Catholic Heretics and the Death Penalty

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Either the death penalty can still be given by the Roman Catholic church to obstinate heretics or it cannot.

Which ?
 
Mr. Newman, you appear to have confused ‘teachings of the Church on heresy’ with ‘penalties of the church for heresy.’ They are not the same thing.

The teaching of the church on heresy has not changed. Heresy is a grave sin. That has not changed.

I ask you again: Did the teachings of the Protestant churches change? Their civil authorities likewise executed heretics.

Please answer this.
 
Protestant churches once advocated the death penalty for heretics, which their civil governments enforced.

Did the Protestant teachings on heresy change, or can Protestants execute a person for obstinant heresy?
 
robert_newman said:
Either the death penalty can still be given by the Roman Catholic church to obstinate heretics or it cannot.

Which ?
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You have been given a link to the current code of canon law. Why would you ask amateurs who might give you an incorrect answer when you can go to the code itself?
 
Sir,

With respect, I am not arguing as a Protestant. I am arguing as a Christian person who, like yourself, wishes to get to the truth. Wishes to understand what the teaching of Roman Catholicism IS on this issue.

History is full of men and women being put to death as heretics of the Roman Catholic Church and being delivered to the secular authorities for execution. If these same canon laws are still in force then there is still, today, the potential for the Roman Catholic Church to condemn men and women to death for heresy.

Unless a change has been made.
 
  1. ‘Institutes of Public Ecclesiastical Law’ (2 volumes). Fr Marianus de Luca of the Jesuit Order, Professor of the Decretals at the Georgian University of Rome. It carries with it a Letter of Approval from Pope Leo X111 (printed on the paper covers of each volume).
  2. ‘De stabilitate et Progressu Dogmatis’ – Fr Alexius M Lepicier, Ord. Serv, BMV, Professor of Sacred Theology in the Pontifical College De Propaganda Fide. Prefaced with a letter from the Papal Secretary saying ‘the supreme Pontiff was immensely pleased with this work’.
Both works argue for the death penalty for Roman Catholic heretics. Both were published in the 20th century.

I can quote passages from them if you require.

Yours sincerely

R. Newman
 
With respect, Mr. Newman, you have been given the answers to your questions over and over.

To which you respond with generalizations, sweeping statements like this,** History is full of men and women being put to death as heretics of the Roman Catholic Church and being delivered to the secular authorities for execution. If these same canon laws are still in force then there is still, today, the potential for the Roman Catholic Church to condemn men and women to death for heresy**

First, history is not “full of men and women being put to death as heretics of the Roman Catholic Church and being delivered to the secular authorities for execution.” I believe that, all told, the highest number of people who were actually tried (by the civil authorities, not ‘the Roman Catholic Church’) was, for a period of some 7 centuries, fewer than 500 people for all the inquisitions. Whereas the men and women put to death as heretics by the Church of England (Anglican) alone during the time of Elizabeth I was at least that number–for a period of 45 years.

Not to mention the persecution and execution of Quakers by the protestant authorities both in England and in America, for heresy.

“The Protestant churches put men and women to death as heretics of their churches, delivering them to the secular authorities for execution, under their ecclesiastical laws. Unless they have changed their laws, the potential obviously exists then for Protestants to condemn Catholics to death for heresy.”

What do you say about that?
 
robert_newman said:
A simple question - is the death penalty still able to be given to Catholics who refuse to repent of a heresy ? The death penalty for heretics certainly seems to have been advocated by Roman Catholic canon lawyers as recently as the early 20th century. I have two publications from papally approved books which say that it’s lawfully that heretics should be executed. And these books (both of them published in the 20th century in Rome) had official approval of the papal office.

What’s the truth of this please ?
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Just to warn you, I dared bring this up a month or so ago and got suspended for it.
 
Well, what you have written convinces me that the churches have done one thing and Christianity teaches another.

I do not view Protestant churches or the Roman Catholic Church as more white than the other. I defend neither. The death of any person with the approval of church authorities is a disgrace.

But let me ask if you saw my last post. It clarifies the teachings of your church on the subject of Roman Catholic heretics and the death penalty. Shocking, isn’t it ?
 
Let me give you some information on your ‘Father Marianus’ assertion.

Even as late as 1901, a Father Marianus de Luca, S.J., Professor at the Gregorian University in Rome, published a book entitled “Institutes of Canon Law,” a book carrying the approbation of the Pope and of the Jesuits, in which he asserts that the Church possesses the power, which she ought to exercise, of extirpating
heretics.

That statement has gone the rounds of anti-Catholic writers, who repeat it one after another without bothering to verify the accusation. Yet it is a gross calumny. In his treatise on Canon Law, Father de Luca deals with the history of past legislation, subsequent variations, and present applications. In the historical section of his book he quotes from a 16th century author an obsolete law of the earlier Middle Ages declaring that the civil power has the right to punish those condemned for heresy by the Church.

It is to be noted that he expressly declares the law to be obsolete, and therefore not applicable in our era. Even then, the right to inflict physical penalties belonged, not to the Church, but to the civil power. The Church could only decide whether or not a given set of teachings was heretical. And the age was one in which the Catholic religion was officially acknowl*edged as the religion of the State, the whole population professing the Catholic religion.

In speaking of present Canon Law in these days when so many who profess to be Christians have never been Catholics, he declares that by the express law of the Church non-Catholics are exempted from the practical applications of her jurisdiction, and that there can be no punitive action against them by the State on religious grounds which no longer have political implications.

Father de Luca, therefore, did not advocate the “extirpation of here*tics,” and to continue propagating the assertion that he did is to continue propagating a falsehood.
 
Dear Caesar,

I respect these Roman Catholic people as much as any other Christian people. But I don’t think I will be suspended if I am asking respectfully about them.

Thanks
 
Dear Tantum Ergo,

Let me quote from BOTH publications (either in Latin or English as you prefer).

These books are both at the British Library in London. So I don’t know how you can say they are not advocating the death penalty for Roman Catholic heretics.

Perhaps you need me to quote them ?

Regards
 
As you see, your first source on Father Marianus has been shown to be based on a falsehood.

And what exactly does your second source have to say (Fr Alexius M Lepicier) may I ask?
 
Much as our Pope Benedict quoted from a 14th century source regarding the Muslims (he did not himself say anything derogatory, nor did he support the quoted material), Fr. Marianus quoted some material from an earlier source about an obsolete law, which he specifically stated had no bearing whatsoever.

For you to write that because he included a statement about an obsolete law regarding the death penalty that he then advocated the death penalty, in the 20th century no less, then is libelous.
 
Tantum Ergo,

Please wait a few minutes. I will quote directly from both publications in question. You can check them yourself.
 
I will gladly check them out but, if you please, in the morning; it is nearly midnight here and I have to work in the morning. I do request though that rather than quote a paragraph, that the entire document be given. Context is extremely important especially given that apparently the information you feel advocates the death penalty, for the 20th century, appears to have been taken out of context.

For instance, if one took only the words themselves that Benedict spoke in a recent speech, “what has Muslim to offer that is good” (without prefacing that he was ‘quoting’ and that he ‘did not agree’, as well as what that quote came from, and when, and by whom, one would easily say, “Benedict is dissing the Muslims” when in fact he was not.
 
Bonne nuit, Guten Abend, and TTFN (ta-ta for now); hope all have a good night.
 
Here is the first of the two promised Roman Catholic publications approved by the Papacy on this issue. And a quote as requested -
  1. ‘Institutes of Public Ecclesiastical Law’ (2 volumes). Fr Marianus de Luca of the Jesuit Order, Professor of the Decretals at the Georgian University of Rome. It carries with it a Letter of Approval from Pope Leo X111 (printed on the paper covers of each volume).
In Vol.1 Section 45 of the above book de Luca writes (and I quote)

‘In actual fact, the church at first dealt MORE leniently with heretics, excommunicating them, confiscating their property……till at last SHE WAS COMPELLED TO INFLICT THE EXTREME PENALTY……experience has shown that THERE IS NO OTHER REMEDY. But the church gradually advanced, and tried every means, first excommunication alone, then a pecuniary fine was added, then exile, FINALLY SHE WAS COMPELLED TO FALL BACK ON DEATH……If you imprison them or send them into exile they corrupt those near them with their words and those at a distance with their books… SO THE ONLY REMEDY IS TO SEND THEM SOON TO THEIR PLACE’ (Fr Marianus de Luca).

Regards
 
robert_newman said:
Well, what you have written convinces me that the churches have done one thing and Christianity teaches another.

I do not view Protestant churches or the Roman Catholic Church as more white than the other. I defend neither. The death of any person with the approval of church authorities is a disgrace.

But let me ask if you saw my last post. It clarifies the teachings of your church on the subject of Roman Catholic heretics and the death penalty. Shocking, isn’t it ?
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🙂 You know I am not very learned but someone did explain it to me this way. The thief that was also on a cross next to Jesus on His cross, the thief repented and Jesus promised him eternal life in heaven buuuutttt the thief still had to keep on dying on that cross and do you think that was punishment enough ? The thief still died. Right? Shocking? No
return from the desert
 
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