Catholic Gifts to Lutherans

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Concerning some of the “gifts” Lutherans received from Catholics, Dave Armstrong, an experienced and meticulous apologist reminds us of the following words of Luther:

Martin Luther (1523)
. . . there is need of great care, lest the possessions of such vacated foundations become common plunder and everyone make off with what he can get . . . the blame is laid at my door whenever monasteries and foundations are vacated . . . This makes me unwilling to take the additional blame if some greedy bellies should grab these spiritual possessions and claim, in excuse of their conduct, that I was the cause of it . . .

In the first place: it would indeed be well if no rural monasteries, such as those of the Benedictines, Cistercians, Celestines, and the like, had ever appeared upon earth. But now that they are here, the best thing is to suffer them to pass away or to assist them, wherever one properly can, to disappear altogether. This may be done in the following ways. first, by suffering the inmates to leave, if they choose, of their own free will . . .

[then follows an exhortation to charitably provide for those who won’t or can’t leave]

I advise the temporal authorities, however, to take over the possessions of such monasteries . . . it is not a case of greed opposing the spiritual possessions, but of Christian faith opposing the monasteries . . . I am writing this for those only who understand the Gospel and who have the right to take such action in their own lands, cities and jurisdiction . . .

. . . the third way is best, namely, to devote all remaining possessions to the common fund of a common chest, out of which gifts and loans might be made, in Christian love, to all the needy in the land, whether nobles or commons . . .

I am setting down this advice in accordance with Christian love for Christians alone. We must expect greed to creep in here and there . . . it is better that greed take too much in an orderly way than that the whole thing become common plunder, as it happened in Bohemia. Let everyone examine himself to see what he should take for his own needs and what he should leave for the common chest.

In the third place: the same procedure should be followed with respect to abbacies, foundations, and chapters in control of lands, cities and other possessions. For such bishops and foundations are neither bishops nor foundations; they are really at bottom temporal lords sailing under a spiritual name . . .

In the fourth place: part of the possessions of the monasteries and foundations . . . are based upon usury, which now calls itself everywhere “interest,” and which has in but a few years swallowed up the whole world . . . God says, “I hate robbery for burnt offering.” [Is 61:8] . . .

But whosoever will not follow this advice nor curb his greed, of him I wash my hands.

(Preface to an Ordinance of a Common Chest, in Works of Martin Luther [Philadephia edition [PE], IV, 92-98, translated by A.T.W. Steinhaeuser; WA, XII, 11-30; EA, XXII, 106-130; citations from 93-98)

Who does not see that all bishops, foundations, monastic houses, universities, with all that are therein, rage against this clear word of Christ . . .? Hence they are certainly to be regarded as murderers, thieves, wolves and apostate Christians . . .

. . . the hearers not only have the power and the right to judge all preaching, but are obliged to judge it under penalty of forfeiting the favor of Divine Majesty. Thus we see in how unchristian a manner the despots dealt with us when they deprived us of this right and appropriated it to themselves. For this thing alone they have richly deserved to be cast out of the Christian Church and driven forth as wolves, thieves and murderers . . .

(The Right and Power of a Christian Congregation or Community to Judge all Teaching and to Call, Appoint, and Dismiss Teachers, Established and Proved From Scripture, PE, IV, 75-85, translated by A.T.W. Steinhaeuser; WA, XI, 406 ff.; EA, XXII, 141 ff.; citations from 75-79)
 
Welcome to the forum, Deva1234.

I have a feeling you’re going to like it here. 😃
 
Entirely agree. I love to walk inside churches to view the art. Combine that with music and I have a special connection to God. The magnificent churches in Europe are breath-taking.
EvangelCatholic lovely to talk to you and I hope we meet in other Threads. I’m getting out of this Thread because it just seems to me that it is being hi-jacked away from your original topic of a friendly and respectful discussion. The alternative is to wade through some of the posts that (to put it politely) seem more intent on discord and division (whether intentional or not).

God bless you

👍
 
EvangelCatholic lovely to talk to you and I hope we meet in other Threads. I’m getting out of this Thread because it just seems to me that it is being hi-jacked away from your original topic of a friendly and respectful discussion. The alternative is to wade through some of the posts that (to put it politely) seem more intent on discord and division (whether intentional or not).

God bless you

👍
Yes, I see that Randy showed up 😦

I think the issue of Church possessions during the Reformation would be an interesting thread that, perhaps, someone else can post.

But like you, Avila, I become a little child when I walk into a church, in awe of the beauty in art and structure. I have had wonderful moments of prayer and comfort in both St Patrick’s and the cathedral of St John the Divine here in New York.
 
^^ I’ve kind of wondered about that too. Not that it’s unusual for threads to get off-topic, but it’s a bit more striking in this case.
 
Novo-

Perhaps you are forgetting about the destruction of the Catholic monasteries and the theft of their lands, etc. during the 1500’s?
Not at all. I mourn the loss of the monasteries, and we would have been better off if, like the Lutherans, we had allowed at least a few to survive. If, however, you think treatment of the monasteries in such a fashion was unique to Protestants, I suggest that you read some Erasmus or More. Indeed, you will note that the Consilium de Emendenda Ecclesia of 1536 recommended (if I remember correctly; it’s been a year or so since I was studying all this) the widespread suppression of most Roman Catholic monastic houses in an attempt to reform abuses.

The Consilium might have been salutary to the Latin Church had it not been an exercise in shutting the stable door, etc.!
 
Concerning some of the “gifts” Lutherans received from Catholics, Dave Armstrong, an experienced and meticulous apologist reminds us of the following words of Luther:

Martin Luther (1523)
. . . there is need of great care, lest the possessions of such vacated foundations become common plunder and everyone make off with what he can get . . . the blame is laid at my door whenever monasteries and foundations are vacated . . . This makes me unwilling to take the additional blame if some greedy bellies should grab these spiritual possessions and claim, in excuse of their conduct, that I was the cause of it . . .

In the first place: it would indeed be well if no rural monasteries, such as those of the Benedictines, Cistercians, Celestines, and the like, had ever appeared upon earth. But now that they are here, the best thing is to suffer them to pass away or to assist them, wherever one properly can, to disappear altogether. This may be done in the following ways. first, by suffering the inmates to leave, if they choose, of their own free will . . .

[then follows an exhortation to charitably provide for those who won’t or can’t leave]

I advise the temporal authorities, however, to take over the possessions of such monasteries . . . it is not a case of greed opposing the spiritual possessions, but of Christian faith opposing the monasteries . . . I am writing this for those only who understand the Gospel and who have the right to take such action in their own lands, cities and jurisdiction . . .

. . . the third way is best, namely, to devote all remaining possessions to the common fund of a common chest, out of which gifts and loans might be made, in Christian love, to all the needy in the land, whether nobles or commons . . .

I am setting down this advice in accordance with Christian love for Christians alone. We must expect greed to creep in here and there . . . it is better that greed take too much in an orderly way than that the whole thing become common plunder, as it happened in Bohemia. Let everyone examine himself to see what he should take for his own needs and what he should leave for the common chest.

In the third place: the same procedure should be followed with respect to abbacies, foundations, and chapters in control of lands, cities and other possessions. For such bishops and foundations are neither bishops nor foundations; they are really at bottom temporal lords sailing under a spiritual name . . .

In the fourth place: part of the possessions of the monasteries and foundations . . . are based upon usury, which now calls itself everywhere “interest,” and which has in but a few years swallowed up the whole world . . . God says, “I hate robbery for burnt offering.” [Is 61:8] . . .

But whosoever will not follow this advice nor curb his greed, of him I wash my hands.

(Preface to an Ordinance of a Common Chest, in Works of Martin Luther [Philadephia edition [PE], IV, 92-98, translated by A.T.W. Steinhaeuser; WA, XII, 11-30; EA, XXII, 106-130; citations from 93-98)

Who does not see that all bishops, foundations, monastic houses, universities, with all that are therein, rage against this clear word of Christ . . .? Hence they are certainly to be regarded as murderers, thieves, wolves and apostate Christians . . .

. . . the hearers not only have the power and the right to judge all preaching, but are obliged to judge it under penalty of forfeiting the favor of Divine Majesty. Thus we see in how unchristian a manner the despots dealt with us when they deprived us of this right and appropriated it to themselves. For this thing alone they have richly deserved to be cast out of the Christian Church and driven forth as wolves, thieves and murderers . . .

(The Right and Power of a Christian Congregation or Community to Judge all Teaching and to Call, Appoint, and Dismiss Teachers, Established and Proved From Scripture, PE, IV, 75-85, translated by A.T.W. Steinhaeuser; WA, XI, 406 ff.; EA, XXII, 141 ff.; citations from 75-79)
How about we take a clear look at the entire context, rather than redacting certain portions we don’t agree with?

These were not the charitable and quiet monasteries of today. Luther was writing against the greed, cronyism, and even generational despotism that was undeniably rampant in religious institutions of that day (heck, one need only read the Wikipedia page of Leo X for proof of how deep the infection had taken root…). With how horrible monasteries had become in the 1500’s, it would truly have been better had they never existed.

Luther was not, in any way, advocating some violent “destruction of the Catholic monasteries and the theft of their lands, etc.” as you falsely represented. What he was doing was proposing a form of active “welfare” for the needy - a purpose that the monasteries no longer fulfilled. Luther had no qualms with those who had devoted themselves to the monastic lifestyle with the intent to do good in their communities.
 
How about we take a clear look at the entire context, rather than redacting certain portions we don’t agree with?

These were not the charitable and quiet monasteries of today. Luther was writing against the greed, cronyism, and even generational despotism that was undeniably rampant in religious institutions of that day (heck, one need only read the Wikipedia page of Leo X for proof of how deep the infection had taken root…). With how horrible monasteries had become in the 1500’s, it would truly have been better had they never existed.

Luther was not, in any way, advocating some violent “destruction of the Catholic monasteries and the theft of their lands, etc.” as you falsely represented. What he was doing was proposing a form of active “welfare” for the needy - a purpose that the monasteries no longer fulfilled. Luther had no qualms with those who had devoted themselves to the monastic lifestyle with the intent to do good in their communities.
Thanks Don; I don’t have the energy to counter attacks on a thread meant to express gratitude and our commonality of Catholics and Lutherans.

One thing that Lutherans did was to protect these incredibly beautiful churches. Aside from some iconoclasm in Denmark, Lutherans preserved the cathedrals and parish churches. It is true that most Lutheran cathedrals in Europe were built before the Reformation but unlike Calvinist’s, Lutherans did not destroy religious art or remove altars, etc. I am not at my home computer right now but hope to show other examples of Catholic churches that became Lutheran at the time of the Reformation.
 
Yes, I see that Randy showed up 😦
Yeah. And this is an issue because I’m not going to ignore some uncomfortable facts of history?
I think the issue of Church possessions during the Reformation would be an interesting thread that, perhaps, someone else can post.
The Anglicans flat cleaned the Catholic Church out when the monasteries were dissolved. Not much better in Germany or Switzerland.

It was theft, plain and simple, and there has been no apology or reparation for it.

However, y’all have your Maxwell House moment…I’ll leave you to it. 😛
 
Not at all. I mourn the loss of the monasteries, and we would have been better off if, like the Lutherans, we had allowed at least a few to survive. If, however, you think treatment of the monasteries in such a fashion was unique to Protestants, I suggest that you read some Erasmus or More. Indeed, you will note that the Consilium de Emendenda Ecclesia of 1536 recommended (if I remember correctly; it’s been a year or so since I was studying all this) the widespread suppression of most Roman Catholic monastic houses in an attempt to reform abuses.

The Consilium might have been salutary to the Latin Church had it not been an exercise in shutting the stable door, etc.!
The upper classes benefited from the acquisition of the land and industries, but the poor of England were left with little in the way of charities and hospitals that the monasteries provided.

Nice overview here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Monasteries
 
Interesting contrast between old churches [built by Roman Catholics] and this modern Lutheran parish in the video. But a closer look reveals a hanging crucifix [covered in purple cloth for Lent] and a tabernacle behind the free-standing altar. But, otherwise, most Lutheran churches are kind of plain in the U.S. Anglicans have beautiful Christian art in many of their parishes.
Well, the newer ones have tended to be. Older churches are much more ornate, with stained glass windows, etc. I was raised in a town that has lots of Lutherans churches, many of which are of the older variety, and quite beautiful.

Jon
 
Yeah. And this is an issue because I’m not going to **ignore some uncomfortable facts of history?
Is that why you redacted portions of Luther’s writings? Do keep in mind that Luther was fiercely against violent uprisings; see his work against te peasant revolt and my previous post. You may find it equally “uncomfortable” that some Roman Catholics had similar sentiments with the monasteries of that age.
The Anglicans flat cleaned the Catholic Church out when the monasteries were dissolved. Not much better in Germany or Switzerland.

It was theft, plain and simple, and there has been no apology or reparation for it.

However, y’all have your Maxwell House moment…I’ll leave you to it. 😛
Last I knew, Anglicans were not Lutherans. Please do not group protestants together. Lutherans monasteries exist to this day.
 
The upper classes benefited from the acquisition of the land and industries, but the poor of England were left with little in the way of charities and hospitals that the monasteries provided.

Nice overview here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Monasteries
Yup. Sad story.

It’s a matter of historical debate as to whether the Dissolution was religiously motivated. I’m rather persuaded that it was, per Bernard, but as part of a vague programme of evangelicalism which might have been equally at home (at least on Henry’s part) in either Cranmer’s church or that of the Consilium.
 
Is that why you redacted portions of Luther’s writings? Do keep in mind that Luther was fiercely against violent uprisings; see his work against te peasant revolt and my previous post. You may find it equally “uncomfortable” that some Roman Catholics had similar sentiments with the monasteries of that age.

Last I knew, Anglicans were not Lutherans. Please do not group protestants together. Lutherans monasteries exist to this day.
As do Anglican monasteries.

GKC
 
Is that why you redacted portions of Luther’s writings? Do keep in mind that Luther was fiercely against violent uprisings; see his work against te peasant revolt and my previous post. You may find it equally “uncomfortable” that some Roman Catholics had similar sentiments with the monasteries of that age.

Last I knew, Anglicans were not Lutherans. Please do not group protestants together. Lutherans monasteries exist to this day.
Whether you like it or not…you are part of the umbrella of Protestants…with the Anglicans…perhaps the most common factor…anti papacy.
 
Last I knew, Anglicans were not Lutherans. Please do not group protestants together. Lutherans monasteries exist to this day.
I do understand. However, my point was that Catholic monasteries, churches and lands were simply taken by Protestants in both England and Germany.

So, while some have been unhappy with me for butting into this thread, I can’t help but recall that some of the things that Protestants received from the Catholic Church were NOT freely given!

And here’s another of my thoughts: while everyone is busy making reparations and apologizing to the Jews for their ill treatment down through the centuries, is there any chance we Catholics will be getting any of that property back any time soon?

😉
 
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