Catholic Grandma vs Pagan Grandma

[Dymphna82]

I guess my perspective is just different in those regards. To me, the Eucharist is a symbol of our salvation. There’s no salvation in Wicca because there’s no belief in sin. There’s only the threefold law, which each individual is responsible for.

That’s why I can’t compare it to the Eucharist at all.

 

[StTommyMore]

Actually, the sharing of the “cakes and ale”…or “wine and cakes” IS eating of the bounty and essence of the God and Goddess…each item is sacred…they share a “sacramental” vision that Friends share…they would not call it “sacramental” as that is a “Christian” term and carries with it “Christian meaning”…but the essence is the same…to “ground oneself back with the Earth after ritual”…the “cakes and ale” are used as an “anchor” back to the “Material Plain” and close off “psychic/spiritual centers”…the very “flesh and blood” of Deity is used to do this…the things of the Earth are sacred to Wiccans and Pagans…They would see their “cakes and ale” as “counterparts” to the eucharist…Conservative Xians however would not entertaine such an idea…to have ANYTHING in common with Pagan/Wiccan practice.

“Cakes and ale” is little more than a mockery of the true worship, due the Most High God, that is to receive His Boby, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of the Lord in the Holy Eucharist.

 

[kenofken]

“Cakes and ale” is little more than a mockery of the true worship, due the Most High God, that is to receive His Boby, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of the Lord in the Holy Eucharist.

Your historical chauvanism is showing…the ancients would have considered your “true worship” to be a mockery of a “real” sacrifice to the gods!

 

[StTommyMore]

Your historical chauvanism is showing…the ancients would have considered your “true worship” to be a mockery of a “real” sacrifice to the gods!

Interesting, since the Eucharist came first. “Cakes and ale” are a European practice, and the thanksgiving votive offering, consisting of bread and wine (the Todah sacrifice) was in the practice of Israel since Leviticus, and there was a precedent for that since Melchezedek offered it with Abraham.

 

[tomarin]

I know Pagan women who are very much for abortion and birth control and everything. At the same time, it’s a fertility religion and some choose to recognize the fact that they’re not honoring their power as a woman to create life.

Cafeteria paganism, anyone?

 

[StTommyMore]

Cafeteria paganism, anyone?

I get your point, but the concept is foreign to paganism, as the whole thing is a do it yourself religion. Without some kind of hierarchy, there can be no “pagan orthodoxy”

 

[tomarin]

What kind of world do we live in where we have to worry about pagan grandmas? Wow. Usually the worst thing we have to be concerned about is grandma and grandpa spoiling the grandkids too much, feeding them too many sweets or pulling quarters out of their ears. Now we have to worry about eye of newt, pentagrams, pictures of Aleister Crowley and the lock ness monster, Dio music, and them showing “The Wicker Man” to little Billy while we’re at work? Wow…

Remember the scene from “The Wicker Man” where an old lady (can’t remember if it’s somebody’s grandmother or the school nurse) stuffs a toad into a kid’s mouth to cure her cold? That alone would make me wary of going to Pagan Grandma’s house.

 

[kenofken]

It is true that nobody needs much of an excuse to have sex out of marriage. However, you cannot deny that the Charge of the Goddess encourages people to have sex. Sure, Wiccans can makeup their own minds and there are celibate Wiccans, but I’ve known a lot of people who find those parts of the religion exciting.

There is also the Great Rite, which is a part of ritual where the High Priest and the High Priestess actually have sex. In the rituals I’ve been in, we had a symbolic Great Rite where the ceremonial dagger was put into the chalice. I would have never and am glad I never participated in such a ritual, although I used to think I would someday try it if I became involved with a nice Pagan man.

The whole cycle of the year and the creation of the creatures on earth depends on the lord and lady gettin it on.

And that is a complete contrast to Catholicism, where there was no sex in the creation story, and Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary.

And i don’t think a lot o people become Wiccan because they are anti-Catholic, persay. i wasn’t anti-Catholic. I just felt devoid of God. However, 90% of the Wiccan books I’ve read begin with some prologue about how much Christianity hates witches. After a while, it made me start to believe it, and I was afraid to talk to most people about it. And I argued and debated with Christians online all of the time. It took me a few years to learn how to respect Christianity as much as I respected Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism and the rest.

Meanwhile, there are Pagan religions that don’t have witchcraft or divination, and they think Wicca is loads of ridiculous. I find it ridiculous too now. I mean, how do people worship an Egyptian god, then turn around, start reading runes, then turn around again and do Native American chants, then name themselves something like LadySilverbear, because bear is their totem?

I don’t deny that we are a fertility based religion (which incidentally involves much more than sex) or that we are largely free of the hangups about it that Christianity has. That aspect does intrigue many people, and quite frankly, attracts a certain percentage (usually men) who come to us with the wrong idea in mind. But if that’s a person’s main interest in paganism, they’re going to get bored with it quite quickly. Most groups don’t do a literal Great Rite. Those who do usually involve a years-long relationship between priest and priestess. Many are married or handfasted couples. There is such a thing as sex magick, but anyone who truly knows what it’s about will tell you that it’s really more grueling labor than fun. There’s simply no inherent kinkiness in paganism that someone cannot find MUCH more easily in the workaday secular world. We have the full gamut of folks where this is concerned. Celibates. Regular vanilla monogamists and extreme perverts. I was a (moderate) pervert when I was Catholic, when I was a secular humanist, and still now as a pagan. One has little to do with the other.

The whole Christian/pagan dynamic is complex. Many, many Christians, especially Catholics and evangelicals, DO hate us. They make no bones about that. More than once on this site, I’ve had people openly fantasize about reinstating the death penalty for us, and nobody much calls them on it. People say things about our religions which would get them banned for life from this site if they said the same thing about, say, Jews. So it’s very hard for me sometimes to hold much respect for Christianity in turn, but I do try, every day. I try to give individuals the benefit of the doubt and a presumption of good will until they show me otherwise.

What you refer to in the last part is eclecticism - the blending of unrelated, and often incompatible, mythologies and traditions. That DOES get a bit silly with some folks, but you see little of it among those who have been around for a while and who earn the respect of the community.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

LOL! That was a trip. Weird. Seeing Christopher Lee would make me want to turn the boat around in itself!

Remember the scene from “The Wicker Man” where an old lady (can’t remember if it’s somebody’s grandmother or the school nurse) stuffs a toad into a kid’s mouth to cure her cold? That alone would make me wary of going to Pagan Grandma’s house.

 

[Publisher]

“Cakes and ale” is little more than a mockery of the true worship, due the Most High God, that is to receive His Boby, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of the Lord in the Holy Eucharist.

Since Wiccans and Pagans do not share your tradition…there is no mockery…the grain for the “cakes” is the very flesh of Deity…the grains of the Earth…“wine” or “ale” is the very blood of Deity…the blood and bounty of the Earth. To a Wiccan a Christians “mythology” meshes quite easily with theirs…to a Christain, no such comparison is likely to be made.

 

[StTommyMore]

Since Wiccans and Pagans do not share your tradition…there is no mockery…the grain for the “cakes” is the very flesh of Deity…the grains of the Earth…“wine” or “ale” is the very blood of Deity…the blood and bounty of the Earth. To a Wiccan a Christians “mythology” meshes quite easily with theirs…to a Christain, no such comparison is likely to be made.

You are incorrect. The rite was invented to mock the Eucharist, much as Samhain was moved to October 31st to detract from All Hallow’s Eve. The pagan powers are not foolish. They mock Catholic rites for a reason.

 

[Publisher]

You are incorrect. The rite was invented to mock the Eucharist, much as Samhain was moved to October 31st to detract from All Hallow’s Eve. The pagan powers are not foolish. They mock Catholic rites for a reason.

They do not mock your rites…they have their own with their own mythology…Christians claim they are mocked…Wiccans and Pagans believe the Ultimate is expresse in both rituals…Universal Truth is seen to exist between two different religious traditions…there is no mockery involved execpt in your personal beliefs.

 

[StTommyMore]

They do not mock your rites…they have their own with their own mythology…Christians claim they are mocked…Wiccans and Pagans believe the Ultimate is expresse in both rituals…Universal Truth is seen to exist between two different religious traditions…there is no mockery involved execpt in your personal beliefs.

You really are out of your depth here. The powers of darkness have rites that resemble Catholicism. Why? To discredit the true faith.

 

[Publisher]

You really are out of your depth here. The powers of darkness have rites that resemble Catholicism. Why? To discredit the true faith.

Unfortuneatly some Christians will not admit the similarities except to affirm they are counterfit “similarities” to confound humans and believes it to be"plan" from the “powers of darkness” to lead people away from the true faith…that is distinctly a Christian belief which Wiccans and Pagans do not share.in the “powers of darkness” as described by Christians…the “similarities” between the two speaks to the “commonality” two separate faiths have in discerning the Truth.

I’m not sure how this is “out of my depth” since I don’t seem to be the one seeking to impose Christian meanings upon Wiccan beliefs…

Didn’t some of the ECF’s believe that pagan belief was a “foreshadow” of Christ and his work?

Out of my “depth”? Dont’ think so friend.

 

[Publisher]

We live in a very pluralistic world and society. We exist along side other faith traditions…I do not agree with their mythology and understanding of Deity…however, I accept their beliefs as their beliefs…I do not seek to impose “Christian” understanding upon their beliefs…but seek to understand their beliefs through their mythology…whether I embrace it or not is another matter…I see to understand their beliefs throught their eyes and understanding…there is no other way to understand where they are coming from…

If I seek to impose my own mythology upon their mythology…especially if my mythology suggests that everyone else’s belief system is an abberation of some dark agency to lead them away from the “True God”…I never understand them…and circumvent any dialog that may happen between each of our repsective faith tradition that may lead to greater understanding.

 

[RazzsMom]

Dear Friends,
First may I apologize for not responding sooner. Somehow my account was blocked and I had to go through several channels to get the problem fixed.

Many of you had very interesting POV. Let me clarify a few things:
I do not “constantly” preach my religion to my children. If anything, I probably do not talk about it to either of my children, nor to my DIL, enough! I rarely mention religion, I never nag them to come to Church, etc. I do let them know that certain things are going on, especially if I am involved in it in some way. They know that their dad & I attend Mass and at what time. We will state to them something like, “We will be at your house right after church.” This way, the door is opened to them to say, “Hey, we will come with you”, if that would ever happen.
I do read to my grandson from a few Bible story books I have purchased for him. He is only 19 months old, so it is not really an issue yet about holding forth with him on church, faith, God or Jesus. I do tell him, “God loves you & so do I!” Or “Jesus loves you!” But he is much too young to know what I am saying just yet.
I mis-stated that my DIL was not baptized. She was baptized but never catechized in any faith. She never went to any church.
I do not think DIL and Son even know I have become a Franciscan Associate, so I do not want anyone to think I hold myself up as someone holy to try to make them feel ashamed. I will tell them about it at some time when it is the right time to talk about it.

 Someone mentioned I should try to see my grandson more.  Believe me....My husband and I see the kids and our grandson as much as is possible!  We live 15 miles from them and Pagan Granny lives 25 miles from them.  It is not distance as much as it is our schedules.  My husband works 6 days a week and drives 40 miles one way to his job.  Often his schedule is 12 hour days.  I work 5 days a week and usually a 9 hour or more day.  So we naturally have less free time to visit than a grandma who does not work outside the home.     

 Last of all, I do not want anyone to think I have a bad relationship with anyone - not DIL, Son, nor with Pagan Grandma.  We actually all get along fine.  When Son and DIL were married, (in the Church as I have said), Pagan Grandma and I each did a reading!

Now - some issues with Paganism have been brought up.  Let me expand on what I know about PG  (Pagan Grandma):  she is pro-abortion, pro-LGBT (her son is gay and "married"), a far left liberal (her own designation).  But she does not ever try to talk religion any time we are all together for any family function.  We all have a great time together actually! 

 I think the best advise someone here has given has been to have an occasional Mass said for them.  I am going to take that advise.  I am praying daily for Son, DIL and the grandchildren.  (Grandson is getting a baby brother in January.)  I will continue to make appropriate offers to take them to Church with us, to attend special events, etc.  They actually said they would like to come to Christmas Mass with us!  I am going to continue to buy Grandson all kinds of story books, but some of them will also be Catholic childrens' books.  I am going to live as gently, reverently,and in as Franciscan a way of life as I am able.  In other words - to live what I believe so that they may some day ask me how I live so happily. Then I can share with them it is because of my Savior that I am able to be the person they see.

 

[Mr_Skeptic]

I would like to be sure that as they grow up, they are not overly influenced by her beliefs.

Indeed.

A child’s mind is still forming and extremely vulnerable at that stage, subject to whatever the adults tell them. And with repetition, it becomes fully programmed in by the time they become adults.

My take - Show them the world and all that’s in it, and let them make up their own minds as they grow up.

 

[kenofken]

You are incorrect. The rite was invented to mock the Eucharist, much as Samhain was moved to October 31st to detract from All Hallow’s Eve. The pagan powers are not foolish. They mock Catholic rites for a reason.

Samhain, and festivals like it, have been celebrated around that time of year since before your savior was a twinkle in his Father’s eye. Cultures all over the world, including those only marginally influenced by Christianity, have such harvest festivals. It’s based on the cycle of the agricultural year which stretches back well over 10,000 years. All Hallow’s is a fairly minor event in the Christian calendar, and one which was contrived primarily to give converted pagans a new focus for old observations.

The written history of your own Church is plain on these points. The early missionaries speak in their accounts quite openly (and sensibly) about overlaying Christian rituals over old pagan rites to engage people in a new direction. If we invented a holy day just to ape your, why would we place the holiest day of our year alongside a Christian parallel which is a third-rate holy day, at most, in the tradition you suppose we “mock”? Have you even read a Wikipedia article about our traditions before pronouncing on our history and motives?

 

[Publisher]

Samhain, and festivals like it, have been celebrated around that time of year since before your savior was a twinkle in his Father’s eye. Cultures all over the world, including those only marginally influenced by Christianity, have such harvest festivals. It’s based on the cycle of the agricultural year which stretches back well over 10,000 years. All Hallow’s is a fairly minor event in the Christian calendar, and one which was contrived primarily to give converted pagans a new focus for old observations.

The written history of your own Church is plain on these points. The early missionaries speak in their accounts quite openly (and sensibly) about overlaying Christian rituals over old pagan rites to engage people in a new direction. If we invented a holy day just to ape your, why would we place the holiest day of our year alongside a Christian parallel which is a third-rate holy day, at most, in the tradition you suppose we “mock”? Have you even read a Wikipedia article about our traditions before pronouncing on our history and motives?

Friend you speak my mind…however while Wikepedia is a fair source…there are other historical sources to verify what you have written…some who participate on this board will dismiss your post since you reference “Wikepedia”…not always an accurate source…but usually has a lot of merit and good sensible accurate info…all besides the point as it’s "Wikipedia’ however for some.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Samhain, isn’t that what Michael Myers wrote in his old classroom in blood on the chalkboard in Halloween 2?

Samhain, and festivals like it, have been celebrated around that time of year since before your savior was a twinkle in his Father’s eye. Cultures all over the world, including those only marginally influenced by Christianity, have such harvest festivals. It’s based on the cycle of the agricultural year which stretches back well over 10,000 years. All Hallow’s is a fairly minor event in the Christian calendar, and one which was contrived primarily to give converted pagans a new focus for old observations.

The written history of your own Church is plain on these points. The early missionaries speak in their accounts quite openly (and sensibly) about overlaying Christian rituals over old pagan rites to engage people in a new direction. If we invented a holy day just to ape your, why would we place the holiest day of our year alongside a Christian parallel which is a third-rate holy day, at most, in the tradition you suppose we “mock”? Have you even read a Wikipedia article about our traditions before pronouncing on our history and motives?