often depicted with the infant Jesus: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_of_Padua

And St. Leonard - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Leonard_of_Noblac

 

[Avila123]

When one listens to Lutheran heavenly praises to God, there is no doubt that we are part of the Church Catholic;
youtube.com/watch?v=u0y7ISOg7QA&list=PLWWdHNIgmXRktz5TN6X6tmkb_jFLi15VQ

Thank you. I enjoyed watching and listening to that As a person who tends not to like modern buildings (usually because they are ugly) I must admit that was a beautiful building. I really liked the stain glass, our church only has very pale diamond glass but it fits in with the overall building.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

More Bach sung at Christ the King parish [LCMS] in Ringwood, New Jersey
youtube.com/watch?v=YsWfNaFyg0Y

Interesting contrast between old churches [built by Roman Catholics] and this modern Lutheran parish in the video. But a closer look reveals a hanging crucifix [covered in purple cloth for Lent] and a tabernacle behind the free-standing altar. But, otherwise, most Lutheran churches are kind of plain in the U.S. Anglicans have beautiful Christian art in many of their parishes.

 

[Avila123]

Interesting contrast between old churches [built by Roman Catholics] and this modern Lutheran parish in the video. But a closer look reveals a hanging crucifix [covered in purple cloth for Lent] and a tabernacle behind the free-standing altar. But, otherwise, most Lutheran churches are kind of plain in the U.S. Anglicans have beautiful Christian art in many of their parishes.

Truly. I must admit that when I looked at the church in the video, I liked the balance between the simplicity and the artistry.

Our Anglican churches vary greatly from some that are more Catholic than an average Catholic church, those that are very austere (except the stain glass) through to Evangelical Protestant churches which have no altar and have a large floor standing Cross tucked away on the side.

Isn’t it nice to be back to the original Thread of simply looking at the beauty of worshiping God, whether it is through music or architecture.:dancing:

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Truly. I must admit that when I looked at the church in the video, I liked the balance between the simplicity and the artistry.

Our Anglican churches vary greatly from some that are more Catholic than an average Catholic church, those that are very austere (except the stain glass) through to Evangelical Protestant churches which have no altar and have a large floor standing Cross tucked away on the side.

Isn’t it nice to be back to the original Thread of simply looking at the beauty of worshiping God, whether it is through music or architecture.:dancing:

Entirely agree. I love to walk inside churches to view the art. Combine that with music and I have a special connection to God. The magnificent churches in Europe are breath-taking.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Church of England is the ancient church of this land, catholic and reformed. The same Sees once in communion with Rome. The churches are sadly in schism, but not stolen. The Church of England was not created ex nihilo in the 1530s.

Novo-

Perhaps you are forgetting about the destruction of the Catholic monasteries and the theft of their lands, etc. during the 1500’s?