Catholic Grandma vs Pagan Grandma

[StTommyMore]

Samhain, and festivals like it, have been celebrated around that time of year since before your savior was a twinkle in his Father’s eye. Cultures all over the world, including those only marginally influenced by Christianity, have such harvest festivals. It’s based on the cycle of the agricultural year which stretches back well over 10,000 years. All Hallow’s is a fairly minor event in the Christian calendar, and one which was contrived primarily to give converted pagans a new focus for old observations.

The written history of your own Church is plain on these points. The early missionaries speak in their accounts quite openly (and sensibly) about overlaying Christian rituals over old pagan rites to engage people in a new direction. If we invented a holy day just to ape your, why would we place the holiest day of our year alongside a Christian parallel which is a third-rate holy day, at most, in the tradition you suppose we “mock”? Have you even read a Wikipedia article about our traditions before pronouncing on our history and motives?

Umm you ignored what I said. It was celebrated, but the festival was moved to compete with all hallows eve. ANd to be truthful, NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE DRUIDS BELIEVED OR CELEBRATED BEYOND CONJECTURE. Modern druids are little more than disaffected hippies.

 

[IanCorrigan]

Umm you ignored what I said. It was celebrated, but the festival was moved to compete with all hallows eve.

This is just nonsense. The Coligny calendar, an archeological find from Celtic Gaul of approx. 100 bce, lists ‘Samonios’ as the festival of the beginning of the November month. This was 100s of years before Christianity arrived in Europe. The Irish month-name for November is still ‘Samhain’. The ‘Feast of Samhain’ is the first of November and, since Celtic days started at sunset, that means it begins at sunset on what we call ‘October 31st’. It was the Roman church that moved the feast of All Saints (All Hallows, as the Irish said) from May to the date of Samhain in an effort to Christianize the older holy day.
Where do people get this stuff…?

 

[NE_Catholic]

Indeed.

A child’s mind is still forming and extremely vulnerable at that stage, subject to whatever the adults tell them. And with repetition, it becomes fully programmed in by the time they become adults.

My take - Show them the world and all that’s in it, and let them make up their own minds as they grow up.

can we include Public Schools in your equation? Start giving all sides to everything?

 

[Dymphna82]

This is my understanding of Wicca and most Wiccan’s understanding of Wicca. Gardener studied history and archeology, and drew from practices of many different religions, as well as taking ideas from ceremonial magic, Freemasonry and many other things. Christianity is not so important t Pagans that they need to spend 2 hours, 20 times a year, mocking Christianity.

The Wiccan community does criticize Christianity but not during ritual.

Ken is quite right that many Christian holidays were placed on the same date as Pagan holidays. For two purposes. 1) To protect the first Christians from persecution, and 2) To later ease Pagans into converting to Christianity.

This is the truth and does not need to be denied. Afterall, the new cultures destroy the old. Let’s look at how secularism is destroying Christianity in America right now.

We do not need to deny or rewrite history here, folks. God’s word is strong enough on its own.

You really are out of your depth here. The powers of darkness have rites that resemble Catholicism. Why? To discredit the true faith.

There are maybe 1 million Wiccans in the United States and most of them live in NYC, Texas or California. There’s Islam, Judaism, Protestantism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shamanism, Animism, Sikhism, Baha’i, Confucianism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, Shintoism and Taoism. All religions that have more believers, all religions that you can argue are “trying to discredit the faith.” How many of these religions have something in common with Catholicism? Universal truths do not equate to an agenda. There are also numerous flood myths out there that do not have someone named Noah.

As for what Druids or any other Pagans believe, they do their best to draw from history. But considering how much history was destroyed by Christians when taking over, there’s a lot of holes that are there to be filled. I know that for a short time, I had a small interest in what Polish pagans practiced before Christianity came about and there wasn’t much of anything.

With all that said, I’m still glad I’ve returned to Christ.

Glad we helped you, Razz.

can we include Public Schools in your equation? Start giving all sides to everything?

I know Public School did nothing good for my mind.

 

[Tomster]

Unfortuneatly some Christians will not admit the similarities except to affirm they are counterfit “similarities” to confound humans and believes it to be"plan" from the “powers of darkness” to lead people away from the true faith…that is distinctly a Christian belief which Wiccans and Pagans do not share.in the “powers of darkness” as described by Christians…the “similarities” between the two speaks to the “commonality” two separate faiths have in discerning the Truth.

I’m not sure how this is “out of my depth” since I don’t seem to be the one seeking to impose Christian meanings upon Wiccan beliefs…

Didn’t some of the ECF’s believe that pagan belief was a “foreshadow” of Christ and his work?

Out of my “depth”? Dont’ think so friend.

I know you are out of your depth and this is how I know it.

Nothing is expressed more often and more explicitly by the Roman Catholic Church in her various exorcisms and blessings than the idea that evil spirits abide in material things, from which they are driven out by the Church’s triumphant power of sanctifying and consecrating the visible elements which are the basis of human life. The human body itself may be the dwelling of an evil spirit: this might be called the silent occupation of this earth by Satan, a thing full of mystery and independent in its origin of man’s consent to Satan’s evil suggestions. But there is also the more manifest presence of these dark beings. It would be temerarious to belittle what the early Fathers said of the power of the demons in the pagan temples, in the idols, in the groves and caverns where heathen rites were performed. The demons were loud in their utterances through the mouths of the idols, and many are the incidents in early Church history which prove that the pagan nations were accustomed to exhibitions of unseen powers which could never be considered as powers of light. Then we have, through all the centuries of Christian spiritual warfare, most authentic records of manifest activities of the demons. The servants of God are persecuted by fierce powers, visibly, physically, in open daylight, as it were. The best known case in modern hagiography is the persecution which the holy Cure d’Ars suffered in his body from his spiritual adversaries.

You are out of your league on this one!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Grandma got run over by a reindeer will have to be replaced with grandma got cursed from a hostile druid this Christmas!

 

[Publisher]

I know you are out of your depth and this is how I know it.

Nothing is expressed more often and more explicitly by the Roman Catholic Church in her various exorcisms and blessings than the idea that evil spirits abide in material things, from which they are driven out by the Church’s triumphant power of sanctifying and consecrating the visible elements which are the basis of human life. The human body itself may be the dwelling of an evil spirit: this might be called the silent occupation of this earth by Satan, a thing full of mystery and independent in its origin of man’s consent to Satan’s evil suggestions. But there is also the more manifest presence of these dark beings. It would be temerarious to belittle what the early Fathers said of the power of the demons in the pagan temples, in the idols, in the groves and caverns where heathen rites were performed. The demons were loud in their utterances through the mouths of the idols, and many are the incidents in early Church history which prove that the pagan nations were accustomed to exhibitions of unseen powers which could never be considered as powers of light. Then we have, through all the centuries of Christian spiritual warfare, most authentic records of manifest activities of the demons. The servants of God are persecuted by fierce powers, visibly, physically, in open daylight, as it were. The best known case in modern hagiography is the persecution which the holy Cure d’Ars suffered in his body from his spiritual adversaries.

You are out of your league on this one!

Peace to you friend.

 

[Publisher]

Grandma got run over by a reindeer will have to be replaced with grandma got cursed from a hostile druid this Christmas!

I love “Grandma got run over by a reindeer”!!

 

[Tomster]

They do not mock your rites…they have their own with their own mythology…Christians claim they are mocked…Wiccans and Pagans believe the Ultimate is expresse in both rituals…Universal Truth is seen to exist between two different religious traditions…there is no mockery involved execpt in your personal beliefs.

Pick up your Bible and read it if you would please.

The Christians of Corinth, surrounded as they were by pagans and idolaters, many of them their own friends and relatives, had many difficulties to contend with, and not the least among them was the question of meats which had been offered to idols. St. Paul gives them some practical advice on the matter in the eighth and tenth chapters of his first epistle to them. Evidently they must not take part in the sacrificial banquets of the pagans; this would be equivalent to the sin of idolatry. The interest of the matter from our point of view lies in the reason which St. Paul gives for prohibiting their attendance at the sacrificial banquets of the pagans. It was the belief of the pagans that by partaking of the sacrificial gifts they were put in communion with the divinity - in truth, as St. Paul rather sardonically remarks, “with devils.” How then, St. Paul asks, can Christians dare to take part in these banquets, when in the Eucharist they have a sacrificial banquet wherein they are made partakers of the body and blood of Christ?

 

[Tomster]

Peace to you friend.

Et cum Spiritu tuo. And may you find your way home to Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church, where you too will be able to partake in the one, true and eternal sacrifice. The Sacrifice of Holy Mass.

 

[Publisher]

Pick up your Bible and read it if you would please.

The Christians of Corinth, surrounded as they were by pagans and idolaters, many of them their own friends and relatives, had many difficulties to contend with, and not the least among them was the question of meats which had been offered to idols. St. Paul gives them some practical advice on the matter in the eighth and tenth chapters of his first epistle to them. Evidently they must not take part in the sacrificial banquets of the pagans; this would be equivalent to the sin of idolatry. The interest of the matter from our point of view lies in the reason which St. Paul gives for prohibiting their attendance at the sacrificial banquets of the pagans. It was the belief of the pagans that by partaking of the sacrificial gifts they were put in communion with the divinity - in truth, as St. Paul rather sardonically remarks, “with devils.” How then, St. Paul asks, can Christians dare to take part in these banquets, when in the Eucharist they have a sacrificial banquet wherein they are made partakers of the body and blood of Christ?

Are we discussing participating in Wiccan rituals vs Christian rituals…or were we discussing that the Neo-Pagan rituals are not based on Catholic belief in any way shape or form but upon a universal archtype recongnized by many faith traditions…they just have similar ritual tools, myth, and historical development…pagan/Celitc sacred days…which in many cases coorespond to a Christian feast day…predated any “Christian” notion of ritual and belief.

Modern Neo-pagans who are educated concerning their faith realize modern Wicca, Druidism, Asatru, Egyptian and Greek “traditions” are reconstructionist…Paganism does not base their beliefs on so called “revealed truths”…but on the myths and cycles of the Earth and moon to determine what mythology best expresses their tradition.

Paul also wrote that meat offered to idols means nothing to some…but to care for the “weaker” brother and not offend by scandalizing their “baby faith”. In 1Cor 10 Paul wants Christians to not be worried over such things…but we should be tender to our brothers…if they’re offended…then don’t offend them…buy if we see no problem with meat offered to idols…we have liberty.

1 Cor 10

23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 **No one should seek their own good, but the good of others. ** 25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”[f]

27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the** sake of conscience**. 29** I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for? **

31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God**. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble**, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved."

Pagan gods and sacrifices mean no more to me than “Christian” rituals…they point to anothers beliefs and I am to seek to be sensitive to the “weaker brother”.

You and I have different understandings as to the authority of scripture and it’s historical development and content.

If your understanding makes sense to you and you beleive you are bound to understand these scriptures through the teachings of your church…I rejoice with you…I do not accept your understandings of such matters.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Asatru? Never heard of that sucker…

Are we discussing participating in Wiccan rituals vs Christian rituals…or were we discussing that the Neo-Pagan rituals are not based on Catholic belief in any way shape or form but upon a universal archtype recongnized by many faith traditions…they just have similar ritual tools, myth, and historical development…pagan/Celitc sacred days…which in many cases coorespond to a Christian feast day…predated any “Christian” notion of ritual and belief.

Modern Neo-pagans who are educated concerning their faith realize modern Wicca, Druidism, Asatru, Egyptian and Greek “traditions” are reconstructionist…Paganism does not base their beliefs on so called “revealed truths”…but on the myths and cycles of the Earth and moon to determine what mythology best expresses their tradition.

Paul also wrote that meat offered to idols means nothing to some…but to care for the “weaker” brother and not offend by scandalizing their “baby faith”. In 1Cor 10 Paul wants Christians to not be worried over such things…but we should be tender to our brothers…if they’re offended…then don’t offend them…buy if we see no problem with meat offered to idols…we have liberty.

1 Cor 10

23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 **No one should seek their own good, but the good of others. ** 25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”[f]

27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the** sake of conscience**. 29** I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for? **

31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God**. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble**, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved."

Pagan gods and sacrifices mean no more to me than “Christian” rituals…they point to anothers beliefs and I am to seek to be sensitive to the “weaker brother”.

You and I have different understandings as to the authority of scripture and it’s historical development and content.

If your understanding makes sense to you and you beleive you are bound to understand these scriptures through the teachings of your church…I rejoice with you…I do not accept your understandings of such matters.

 

[Publisher]

Asatru? Never heard of that sucker…

Asatru is a “Neo-pagan” tradition using the Norse pantheon. You’ve probably seen men with a stylized deptiction “Thor’s Hammer” around their neck…they are followers of Asatru…also called “Odinism” by some.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hard to believe people buy into this stuff. To each his own. I think Thor belongs only in Marvel comics though I’m definitely an X-Men and Daredevil fan myself!

Asatru is a “Neo-pagan” tradition using the Norse pantheon. You’ve probably seen men with a stylized deptiction “Thor’s Hammer” around their neck…they are followers of Asatru…also called “Odinism” by some.

 

[RazzsMom]

Ken is quite right that many Christian holidays were placed on the same date as Pagan holidays. For two purposes. 1) To protect the first Christians from persecution, and 2) To later ease Pagans into converting to Christianity.

This is the truth and does not need to be denied. Afterall, the new cultures destroy the old. Let’s look at how secularism is destroying Christianity in America right now.

We do not need to deny or rewrite history here, folks. God’s word is strong enough on its own.

There are maybe 1 million Wiccans in the United States and most of them live in NYC, Texas or California. There’s Islam, Judaism, Protestantism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shamanism, Animism, Sikhism, Baha’i, Confucianism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, Shintoism and Taoism. All religions that have more believers, all religions that you can argue are “trying to discredit the faith.” How many of these religions have something in common with Catholicism? Universal truths do not equate to an agenda. There are also numerous flood myths out there that do not have someone named Noah.

As for what Druids or any other Pagans believe, they do their best to draw from history. But considering how much history was destroyed by Christians when taking over, there’s a lot of holes that are there to be filled. I know that for a short time, I had a small interest in what Polish pagans practiced before Christianity came about and there wasn’t much of anything.

With all that said, I’m still glad I’ve returned to Christ.

Glad we helped you, Razz.

I know Public School did nothing good for my mind.

Thank you - You have helped me! I am receiving quite a bit of help as well as education about Wiccan/Paganism. And I am always happy I returned to Christ from a life lived without any religion!

 

[kenofken]

Asatru is a “Neo-pagan” tradition using the Norse pantheon. You’ve probably seen men with a stylized deptiction “Thor’s Hammer” around their neck…they are followers of Asatru…also called “Odinism” by some.

They’re an interesting lot. They’re easy to spot at pagan festivals because many of them dress the part and look like the vikings of old. Many have that ancestry. They tend to run big - lots of guys 6’5 and more. They also tend to take their faith seriously. Many of them learn the nordic languages, and it’s one of the few old-line pagan religions in Europe which left a decent written record to follow. They also tend to be conservative/libertarian politically.

 

[Publisher]

They’re an interesting lot. They’re easy to spot at pagan festivals because many of them dress the part and look like the vikings of old. Many have that ancestry. They tend to run big - lots of guys 6’5 and more. They also tend to take their faith seriously. Many of them learn the nordic languages, and it’s one of the few old-line pagan religions in Europe which left a decent written record to follow. They also tend to be conservative/libertarian politically.

I am acquainted with an Asatru family…I’m not friends with them by any stretch of the imagination…I met them through my Wiccan friends with whom I’m very close.

From what I understand the Asatru are very family oriented…“clan” oriented so to speak. Family and children are a huge part of their lives and faith.

 

[Mr_Skeptic]

can we include Public Schools in your equation? Start giving all sides to everything?

We are talking about influencing a child’s mind with superstitious beliefs, right?

As to what is taught in public schools, I see nothing wrong with comparative religions curriculum.

 

[StTommyMore]

We are talking about influencing a child’s mind with superstitious beliefs, right?

As to what is taught in public schools, I see nothing wrong with comparative religions curriculum.

I would ask you to use more charitable language. While you may choose not to believe, teaching children about God is not “superstitious belief.” The two are miles apart in thought. Superstition is more along the lines of “If I do x, Y will happen.” Theism is a recognition that we are not in control, and things do are do not happen based on the active or providential will of God, at least in part. The Gospel Message is of course more than that, but is definitely not reducible to superstition.

 

[Mr_Skeptic]

I would ask you to use more charitable language.

Nothing in my remarks were uncivil. I express my own views on subjects in a civil manner. I will not, however, compromise the integrity of my views, in order to coddle everyone’s precious little feelings.

Deal with it.