Catholic history is disturbing

[Chancellare]

Luther wrote:

“All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned.”

That reads like double predestination.

Ahh, the disadvantages of having non-unified/multiple/diverging doctrines - I’m not blaming you for not studying deeper enough your ancestors’ opposing doctrines. With so much opposing beliefs within, how can you have the time to debate with Catholics with that?

Clue: reprobation.

 

[Cinette]

When I came on these forums I was happy to debate with Protestants. I thought it was very exciting and instructive. I sometimes had to go digging deep into my books and tracts to respond and I learned an awful lot.

Then I noticed now creeky and peculiar (this is a polite word) some Protestants could be and it made me a little bolder and cheeky too.

I prefer when we can debate and advance in our debate but with some people this is impossible.

 

[Cinette]

Ahh, the disadvantages of having non-unified/multiple/diverging doctrines - I’m not blaming you for not studying deeper enough your ancestors’ opposing doctrines. With so much opposing beliefs within, how can you have the time to debate with Catholics with that?

Clue: reprobation.

Chancellare - I think you should be gentler with rad - he doesn’t strike me to be one of “them”. I think he is genuine in his comments. That is what he has been exposed to.

Be nice

 

[Chancellare]

Chancellare - I think you should be gentler with rad - he doesn’t strike me to be one of “them”. I think he is genuine in his comments. That is what he has been exposed to.

Be nice

If any uncharity, I apologize. :banghead:

 

[CWBetts]

Huh?

Pius IX died only in 1878, hundreds of years after the Reformation.
Yes.

Nobody, and certainly not I, have argued that.

The counter-reformation did not end until Vatican II. The reformation continues as we speak, with new church communites splintering off of others on a regualr basis.

 

[Methodi]

Sincerity is not a synonym for veracity. They may believe it to be true, but that does not make it so.

Who knows what to believe anymore, it`s all become very confusing

 

[Cinette]

Who knows what to believe anymore, it`s all become very confusing

We live in very difficult and complex times and the Church has to define and study and explain many issues. So they form committees where these discussions take place and with a lot of prayer they are able to conclude what is true what is right.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

That discussion is on the Forum at

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=456215&highlight=saigir#post456215

Message 25 is an interesting insight into Fr Ambrose’s Irish interests. And if you look at the last message in the thread he explains why he is unwilling to carry on the discussion in that particular section of the Forum.

I remember the conversation. To this day he still hasn’t proved this claim (or other such false claims of his). Neither have you. As I said, he was in the habit of thrusting out false claims about Catholicism, then retreating when his error was pointed out.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

The restriction of freedom of religion seems to have been taught by the Pope before Vatican II.

Pope Pius IX taught

“The State must forbid non-Catholic religions” and “Only Catholics have the right to religious liberty.”
Pius IX, D.1690, 1699

These statements of the Pope are in “The Sources of Catholic Dogma,” edited by Fr. Henry Densinger, B.Herder Book Co., Imprimatur, 1955

I have Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum, and these are not quotes from Pius IX, certainly not from the Denzinger’s references you provided (D. 1690, 1699). Did you just lift this from an anti-Catholic web page without actually verifying whether it was true? Be honest, you didn’t actually get these from Denzinger’s texts, did you? When one uncritically trusts dishonest sources, baffoonery often results.

There are many things worthy of criticism regarding what popes have said and done. Why do people feel the need to start making up things? Is this tactic from some pamphlet of anti-Catholic strategies that has been passed around…simply throw out false claims without bothering to verify them?

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you simply made an error, not intending to be deceptive.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

                 Originally Posted by **rad**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cak/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4484473#post4484473)                 
             *The restriction of freedom of religion seems to have been taught by the Pope before Vatican II.

Pope Pius IX taught

“The State must forbid non-Catholic religions” and “Only Catholics have the right to religious liberty.”
Pius IX, D.1690, 1699

These statements of the Pope are in “The Sources of Catholic Dogma,” edited by Fr. Henry Densinger, B.Herder Book Co., Imprimatur, 1955*
If that is true I condemn it. It would not be an “article of faith” I am sure.

It’s not true. Pius IX never wrote what was attributed to him above. Rad should apologize. I could never get Fr Ambrose to apologize after making such blunders. But, that would be the kind thing to do.

 

[Cinette]

It’s not true. Pius IX never wrote what was attributed to him above. Rad should apologize. I could never get Fr Ambrose to apologize after making such blunders. But, that would be the kind thing to do.

Well, this is why we are here on there forums. To debate, discuss, share, learn and have myths and lies clarified.

Thank you for that. I hope Rad will apologise. In fact, I believe he will.

The numerous lies and hate stories about the Catholic Church have always been propagated by enemies of the Church. They have been relentless in their endeavours to destroy the Church of Jesus Christ. Jesus did warn us that the devil will do his best to harm us. But “light shines in darkness” We have the Holy Spirit to guide us into truth and Jesus said he would be with us always. So we need have no fear that the Devil will win…
:nunchuk: :nunchuk:

 

[rikkk1958]

Well, this is why we are here on there forums. To debate, discuss, share, learn and have myths and lies clarified.

Thank you for that. I hope Rad will apologise. In fact, I believe he will.

The numerous lies and hate stories about the Catholic Church have always been propagated by enemies of the Church. They have been relentless in their endeavours to destroy the Church of Jesus Christ. Jesus did warn us that the devil will do his best to harm us. But “light shines in darkness” We have the Holy Spirit to guide us into truth and Jesus said he would be with us always. So we need have no fear that the Devil will win…
:nunchuk: :nunchuk:

Amen Cinette, your post is always right on the button. Good Catholic must always understand that there is a big difference between the Divinity of the Church and the Humanity that administers it. The church follows the best possible truth there is from the Scriptures and the Apostolic Traditions.

 

[inJESUS]

I wonder, when jesus’ apostles left Him, and when Judas betrayed him, and when Paul used to kill Christians, why don’t people reject them for their bad history?

 

[rad]

Ahh, the disadvantages of having non-unified/multiple/diverging doctrines - I’m not blaming you for not studying deeper enough your ancestors’ opposing doctrines. .

I think that we have a misunderstanding between us and I would like to make a clarification. I am not a Protestant and never have been, I am an Orthodox Christian, a member of the “one holy catholic and apostolic church” which was founded by Jesus Christ and the holy Apostles and transmitted to us from them.

 

[rad]

It’s not true. Pius IX never wrote what was attributed to him above. Rad should apologize.

I most sincerely apologize.

It seems I have been deceived by traditional Catholics who claim these things about Pope Pius IX. They even quote the chapters and the paragraph numbers in Denzinger’s monumental work “Enchiridion Symbolorum” where the Pope’s words are supposed to be recorded.

It is difficult to believe that traditional Catholics would create such a deception (especially because they are very PRO Pius IX) but if you have checked the book and these paragraphs are not there then it must be believed.

Forgive me for being so foolish as to trust too much and for relaying these lies.

 

[ErrorCMDR]

Well apart from Canada is there a History that is not Disturbing?

 

[Cinette]

I most sincerely apologize.

It seems I have been deceived by traditional Catholics who claim these things about Pope Pius IX. They even quote the chapters and the paragraph numbers in Denzinger’s monumental work “Enchiridion Symbolorum” where the Pope’s words are supposed to be recorded.

It is difficult to believe that traditional Catholics would create such a deception (especially because they are very PRO Pius IX) but if you have checked the book and these paragraphs are not there then it must be believed.

Forgive me for being so foolish as to trust too much and for relaying these lies.

I knew you were just passing on something you had picked up from someone.

If we are sufficiently Catechised we will still be able to identify truth from lies because it would not be consistent. I too am learning new things every day, especially on CAF.

As an Orthodox Christian your faith is very close to ours.

 

[rad]

I knew you were just passing on something you had picked up from someone.

If we are sufficiently Catechised we will still be able to identify truth from lies because it would not be consistent. Cinette,

The more I think about it the more disgusted I become,

How could traditional Catholics spread such blatant lies.

They even gave the paragraph numbers in Denzinger’s work for these comments attributed to Pope Pius IX. But Dave says he has this book and they are lying. There is nothing there.

I am really shocked. I apologize again to the Forum members for presenting these lies. I have been as much a victim of these traditional Catholics as anyone else.

 

[rad]

I knew you were just passing on something you had picked up from someone.

If we are sufficiently Catechised we will still be able to identify truth from lies because it would not be consistent. ]

Dear Cinette and Dave,

It has just been pointed out that Pope Pius IX did condemn freedom of religion and quite specifically in his “Syllabus of Errors”. This was then incorporated into Vatican I.

So while it remains a puzzle why the traditional Catholics gave false refernces in Densinger’s book, they were right overall - Pius IX was against freedom of religion…

I have found these sections from the Syllabus of Errors

Condemned No 15 - “a man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.” (No. 15)

Condemned No 78 - “it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship.”

 

[Church_Militant]

The counter-reformation did not end until Vatican II.

The reformation continues as we speak, with new church communities splintering off of others on a regular basis.DARN! No one told me! I’m still at it.

I don’t find our history disturbing at all. I find it hopeful.

I’ve read the Bible and the Church is not worse than the folks in there, so I see great hope in them and pursue Our Lord to the best of my ability while praying for the rest of His imperfect people as they too follow Him. Someone wisely told me once, (my dear pastor I think), “the church is a hospital for sinners, not a hotel for saints.”

After all, what did St. Peter say to Jesus?

Luke 5 :8 Which when Simon Peter saw, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying: Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord.