Catholic history is disturbing

[suupah]

I think the focus is too narrow; History is disturbing. Period. Look into the history of anything/any peoples. When your history goes back thousands of years, you are bound to find some skeletons.

People are sinful and the Church on earth is made up entirely of sinners. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit is steering this ship.

God bless you,

Kelly

there should be a distinction between and organization that claims to be the light of the world and the holy see and organizations that makes no claim to being holy.

 

[estesbob]

there should be a distinction between and organization that claims to be the light of the world and the holy see and organizations that makes no claim to being holy.

There should be distinction between an organization that is the light of the world and the flawed members of that organization.

 

[suupah]

Did you ever delve into Catholic history and found how it has, through its members, fulfilled the corporal and spiritual works of mercy among all peoples and in all eras, has brought Christ into the lives of untold millions, and have you ever taken the time to read about the lives of the saints? I find it really hard NOT to be really proud of my Catholic roots, corruption or not. And the “corruption and lust for power” you so glibly mention in one sweeping statement is a fantasy of yours. Go read some Catholic periodicals such as National Catholic Register or Our Sunday Visitor or St. Anthony Messenger or even National Catholic Reporter and check your misperception (and deception) at the door.

are you serious? o0pen your eyes. it is everywhere. THere has been a lot of good, but the high offices are/were/always will be corrupt and evil. Tis the nature of the way they are set up.

 

[estesbob]

are you serious? o0pen your eyes. it is everywhere. THere has been a lot of good, but the high offices are/were/always will be corrupt and evil. Tis the nature of the way they are set up.

Nonsense.

 

[CWBetts]

are you serious? o0pen your eyes. it is everywhere. THere has been a lot of good, but the high offices are/were/always will be corrupt and evil. Tis the nature of the way they are set up.

Are YOU sreious?? If I understand you right, then you are saying that Pope John Paul II was corrupt? Pope Pius XII, the loudest voice agsinst the Nazis in Europe during WWII was evil. Yes there have been dark periods in our history, but don’t let the bad blind you to the good!

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

suupah knows nothing about the Catholic church. If he gives us a chance we can explain it to him, but I don’t think he will. Some people will believe anything they hear.
The Catholic church still stands after 2,000 years. In spite of people who wanted and still want to destroy it. It will never happen. People who wanted to bury the church, the church ended up burying them instead. Sometimes people like suupah who exaggerate these lies of the church are very much in denial about it. Learn it first, then comment.

 

[a_priori]

Has anyone else delved into Catholic history and found the utter corruption and moral depravity shocking? I find it hard to really be proud of my Catholic roots when there is sooooooo much corruption in it. I wish it was one or two isolated incidences but corruption and lust for power seem to pervade every second of the Church’s history. And it continues to this day.

History is full of Catholics and Protestants doing nasty things to each other. People have been doing violence in the name of God all throughout recorded history. No one on the planet can trumpet a consistent, pristine, always-loving pedigree. All that matters is what we do now.

 

[valient_Lucy]

I think the focus is too narrow; History is disturbing. Period. Look into the history of anything/any peoples. When your history goes back thousands of years, you are bound to find some skeletons.

I second and third that.

 

[estesbob]

Hopefully those who condemn the imoerfections of the Church won’t similiarly condemn our Lord and Savior who found among the 12 men he chose to start his Church:

Two wanted to be put above the others

One denied him 3 times

On betrayed him

One doubted him

11 ran away and hid when he was seized.

 

[peary]

are you serious? o0pen your eyes. it is everywhere. THere has been a lot of good, but the high offices are/were/always will be corrupt and evil. Tis the nature of the way they are set up.

SHOW ME WHERE IT IS EVERYWHERE. I’m serious. Unfortunately, your viewpoint is biased, prejudicial and warped.

 

[rad]

Found some orthodox opinion on this subject…Part ,one

2 Th 2:3-4 “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”

Cardinal Manning, one of the strongest proponents of papal infallibility at Vatican I said: “The [Roman] Catholic Church is either the masterpiece of Satan or the Kingdom of the Son of God.” Okay this shouldnt be hard to figure out.

Roman Catholics are obliged to believe that the Roman Pope fills the office of Christ on earth. This would not be a problem if it simply meant that he is the representative of Christ. But Romanists actually teach that the Pope is Christ himself! And even outright say that he is God! This is total blasphemy. Its even worse than Arianism. The Papacy has destroyed 75% of the Christian Church. It attempted to bring everyone into submission to his divine status.

The claims to divinity got so ridiculous that it was popular to say that there are three incarnations of the Son of God: (1) in Jesus (2) in the Eucharist (3) in the Pope. This is not mere folk piety. It was a common idea amongst the clergy and was in fact taught in a text book that most seminarians used up to the 1940s:
“If Christ is indeed present in the Mystery of the Holy Eucharist, is His presence there complete?.. Apparently not He is present, but He is mute… Blessed be God for leaving us not with His dead, so to say, presence, but the living, active one… This other “half” of Christ is the one I am looking for in vain in the mute tabernacle… and what “half”!.. I almost said the most indispensable… After all, if the one whole “half” of Jesus Christ is not present in the Holy Eucharist, this means that it must be somewhere; it is in the Vatican, it is in the Pope!.. Here it is, the mystery of Christianity, this is the miracle of the real presence of the eternal Incarnation under two shrouds !.. That which Jesus Christ did not place under one of these shrouds He placed under the other; and one may have Him completely only if one knows how, in a fiery transport of heart, to move from the Eucharist to the Pope, and from the Pope to the Eucharist. Outside these two mysteries, which actually form one mystery, we have only the humbled Jesus Christ (as He Himself has established), Who is inadequate for the needs of both the individual souls as well as society as a whole, Who is not in a position even to defend Himself… If one should eliminate the Pope, Jesus Christ will be incomplete in the Eucharist… Therefore the Church which is more sensitive to the things Divine than we are, does not even know how to speak of the Pope! No words seem to be too powerful to define the mutual penetration as a result of which its head is formed from both Jesus Christ and the Pope, and which is both visible and invisible at the same time… Oh sweet feelings one experiences before the tabernacle and at the feet of the Pope!..” - Bishop of Laval, Professor Grand Seminaire, Mgr. Bougaud. (Smile, eveque de Laval [Bishop of Laval]), Le christianisme et les temps presents [Christianity and the Present Times]. Tome IV “L’Eglise”, Paris, Lib. Poussielgue freres, 1882; pp. 506-516 and ff. This book went through seven editions.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Roman Catholics are obliged to believe that the Roman Pope fills the office of Christ on earth. This would not be a problem if it simply meant that he is the representative of Christ. But Romanists actually teach that the Pope is Christ himself! And even outright say that he is God! This is total blasphemy. Its even worse than Arianism. The Papacy has destroyed 75% of the Christian Church. It attempted to bring everyone into submission to his divine status.

False. That is 100% untrue. We do NOT believe that the Pope is God.

 

[rad]

part 2
POPE NICHOLAS I: “the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man.” Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para.

POPE NICHOLAS I: “I am all in all and above all, so that God Himself, and I, the Vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do . . . Wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God. WHAT CAN YOU MAKE ME BUT GOD? Again, if prelates of the Church be called and counted of Constantine for gods, I then, being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods. Wherefore, no marvel if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea, with the precepts of Christ.” Decret. Par Distinct 96 Ch. 7 Edit Lugd. 1661.

POPE GREGORY IX: “Wherefore, if those things that I do, be said to be done not of man, but of God; what can you make me but God?”

POPE INNOCENT III: “It was said to me in the prophet: “I have set you over nations and over kingdoms, to pluck up and to break down, to destroy, and to overthrow, to build and to plant”(Jer. 1:10)…Others were called to the role of caring, but only St. Peter was invested with the fullness of power [plenitudo potestatis]. See then what manner of servant this is, appointed over the household; he is indeed the vicar of Jesus Christ, the successor of St. Peter, the Christ of the Lord, the God of Pharaoh…the midpoint between God and man… who can judge all things and is judged by no one.”
-Consecration Sermon, c. 1200, see Rome Has Spoken; Granfield, Patrick, The Limits of the Papacy:Authority and Autonomy in the Church, NY:Crossroad, 1987; p. 32.

POPE ST PIUS V: "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous”. Cardinal Cusa supports this statement.

FAMOUS BENEDICTINE CANONIST: “The pope can do all things God can do.” - Nicolaus de Tudeschis [1386-1445], “Commentaria” (lvi, 34)Dont think the Vatican has abandoned the Papal Christ! Paul VI said:

“The successor of Peter”is “‘the sweet Christ on earth’ to whom is owed filial love and obedience, because ‘He who will be disobedient to Christ on earth, who stands in the stead of Christ in heaven, will not share in the fruit of the blood of the Son of God *…for he is the Head and Priniciple of our Faith’”

• Homily given in the Vatican Basilica at the Proclamation of Catherine of Sienna as “Doctor of the Church” (October 1, 1970); reprinted in “Catholic Dossier”, March/April 1999, Vol. 5, No. 2, Ignatius Press: San Francisco, 1999.
  And John Paul II:

"[T]he Pope is…the man on earth who represents the Son of God, who ‘takes the place’ of the Second Person of the omnipotent God of the Trinity.”
-Crossing the Threshold of Hope, p. 3
The Romanists are so spiritually sick that Saint Cardinal Bellarmine, the Doctor of the Papacy, said:
“If the Pope errs by commanding vices or forbidding virtues, then the Church must believe that vices are good and virtues bad, unless one wants to sin against conscience”

• De Summo Pontifice, bk. 4, ch. 5.*

 

[rad]

part 3

And the Ignatius of Loyola, founder of the Papistical Jesuits, said:

We ought ever to hold as a fixed principle that what is white that I see I will believe to be black if the superior authorities in Rome define it so"

• “Spiritual Exercises”, Rule 13).
  Not only does the Roman Pope believe himself to be God and Christ, but he also forbade the Blood of the Covenant (which is the Chalice of our salvation!), and instituted the mechanical system of indulgences. The common teaching on plenary indulgences is that the Pope remits the full amount of guilt so that one can “avoid purgatory altogether and go straight to heaven.” This is taught in the Raccolta (the official book on indulgences), the Catholic Encyclopedia, and Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. Its hard to conceive how essential indulgences were in Roman Catholicism prior to Vatican II. The CathEncyclodpedia states that it is morally wrong to not attempt to receive such a great good as indulgences. Faithful RCers gained them every day. New plenary indulgences were issued atleast every 35 years at Jubilees. (Though they could be gained any time.) At these Jubilees the Pope redeemed souls on earth and in purgatory. Indeed the Pope is a savior. If this is not of the antichrist I dont know what is.
  Pope Leo XIII said:
  Quote
  “This is our last lesson to you: receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church; the strong and effective instrument of salvation is none other than the Roman Pontificate.”
  Allocution for the 25th anniversary of his election, February 20, 1903; Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, page 653).
  It is little wonder that all Protestants believed the Pope of Rome to be the Antichrist. The Reformists said that they were as certain of this as they were of the divinity of Christ. This was basically an article of faith for them. It is in most of their creeds. Even the Anglicans were unanimous on it until the late seventeenth century. And it was not until the 1950s that the Lutherans said that their congregants do not need to believe that he is the fulfillment of 2 Thes 2. Now some might be inclined to dismiss this as Protestant reactionism. I think they went to far in making it an article of faith. But some noble scholars before the Reformation were put to death for saying he is the Antichrist. And many Orthodox also believed it. The monks of the Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou still do. They have it posted on their walls.
  Romanism is simply a resurrection of the Pagan Roman Empire. The Pope is basically an Emperor and his Empire is Babylon. They claimed to have universal temporal dominion. Unam Sanctum defined that the Pope received the temporal sword from Christ, which was given to make all men subject to the Papal Christ, and that “submission to the Roman Pontiff is absolutely necessary for salvation.” The popes called the Crusades and gave indulgences to the warriors. (This was the origin of indulgences.) And the popes were secular monarchs of Italy. They had their own armies and went out to war. And the Inquisition makes the Holocaust look like a picnic. It killed much more people and the tortures were more horendous. This “harlot” of Revelations spilled all this blood and yet withheld the Blood of the Redeemer!

All Christians of the West were under Papal dominion until the Reformation. And the East was under Papal dominion more than the EO often wants to admit. During the Crusades the Papacy overtook all the Eastern Patriarchates. In some cases it was not until hundreds of years until the Orthodox patriarchs were able to go back to their Sees. And it was the Papacy that destroyed Byzantium. After the Latins sacked Constantinople in 1204 the Orthodox Church was left defenseless before the Turks. The EO is now tiny in comparison with the Roman Catholic Church. Then there is Uniatism… I think the “mark of the beast” is obedience to the Pope.

Martin Luther contrasted Christ to the Pope thus:

Quote
Christ washed his disciples’ feet : the Pope demands his feet to be kissed even by emperors
Christ fled from an earthly crown : the Pope ever seeks earthly dominion
Christ is given a crown of thorns : the Pope wears a triple crown of gold
Christ paid taxes : the Pope is exempt from taxes
Christ lived in humble poverty : the Pope fares sumptuously
Christ was bowed to earth with the cross : the Pope is carried about in state
Christ rode into Jerusalem on a humble *** : the Pope rides a beautiful caparisoned steed
Christ sought neither silver nor gold : the Pope rules cities and empires
Christ’s kingdom was not with observation : the Pope subjects the whole world
Christ drove out the moneychangers : the Pope sells indulgences.
Christ ascends to heaven : the Pope will descend into hell
The papacy is a total mockery of everything Christian… truly antichrist.

 

[VARC]

Your list impresses no one. Roman Catholics do not believe that the pope is God nor does Benedict XVI teach that he is God. Your quotes may implicate those person of blasphemy but you can hardly attribute those charges to modern Roman Catholics.

 

[rad]

part 4

his is certainly no new Ultramontane teaching. It originates with Pope Nicholas, was repeated by a long line of medieval Popes, and is expounded by canonists.

Quote
POPE NICHOLAS I: “the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man.” Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para.

POPE NICHOLAS I: “I am all in all and above all, so that God Himself, and I, the Vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do . . . Wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God. WHAT CAN YOU MAKE ME BUT GOD? Again, if prelates of the Church be called and counted of Constantine for gods, I then, being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods. Wherefore, no marvel if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea, with the precepts of Christ.” Decret. Par Distinct 96 Ch. 7 Edit Lugd. 1661.

POPE GREGORY IX: “Wherefore, if those things that I do, be said to be done not of man, but of God; what can you make me but God?”

POPE INNOCENT III: “It was said to me in the prophet: “I have set you over nations and over kingdoms, to pluck up and to break down, to destroy, and to overthrow, to build and to plant”(Jer. 1:10)…Others were called to the role of caring, but only St. Peter was invested with the fullness of power [plenitudo potestatis]. See then what manner of servant this is, appointed over the household; he is indeed the vicar of Jesus Christ, the successor of St. Peter, the Christ of the Lord, the God of Pharaoh…the midpoint between God and man… who can judge all things and is judged by no one.”
-Consecration Sermon, c. 1200, see Rome Has Spoken; Granfield, Patrick, The Limits of the Papacy:Authority and Autonomy in the Church, NY:Crossroad, 1987; p. 32.

POPE ST PIUS V: "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous”. Cardinal Cusa supports this statement.

FAMOUS BENEDICTINE CANONIST: “The pope can do all things God can do.” - Nicolaus de Tudeschis [1386-1445], “Commentaria” (lvi, 34)

 

[VARC]

 

[rad]

Your list impresses no one. Roman Catholics do not believe that the pope is God nor does Benedict XVI teach that he is God. Your quotes may implicate those person of blasphemy but you can hardly attribute those charges to modern Roman Catholics.

Its part of there history …are they going to deny it… come on you cant be serious…

 

[JMJ_coder]

Your list impresses no one. Roman Catholics do not believe that the pope is God nor does Benedict XVI teach that he is God. Your quotes may implicate those person of blasphemy but you can hardly attribute those charges to modern Roman Catholics.

Nor do I find any of them anywhere but on anti-Catholic sites. They may have come from actual texts, though I’ll wait to see some more conclusive proof of authenticity - sorry rad, but I don’t take your citations at face value, it looks like you just cut and pasted from any number of rabidly anti-Catholic sites - but at the very least they are probably horribly mistranslated and taken out of context.

At least, though, one cite is accurate, that of Pope John Paul II from Crossing the Threshold of Hope. But, do you actually know what vicar means? It means “taking the place” of someone, to stand in as their representative.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Its part of there history …are they going to deny it… come on you cant be serious…

Is it history, or just mistranslations or lies - a lot of it sounds like it was written by Boettner.