Catholic Gifts to Lutherans

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EvangelCatholic, I wrote an article in our parish newsletter about this in 2010. As we come to the 500th year of the Reformation, we should keep in mind, that there are still issues that resonate today. Randy has pointed it out with the question of church properties. You point out another unresolved issue. I would say that the buildings are a small item on the list of gifts to the rest of Christianity. The canon of Scripture, the order of service of the mass, concern for social issues, and many other things came to us from the Catholic Church and are gifts of inestimably greater value than all the buildings in Christendom. Even though we have gone different ways in the past 500 years, the things that connect us as Christians should remain our focus. We still have so much to share and to learn from each other.
 
Another treasure is the Cistercian abbey built in 1368
No other church in northern Germany has such complete and historically important liturgical furnishings. The mostly well preserved Cistercian furnishings are unique. The abbey is a unique and precious artistic monument in the coastal region of the Baltic Sea.
Today the Bad Doberan Minster is the main Lutheran Church of Bad Doberan in Germany
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.simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Doberan_Minster

Some incredibly beautiful photos of the 'tree of life; crucifix on this site: muenster-doberan.de/index.php?id=173&L=1
 
What I have learned by studying these ancient treasures is that Lutherans kept things intact and have renovated and preserved the abbey exactly as they received it. The church is a burial place for abbots, dukes [von Mecklenburg family], Queen Margarete of Denmark, Duke Albrecht III, King of Sweden, the first Lutheran bishop of Bad Doberan suggesting that Roman Catholics were still being buried in this beautiful abbey after the Reformation. The tomb of the “first Lutheran pastor, Magister Kruse is shown carrying a layman’s chalice which was in accordance with the reformatory convictions of that time. This depiction of the chalice is a statement of evangelical teaching meaning that the Lutheran belief is the proper”.simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Doberan_Minster

The photo of the huge tabernacle next to a “Chalice Cupboard” where communion ware were stored.
 
One last photo of the magnificent high altar that suggests the niches on either side of the crucifix are left intentionally bare so that the church year color of the holy season [Pentecost] is also portrayed. Anyone have other thoughts?
The main altar:
It was created around 1300 as an enclosed altar by unknown artists. It is not only the oldest wing altar in Germany, but also the oldest in art history. The upper and middle sections date back to that time. The upper row depicts stories from the New Testament which match the depictions of the Old Testament in the middle row. The New Testament is represented on the left wing depicting the joy of Mary and on the right wing the suffering of Mary. Until around 1400, the figure of Mary on the candle holder was in the middle niche of this altar. The wooden figure was then replaced by a large monstrance and several holy pictures. Furthermore relics and monstrances were stored in the shrine. All of these were lost during the 30 year war.

Around 1350 the lower row was added, depicting the apostles and the two patron saints St. Sebastian and Pope Fabian. The upper row on the left wing shows: John the Baptist, the annunciation of Mary, the birth and dedication of Christ. On the right wing: the scourging of Jesus, Jesus carrying the cross, the crucifixion and the resurrection. The middle row on the left wing shows: Eve, Sara, the closed gate, the burning bush and the dedication of Samuel. On the right wing: Moses striking the rock, the suffering of Job, Abraham offering Isaac, the iron serpent, Samon and the city gates of Gaza. The lower row on the left wing shows: St. Fabian, apostles Bartholomew, Thomas, Simon, Matthew, Andrew and Peter. The right wing shows: apostles Paul, Jacob the elder, Evangelist John, Phillip, Judas the Galilean, Matthew and St. Sebastian
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I could not copy many photos due to copyright but recommend this site for details
muenster-doberan.de/index.php?id=171&L=1
 
So many strikingly beautiful churches in Germany. The Lubeck cathedral was started in 1173 by Henry the Lion. It was partly destroyed in a bombing raid in World War II (1942), and later reconstructed. The current church was finished in 1982.
 
On the night of Palm Sunday (28-29 March) 1942 a bombing raid destroyed a fifth of the town centre. Several bombs fell in the area around the church, causing the eastern vault of the quire to collapse and destroying the altar which dated from 1696. A fire from the neighbouring cathedral museum spread to the truss of the cathedral, and around noon on Palm Sunday the towers collapsed. An Arp Schnitger organ was lost in the flames. Nevertheless, a relatively large portion of the internal fittings was saved, including the cross and almost all of the medieval polyptychs. In 1946 a further collapse, of the gable of the north transept, destroyed the vestibule almost completely.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCbeck_Cathedral
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I like the way they rebuilt the cathedral blending old with new.
 
Lutherans focus on the crucifix as the most important object of worship
 
JonNC said:
I’m not sure I would have phrased it exactly like that, but I understand your intent. 😉

Jon
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Not sure about your point? Every Lutheran church has a crucifix [if not around the altar than close-by]. In parishes that use incense, the altar is alway censed and the cross. Is that worshiping an object?
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Not sure about your point? Every Lutheran church has a crucifix [if not around the altar than close-by]. In parishes that use incense, the altar is alway censed and the cross. Is that worshiping an object?
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Well, we don’t actually worship the object. We worship who that crucifix represents, Christ and Him crucified. I know you didn’t mean we worship the crucifix itself. The phrasing just sounded odd. As I said, I know what you meant.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
The phrasing just sounded odd. As I said, I know what you meant.

Jon
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We had a well intentioned sunday-school teacher try to tell our youngest to “be the crucifix” and hold out your arms. I didn’t interrupt her lesson, and she really meant well, but we did come to an a better theological understanding afterwards. Of course, I’ve done worse!
 
benjohnson said:
We had a well intentioned sunday-school teacher try to tell our youngest to “be the crucifix” and hold out your arms. I didn’t interrupt her lesson, and she really meant well, but we did come to an a better theological understanding afterwards. Of course, I’ve done worse!
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Ah yes. There have been lots of times I have explained things less than gracefully. I’m rather please when a Lutheran cleans my mistakes up for me…lurkers and all, you know.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Well, we don’t actually worship the object. We worship who that crucifix represents, Christ and Him crucified. I know you didn’t mean we worship the crucifix itself. The phrasing just sounded odd. As I said, I know what you meant.

Jon
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Jon

Does your parish venerate the crucifix on Good Friday? Lutherans do. Is that worshiping the cross?
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Jon

Does your parish venerate the crucifix on Good Friday? Lutherans do. Is that worshiping the cross?
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I think in Jon was just making the point that in Lutheran theology, veneration is not the same as worship. Don’t worry at all, we understood what you meant!
 
I know this thread has good intentions but I don’t really get where you are going. Catholics didn’t give away the beautiful churches they had built in the centuries preceding the Lutheran secession. The Lutheran bishops and princes converted and took the Catholic church buildings with them when they left–which doesn’t seem like a Catholic “gift” at all!

I don’t think the Church is going to come whining for their properties, but gloating doesn’t really make it better. Any Catholic would prefer that Catholic masses be said in those churches. It’s kind of like a Muslim posting pictures of the Dome of the Rock and saying, “Thanks for the gift of the Temple Mount, Jews, we really enjoy it!” and expecting it to illicit an ecumenical response.

I understand your intention, however, and appreciate what you are trying to achieve. I just think the doctrinal and authority based issues are more important than talking about how cool it is that you have old Catholic buildings.
 
NovusAugustus said:
The Lutheran bishops and princes converted and took the Catholic church buildings with them when they left–which doesn’t seem like a Catholic “gift” at all!
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I certainly understand what you’re saying!

From the Lutherans standpoint, the same reformed catholic bishops preached the gospel to the same reformed catholic partitioners that had always worshiped there. The people were the same before and after just with a slightly different theology.

Like I said, I certainly understand your viewpoint.
 
benjohnson said:
I certainly understand what you’re saying!

From the Lutherans standpoint, the same reformed catholic bishops preached the gospel to the same reformed catholic partitioners that had always worshiped there. The people were the same before and after just with a slightly different theology.

Like I said, I certainly understand your viewpoint.
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It’s very complex and has a lot to do with how I feel about the Lutherans (and Anglicans) in general. In some ways your Churches seem similar to the Orthodox in that some parts of your communion have valid if illicit and schismatic orders and adhere to the Traditional sacraments, but the heterodoxy that was permitted to flourish in your communions in the past couple decades/centuries throws doubt on the legitimacy of the modern Lutheran Churches, even the traditional ones.

That’s why I have mixed feelings about these church buildings.The early Evangelical Catholics had so much in common that they could be seen as similar to groups like the SSPX…but the Evangelical Catholics today seem to be such a loose heterodoxy it is hard to have any view on the “Lutheran” body as a whole. I almost feel that each Lutheran bishop (or priest/pastor if there is no bishop in the area) has to be evaluated individually, which is very frustrating.

I know this is a bit of a rant but I have been reading this section of CAF for a while and it is so frustrating. Obviously we would love a truly ecumenical Church, but how can this be done when you have beautiful, traditional, episcopal, reformed Churches that are considered on a par with strange modern Lutheran churches with priestesses, once-a-month communion and so on.

When I look at an Orthodox Church I say–okay, they may not accept the authority of Rome, so we can never be truly certain of their salvation, but at least I can be certain that they practice valid and true sacraments in accord with Tradition. So even though I may feel that the Orthodox church buildings ultimately “belong” under the jurisdiction of what I know as the true Roman Church, I can see that it is certainly following the ancient, holy, and true faith of the Apostles.

Almost none of that is true when I see a Reformed church building. It may or may not have validly done sacraments. For that matter, it may or may not be apostolic. Its doctrines may be almost blue-blooded Catholic, or they may be closer to Joel Olsteen hogwash.

At the end of the day, what is a Lutheran/Evangelical Catholic/Reformed Christian?

I don’t really expect an answer, this is just my musings on the difficulties our Churches face if we are to visibly and temporally achieve the unity Christ desired.
 
NovusAugustus said:
I know this is a bit of a rant but I have been reading this section of CAF for a while and it is so frustrating. Obviously we would love a truly ecumenical Church, but how can this be done when you have beautiful, traditional, episcopal, reformed Churches that are considered on a par with strange modern Lutheran churches with priestesses, once-a-month communion and so on.
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You are more charitable than I am!

Our poor church is a mess. We claim Sola Scripture, but we can’t read the Bible without second guessing it. We claim Sola Fide, but we push a new works righteousness of environmentalism and superficial inclusiveness. We claim Sola Gratia but deem God’s gifts as insufficient and we change them.

Certainly, not all Lutheran churches are as such, and God has provided for us in His mercy - for we deserve much worse.
 
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