Catholic Grandma vs Pagan Grandma

[RazzsMom]

My son and his wife have been married for five years. I raised my son in the Catholic Church and he went to Catholic schools until high school. He then attended and graduated from a small public school. He is now 31. His wife never graduated HS. They have a son (my first grandchild) who is 20 months old. He has never been Baptized as Son quit attending Church after he moved away from home. Son does not have any hatred toward the faith - I think he just fell away and now finds it difficult to pick back up and attend after being gone so long.

When Son and Daughter-in-Law married, they did go to Pre-Cana and were married in the Church. I do not think either of them has attended Church since then. DIL is not Baptized at all. Her family has no religion except for her grandmother who is a very strict Baptist, which apparently turns everyone else “off” religion.

Here is the problem: I am so in love with my faith – I even recently became an Associate with the Sisters of St. Francis. I have tried to talk to Son about Baptizing my grandson a few times and he always says he just doesn’t have time right now to attend the classes required for the parents. (He goes to college three nights a week.) Now they are expecting another baby boy in January.

DIL’s mother is a self-professed “pagan”. She has a blog that talks about pagaism, has music links to pagan music, she wears a pentacle and her email address has a paganism name. She and her “husband” are not legally married, but had a pagan ritual “marriage”. (A “handbinding” I think it is called?)

She is very out and proud of her “religion” and calls herself a “crone” which is not (as I discovered) a bad term in paganism, rather one that means a person of wisdom.

Here is my question to everyone: I like Pagan Grandma a lot, but I worry about her influences on our grandchildren. I would like to be sure that as they grow up, they are not overly influenced by her beliefs. How do you think I can counteract her without creating a problem for my Son? Pagan Granny sees our grandson a lot more then I do. She does not work outside the home and I do.

I have bought Catholic children’s books and a Bibles for Grandson. I told Son I would take Grandson to Church when he is older if he and DIL don’t want to go.

How would all of you try to keep the grandchildren away from paganism???

Thank you.

 

[Publisher]

Simple answer…You can’t keep them away from paganism because the other grandparents have as much right to share their beliefs with the grandchildren as you do.

Your concern for their eternal welfare is commendable…however your son and his in-laws may not share your belief in the matter…and it is your son and DIL’s decision and responsibility to make the religious choice for their children until they are able to make the decisions themselves.

If your son and DIL choose to allow the “pagan grandparents” to share their beliefs…but find no time to instruct them in your beliefs…that IS their choice.

You can pray for them and show kindness and mercy and love them…place them in God’s hands. Unless you wish to cause a deeper rift and turn them off to any possibility of your continuing influence…no matter if it is marginal or not…do not seek to separate your grandchildren from their other grandparents…no matter how nobel and loving your efforts are to do so…it will backfire.

 

[Noesis]

The more effort you make in trying to control the circumstances of your grandchild’s life, so that they will cause him to be a Catholic, the more you will simultaneously push your son away from you. You cannot do this, because it will cause you great pain, and it is utterly self-defeating.

What is most important, is that you help to foster great love between your son and his wife; and that you are available to them as a parent, to offer support when they decide that it is needed.

 

[Barbkw]

“When Son and Daughter-in-Law married, they did go to Pre-Cana and were married in the Church.”

Continue to pray for your son’s return to the Sacraments. Be prepared that it may take mulitple years.

First generation female paganism is a proud addiction to self, generally begun as a release from sexual norms outside of marriage, most pagan women are radically in favor of abortion, and they have a distrust of men and a need to be dominate in male/female relationships.

The goddesses who remain - Mother Earth and generally all of the Greek / Celtic females - are viewed as their Deity.

Pagan priestessess often use bastardized forms of sacramental worship services from the Church. Most pagans are vehemently anti-Catholic, awash in the hypocrisy of the Church and the persecution of “witches” and pagan people.

Pagan women however, do not view their militant approval of abortion as the holocaust of their making.

 

[JHow]

… DIL is not Baptized at all. Her family has no religion except for her grandmother who is a very strict Baptist, which apparently turns everyone else “off” religion…

I realize this is not your opinion (OP), but how convenient for everyone else to blame the pious grandmother. “She’s a strict Baptist - that’s why I don’t like religion!”

 

[Publisher]

“When Son and Daughter-in-Law married, they did go to Pre-Cana and were married in the Church.”

Continue to pray for your son’s return to the Sacraments. Be prepared that it may take mulitple years.

First generation female paganism is a proud addiction to self, generally begun as a release from sexual norms outside of marriage, most pagan women are radically in favor of abortion, and they have a distrust of men and a need to be dominate in male/female relationships.

The goddesses who remain - Mother Earth and generally all of the Greek / Celtic females - are viewed as their Deity.

Pagan priestessess often use bastardized forms of sacramental worship services from the Church. Most pagans are vehemently anti-Catholic, awash in the hypocrisy of the Church and the persecution of “witches” and pagan people.

Pagan women however, do not view their militant approval of abortion as the holocaust of their making.

I think some of what you say has merit…Neo-paganism IS a reaction to Christianity…Christian history is rife with a “darker image” prevailing for much of it’s history…a history that many “suffered” from the church’s hands…right or wrong…“Neo-Paganism” is the “child” of the Christian church…in many ways Neo-paganism IS a reaction against the church…but there are many devout Neo-pagans that are now second and third generation and have no ties to Christianity.

I have two very good friends who are second and third generation Wiccans…their rituals bear little resemblance to Catholic ritual.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Saint Ambrose once told Saint Monica, re Saint Augustine, that she must talk to God about her son more and to her son about God less.

It not only worked to bring Saint Augustine back to the Faith, but made her a saint also.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

My son and his wife have been married for five years. I raised my son in the Catholic Church and he went to Catholic schools until high school. He then attended and graduated from a small public school. He is now 31. His wife never graduated HS. They have a son (my first grandchild) who is 20 months old. He has never been Baptized as Son quit attending Church after he moved away from home. Son does not have any hatred toward the faith - I think he just fell away and now finds it difficult to pick back up and attend after being gone so long.

When Son and Daughter-in-Law married, they did go to Pre-Cana and were married in the Church. I do not think either of them has attended Church since then. DIL is not Baptized at all. Her family has no religion except for her grandmother who is a very strict Baptist, which apparently turns everyone else “off” religion.

Here is the problem: I am so in love with my faith – I even recently became an Associate with the Sisters of St. Francis. I have tried to talk to Son about Baptizing my grandson a few times and he always says he just doesn’t have time right now to attend the classes required for the parents. (He goes to college three nights a week.) Now they are expecting another baby boy in January.

DIL’s mother is a self-professed “pagan”. She has a blog that talks about pagaism, has music links to pagan music, she wears a pentacle and her email address has a paganism name. She and her “husband” are not legally married, but had a pagan ritual “marriage”. (A “handbinding” I think it is called?)

She is very out and proud of her “religion” and calls herself a “crone” which is not (as I discovered) a bad term in paganism, rather one that means a person of wisdom.

Here is my question to everyone: I like Pagan Grandma a lot, but I worry about her influences on our grandchildren. I would like to be sure that as they grow up, they are not overly influenced by her beliefs. How do you think I can counteract her without creating a problem for my Son? Pagan Granny sees our grandson a lot more then I do. She does not work outside the home and I do.

I have bought Catholic children’s books and a Bibles for Grandson. I told Son I would take Grandson to Church when he is older if he and DIL don’t want to go.

How would all of you try to keep the grandchildren away from paganism???

Thank you.

If DIL is not baptized at all, how did they get married in the Church?

 

[ManOnFire]

If I were you, I’d tell my son that sooner or later, all people must decide to choose between feelgoodism and the Truth (Church’s rules for behavior). Like the rules of any game, the rules are designed to create order and understanding. Imagine any game where the rules were thrown out and it was a free-for-all, where anyone could do whatever they wanted on the field. Chaos would ensue. That’s where we’re at now. People want to believe whatever makes them feel good, powerful, pleasureful, WITHOUT those nagging restrictions or rules. Everyone wants the good, without the bad. It’s only natural to want to feel this way, but chaos must soon ensue when enough independent individualists believe there should be no restrictions on behavior. This is where society has lost all common sense. The game of modern life has lost all it’s rules. And people somehow believe that things are going to get better… Then they blame it on a lack of money… Once they get money and see that it won’t satisfy either, then on to the next theory… Until finally… Truth.

 

[StTommyMore]

I realize this is not your opinion (OP), but how convenient for everyone else to blame the pious grandmother. “She’s a strict Baptist - that’s why I don’t like religion!”

This is actually somewhat believable. I used to attend a Baptist church, and the most devout tend to be judgmental. I was one of them.

 

[kenofken]

“When Son and Daughter-in-Law married, they did go to Pre-Cana and were married in the Church.”

Continue to pray for your son’s return to the Sacraments. Be prepared that it may take mulitple years.

First generation female paganism is a proud addiction to self, generally begun as a release from sexual norms outside of marriage, most pagan women are radically in favor of abortion, and they have a distrust of men and a need to be dominate in male/female relationships.

The goddesses who remain - Mother Earth and generally all of the Greek / Celtic females - are viewed as their Deity.

Pagan priestessess often use bastardized forms of sacramental worship services from the Church. Most pagans are vehemently anti-Catholic, awash in the hypocrisy of the Church and the persecution of “witches” and pagan people.

Pagan women however, do not view their militant approval of abortion as the holocaust of their making.

Have you ever attended a pagan ritual or even known a real pagan person or do you “know” all this from thirdhand sources like “spiritual warfare” websites? Why would someone in today’s America need to become pagan to give themselves permission for sex outside of marriage? It is virtually 100% the norm in secular society and hardly raises an eyebrow even within most Catholic circles. For that matter, a great many Catholic women are pro-choice on the abortion question. I’ve been in the pagan scene for a number of years and I just don’t see a lot of “militancy”" around the abortion issue. You’ll find a lot more who are militant about environmental issues, animal welfare etc. Nor have I seen the anti-male sentiment you speak of. There are certain rituals and groups which are primarily or exlusively female, but also some geared for men. Most are open to both, and I’ve enjoyed a very warm reception from most women in the community, who see the need for a true balance in male and female energies in the world.

What is it about our rituals (based on your experience), consists of “bastardized” Church worship? I grew up Catholic, was an altar server for several years, and I don’t remember Catholic priests casting a circle, calling the quarters, drawing down the moon or pretty much anything else I’ve ever seen in a pagan ritual. I suppose we have bells and incense and chalices in common, but I can assure you all of those things well predate the Church (and modern paganism). Your notions of how we relate to deity are a whole other matter which would require a separate post. Suffice it to say that they’re about as accurate as the protestant idea that Catholics “worship” Mary and the saints.

Are pagans “anti-Catholic”? Some are, to be sure, but no more so than the general populace or sectors of protestantism. Some had negative experiences growing up with Catholicism. Some, like the general public, misunderstand aspects of Catholicism. Many of us do get soured on the faith in part by the constant ignorance and people calling us “satanists” etc.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

With some similar cases I have a mass said for all concerned from time to time.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

What kind of world do we live in where we have to worry about pagan grandmas? Wow. Usually the worst thing we have to be concerned about is grandma and grandpa spoiling the grandkids too much, feeding them too many sweets or pulling quarters out of their ears. Now we have to worry about eye of newt, pentagrams, pictures of Aleister Crowley and the lock ness monster, Dio music, and them showing “The Wicker Man” to little Billy while we’re at work? Wow…

 

[kenofken]

What kind of world do we live in where we have to worry about pagan grandmas? Wow. Usually the worst thing we have to be concerned about is grandma and grandpa spoiling the grandkids too much, feeding them too many sweets or pulling quarters out of their ears. Now we have to worry about eye of newt, pentagrams, pictures of Aleister Crowley and the lock ness monster, Dio music, and them showing “The Wicker Man” to little Billy while we’re at work? Wow…

Imagine having old Aleister himself as your grandfather! “Grandpa, tell me some more stories about the Abbey of Thelema…is it true Mussolini kicked you out of Italy!”

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

LOL…I remember in the early 70’s when Jimmy Page bought Crowley’s old mansion where Crowley believed he saw the Loch Ness Monster and conducted seances and all that feldercarb. Jimmy Page must’ve really been on heroin at that point to want to buy a house that Crowley, a total nutjob, lived in for years! Maybe it influenced his dark overtones in Dazed and Confused! I hate witchcraft and Crowley but God I love Jimmy Page!

Imagine having old Aleister himself as your grandfather! “Grandpa, tell me some more stories about the Abbey of Thelema…is it true Mussolini kicked you out of Italy!”

 

[kenofken]

LOL…I remember in the early 70’s when Jimmy Page bought Crowley’s old mansion where Crowley believed he saw the Loch Ness Monster and conducted seances and all that feldercarb. Jimmy Page must’ve really been on heroin at that point to want to buy a house that Crowley, a total nutjob, lived in for years! Maybe it influenced his dark overtones in Dazed and Confused! I hate witchcraft and Crowley but God I love Jimmy Page!

There was a certain fascination with Crowley among the rock crowd in the 60s and 70s. Being associated with him in some way was a quick bit of street cred for British artists. I recall he is on the sgt. pepper cover and page aspired to live like him for a time. I think the house is called Boleskine or something to that effect. Probably a very nice place. Crowley was seriously wealthy for the first part of his life, though he burned through money like a Kuwaiti prince.

 

[Dymphna82]

“When Son and Daughter-in-Law married, they did go to Pre-Cana and were married in the Church.”

Continue to pray for your son’s return to the Sacraments. Be prepared that it may take mulitple years.

First generation female paganism is a proud addiction to self, generally begun as a release from sexual norms outside of marriage, most pagan women are radically in favor of abortion, and they have a distrust of men and a need to be dominate in male/female relationships.

The goddesses who remain - Mother Earth and generally all of the Greek / Celtic females - are viewed as their Deity.

Pagan priestessess often use bastardized forms of sacramental worship services from the Church. Most pagans are vehemently anti-Catholic, awash in the hypocrisy of the Church and the persecution of “witches” and pagan people.

Pagan women however, do not view their militant approval of abortion as the holocaust of their making.

That is true and untrue in my experience. There are no pagan sacramental services, actually. What is eaten and drunken is never considered to be a part of the body of a god, goddess or even half god. It’s really more of an offering to the gods, and then everyone feasts on the remainder. Food might be blessed but never considered a sacrament.

Pagans worship any pantheon. Not limited to Celtic and Greek. There are some chants that most circles know very well, where they chant the names of important Egyptian, Greek, Hindu and Sumerian goddesses.

(Wow, the more I look back on it, the more stupid I feel.)

I know Pagan women who are very much for abortion and birth control and everything. At the same time, it’s a fertility religion and some choose to recognize the fact that they’re not honoring their power as a woman to create life.

But, yeah, the religion started to gain momentum in the 60’s, so you’re going to have aging hippies in it, teaching others. And with a great focus on female empowerment, you’re going to have feminism. And with feminism, you’re going to have lesbians. And with lesbians, you’re going to have a strong GBLT community. Which doesn’t make any sense because at least Wicca is supposed to have a duality of god and goddess, who are mates, who created the universe. Some will argue that there were gay gods and goddesses but with the exception of Greek, it was uncommon, and in many cultures, homosexual acts were only used for the purpose of rape.

 

[Dymphna82]

Have you ever attended a pagan ritual or even known a real pagan person or do you “know” all this from thirdhand sources like “spiritual warfare” websites? Why would someone in today’s America need to become pagan to give themselves permission for sex outside of marriage? It is virtually 100% the norm in secular society and hardly raises an eyebrow even within most Catholic circles. For that matter, a great many Catholic women are pro-choice on the abortion question. I’ve been in the pagan scene for a number of years and I just don’t see a lot of “militancy”" around the abortion issue. You’ll find a lot more who are militant about environmental issues, animal welfare etc. Nor have I seen the anti-male sentiment you speak of. There are certain rituals and groups which are primarily or exlusively female, but also some geared for men. Most are open to both, and I’ve enjoyed a very warm reception from most women in the community, who see the need for a true balance in male and female energies in the world.

(snip)

Are pagans “anti-Catholic”? Some are, to be sure, but no more so than the general populace or sectors of protestantism. Some had negative experiences growing up with Catholicism. Some, like the general public, misunderstand aspects of Catholicism. Many of us do get soured on the faith in part by the constant ignorance and people calling us “satanists” etc.

It is true that nobody needs much of an excuse to have sex out of marriage. However, you cannot deny that the Charge of the Goddess encourages people to have sex. Sure, Wiccans can makeup their own minds and there are celibate Wiccans, but I’ve known a lot of people who find those parts of the religion exciting.

There is also the Great Rite, which is a part of ritual where the High Priest and the High Priestess actually have sex. In the rituals I’ve been in, we had a symbolic Great Rite where the ceremonial dagger was put into the chalice. I would have never and am glad I never participated in such a ritual, although I used to think I would someday try it if I became involved with a nice Pagan man.

The whole cycle of the year and the creation of the creatures on earth depends on the lord and lady gettin it on.

And that is a complete contrast to Catholicism, where there was no sex in the creation story, and Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary.

And i don’t think a lot o people become Wiccan because they are anti-Catholic, persay. i wasn’t anti-Catholic. I just felt devoid of God. However, 90% of the Wiccan books I’ve read begin with some prologue about how much Christianity hates witches. After a while, it made me start to believe it, and I was afraid to talk to most people about it. And I argued and debated with Christians online all of the time. It took me a few years to learn how to respect Christianity as much as I respected Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism and the rest.

Meanwhile, there are Pagan religions that don’t have witchcraft or divination, and they think Wicca is loads of ridiculous. I find it ridiculous too now. I mean, how do people worship an Egyptian god, then turn around, start reading runes, then turn around again and do Native American chants, then name themselves something like LadySilverbear, because bear is their totem?

 

[Dymphna82]

As for you, Razz. This is all I can tell you. There is no way you can directly stop your grandchild from becoming interested.

I know that I used to hear stories about my grandmother and my greatgrandparents seeing ghosts. And about there being a poltergeist in my last house before i was born. And I once noticed that my father had a tarot deck(which he never used again) on the kitchen counter in my grandma’s place, and when I reached for it out of curiosity, my grandmother told me, “Don’t you touch that.”

I still led myself down that path, and have at least 7 decks in my collection. And I had a majorly depressing life but I’m back to Christ now.

But I don’t want you to worry, GrannyRazz. You have to remember, we all have freewill. The last two High Priestesses I worked closely with had two sons and a daughter and son.

The one with two sons, the youngest one follows her everywhere and wants to be a priest. He’s only 10, poor child, and he already knows the basics. The eldest son thinks Wicca is a bunch of nonsense and became an Atheist. The one with the son and daughter, the daughter is into it, but the son, I can tell, just thinks his mom is batty. There’s also the probability of a child becoming a Universalist/Spiritualist sort.

Talking about religion constantly can interest some but turn others off. What I know is that kids remember most about their grandmothers is how loving they are/were. What I know about my coming back to Christianity is that it would have taken me longer to come back to Christianity if I didn’t have some Christian friends who were willing to be nonjudgmental about my Pagan beliefs and pray for me on their own.

I do think you need to spend more time with your grandkid. And rather than try to teach the Bible or drag him to Church, casually mention how kind God has been to you today. If it makes you happy, they’ll remember it’s a source of happiness. Unless your kids have some restraint on the other granny, I’m sure he’ll want to take him to the park and talk about the power of nature.

 

[Publisher]

That is true and untrue in my experience. There are no pagan sacramental services, actually. What is eaten and drunken is never considered to be a part of the body of a god, goddess or even half god. It’s really more of an offering to the gods, and then everyone feasts on the remainder. Food might be blessed but never considered a sacrament.

Pagans worship any pantheon. Not limited to Celtic and Greek. There are some chants that most circles know very well, where they chant the names of important Egyptian, Greek, Hindu and Sumerian goddesses.

(Wow, the more I look back on it, the more stupid I feel.)

I know Pagan women who are very much for abortion and birth control and everything. At the same time, it’s a fertility religion and some choose to recognize the fact that they’re not honoring their power as a woman to create life.

But, yeah, the religion started to gain momentum in the 60’s, so you’re going to have aging hippies in it, teaching others. And with a great focus on female empowerment, you’re going to have feminism. And with feminism, you’re going to have lesbians. And with lesbians, you’re going to have a strong GBLT community. Which doesn’t make any sense because at least Wicca is supposed to have a duality of god and goddess, who are mates, who created the universe. Some will argue that there were gay gods and goddesses but with the exception of Greek, it was uncommon, and in many cultures, homosexual acts were only used for the purpose of rape.

Actually, the sharing of the “cakes and ale”…or “wine and cakes” IS eating of the bounty and essence of the God and Goddess…each item is sacred…they share a “sacramental” vision that Friends share…they would not call it “sacramental” as that is a “Christian” term and carries with it “Christian meaning”…but the essence is the same…to “ground oneself back with the Earth after ritual”…the “cakes and ale” are used as an “anchor” back to the “Material Plain” and close off “psychic/spiritual centers”…the very “flesh and blood” of Deity is used to do this…the things of the Earth are sacred to Wiccans and Pagans…They would see their “cakes and ale” as “counterparts” to the eucharist…Conservative Xians however would not entertaine such an idea…to have ANYTHING in common with Pagan/Wiccan practice.