Catholic history is disturbing

[Methodi]

Catholics get very concerned when someone expresses the idea that another Catholic does not accept all the teachings of the Church. In reality many Catholics do not accept all the teachings of the Church because they don’t know what they are. I’m almost certain that if I asked any group of Catholics what they think is required by the Church as necessary for salvation they would not all be in agreement. On this thread alone there is disagreement about what has been declared as infallible doctrine. I want to dialogue but I think it leads to shadow boxing. If we could go back in time and put all believers in one big room I think we would see that we all disagree about something and Jesus knew before the world began whose name is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Isnt it amazing how catholics differ about everything when we are supposed to be in unity. Its just amazing to me & hard to believe, most of them make up their own rules, But I guess, whatever works for you is Ok.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Has anyone else delved into Catholic history and found the utter corruption and moral depravity shocking? I find it hard to really be proud of my Catholic roots when there is sooooooo much corruption in it. I wish it was one or two isolated incidences but corruption and lust for power seem to pervade every second of the Church’s history. And it continues to this day.

First of all, there are a few things one must bear in mind when studying history. 1. socially accepted standards change just as much as cultures do. The church stretched through thousands of years and thousands of cultures. You can’t judge a person’s actions who lived a thousand years ago by modern standards. You have to look at their situation, culture, and moral practices of the time.

Secondly, the church has always had fallible humans in it. Mistakes are made, but thanks to the power of the Holy Spirit, the truth the church holds has remained constant. Yes, there were corrupt popes, bishops, and priests in the past, but it doesn’t mean the church as a whole is corrupt.

There is a continuty in the church you won’t find elsewhere, in any denomination. There is something special about this church.

On a personal note, it was while studying church history (at a protestant college no less) that converted me to Catholicism.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**
Hi Whit, Excellent post! **

First of all, there are a few things one must bear in mind when studying history. 1. socially accepted standards change just as much as cultures do. The church stretched through thousands of years and thousands of cultures. You can’t judge a person’s actions who lived a thousand years ago by modern standards. You have to look at their situation, culture, and moral practices of the time.

**I, myself, kind of miss the concept of burning heretics at the stakes! **

Secondly, the church has always had fallible humans in it. Mistakes are made, but thanks to the power of the Holy Spirit, the truth the church holds has remained constant. Yes, there were corrupt popes, bishops, and priests in the past, but it doesn’t mean the church as a whole is corrupt.

**
Amen!**

There is a continuty in the church you won’t find elsewhere, in any denomination. There is something special about this church.

**It is called the Spirit of God! **

On a personal note, it was while studying church history (at a protestant college no less) that converted me to Catholicism.

**Welcome, to the Faith!

God Bless**

 

[ron77nyc]

Anybody who can type a profile can claim to be a ‘catholic’. The question should be: do you believe in what Catholicism stands for? If not, you’re as much of a Catholic as a black swan is what he thinks he is.

When I received the sacrament of confirmation the bishop didn’t have any objections.
Can you tell me all the infallible proclamations of Roman Catholicism and if not where can I get them?

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Isnt it amazing how catholics differ about everything when we are supposed to be in unity. Its just amazing to me & hard to believe, most of them make up their own rules, But I guess, whatever works for you is Ok.

**
That is a very “Protestant” thing to say! **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Catholics get very concerned when someone expresses the idea that another Catholic does not accept all the teachings of the Church.

**
Hi Ron .
57% of “Catholics” do not believe in the “real presense” yet call themselves Catholic. 30% of protestants do believe in the “real presence”. 100% of protestants follow false teachings! I can give you statistics. So what? What will save your soul is what you believe! **

In reality many Catholics do not accept all the teachings of the Church because they don’t know what they are. I’m almost certain that if I asked any group of Catholics what they think is required by the Church as necessary for salvation they would not all be in agreement.

**
That is exactly correct! And if they break one of the laws of the church, they think they can just become a Protestant and still be saved. It doesn’t work that way! There is very little actually “required” for salvation! But it isn’t following "laws’ that will save people it is Faith, and the exercise of that faith. If you are not drawing closer to God, you are drawing apart. Jesus gave us the sacraments and the Church to insure our salvation. The church asks us to follow Church tradition (small “t”) in addition to following the required Sacred (large T) Tradition . **

On this thread alone there is disagreement about what has been declared as infallible doctrine. I want to dialogue but I think it leads to shadow boxing. If we could go back in time and put all believers in one big room I think we would see that we all disagree about something

**
Even the Apostiles disagreed about things, They were human just as we are. You must have faith! Infalliability was declared in 1870 to stop debates such as you attempt to develope. There were many things declared by the church. Wether you agree with “most” church teachings don’t matter. But you better velieve in the Large T Traditions which include the infallibility of the Pope and the unchangable beliefs of the Church. If the church would have modified the real truths, we could have prevented Satan from stealing so many souls and developing the cancerous growth on the Body of Christ called protestantism. The Catholic church is what it is, One Holy Catholic and Apolostic church which has been here for 2,000 years. Protestant denominations are counterfeit, distorted, corrupted, adulterated, fraudulent imitation representations of Jesus real church. They teach and follow 1375 sets of contaminated, distorted and false doctrines and dogmas to some extermely good and love filled people who believe they are followign Jesus and his teachings but are being taught from one of 100 different Bibles and all their denominations distorted beliefs . So they aren’t following Jesus, they only believe they are.

God Bless **

and Jesus knew before the world began whose name is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Ron, Where did you get that belief? Since time means nothing to God that may be true, but we have free will to decline the sacrafice that Jesus made for us. We can turn down salvation. It happens every day!

 

[Peter_J]

Catholics get very concerned when someone expresses the idea that another Catholic does not accept all the teachings of the Church. In reality many Catholics do not accept all the teachings of the Church because they don’t know what they are. I’m almost certain that if I asked any group of Catholics what they think is required by the Church as necessary for salvation they would not all be in agreement. On this thread alone there is disagreement about what has been declared as infallible doctrine. I want to dialogue but I think it leads to shadow boxing. If we could go back in time and put all believers in one big room I think we would see that we all disagree about something and Jesus knew before the world began whose name is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Yes. I’ve never actually heard a Catholic come right out and say “I think the Pope needs my help deciding who should be excommunicated”, and yet that seems to be the gist of a lot of internet-posts.

 

[Peter_J]

Anybody who can type a profile can claim to be a ‘catholic’.

Exactly. I try to tell people, Just because someone profile says “Catholics” it doesn’t make him/her some kind of official representative of Catholicism.

It’s especially frustrating when internet-Catholics start telling other Christians they’re going to hell, and stuff like that.

 

[Cinette]

CALLING ALL PROTESTANTS!

I just came across an interesting thread. It was started by a person who was Agnostic and who is now considering the Catholic Church! She is challenging anyone who can prove that what the Catholic Church teaches is unbiblical - you have to prove scriptually that any particular teaching is totally wrong - she will immediately quit RCIA and follow your Protestant church.

So if you want to “save her soul” here is your chance!

Here is the link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=292938

Cheers
Cinette

 

[ron77nyc]

Realcatholicgk:
RON

and Jesus knew before the world began whose name is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

REALCATHOLIC

Ron, Where did you get that belief? Since time means nothing to God that may be true, but we have free will to decline the sacrafice that Jesus made for us. We can turn down salvation. It happens every day!

It’s from the book of Revelation:
Rev 13:7 It was also allowed to wage war against the holy ones and conquer them, and it was granted authority over every tribe, people, tongue, and nation. 8 All the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, all whose names were not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life, which belongs to the Lamb who was slain.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

ron77nyc:

I don’t know exactly what you are trying to say but let me say this and relate it to church history in my life time to keep on the subject.

** Hi Ron,
I was very clear in what I said! **

I am very honest.

** That is a good thing! **

If I were to change my profile it would say Catholic/Protestant because I believe in the real presence of Jesus in the eucharist. The Protestants don’t believe that so I’m not a real Protestant either.

**
You can’t believe opposing things Ron, it just doesn’t work that way. Oh, there are Protestants that believe in the real presense! Several denominations actually. Not that they actually have it, but they do believe they do. Strangely some think that it stops being Jesus’ body after the service is over. They don’t have apolostic succession. I think they should use Oreos with their grape juice for all the good it actually does their souls. How are you going to obtain any grace from an imitation Eucharist? With 61,000 different denominations you might even find one that believes in the infalliability of the Pope! Protestants believe whatever they like. They have no restrictions! Catholics however follow the teachings of the church handed down over 2,000 years. Protestants do believe they are following Jesus and his teachings, they are just wrong!
Do you realize that if you were baptised as a christian by any faith you would still be a Catholic? That you were baptised as a christian in the Catholic church doesn’t make you a “Pratical Catholic” or as we like to say a “True Believer”.
I wonder, if you actually don’t have Faith in the teachings of the Catholic Church why call yourself Catholic? “Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” Mt 7:22 **

I’m very impressed with the faithful Catholics on this forum because they know what they believe and why they believe it.

**
Some of us know things. Some of us practice our faith. All of us hope that we live up to the promises of Christ. The more a person knows the more sins he will be responsibie for answering to when judged. It is said that ignorance of the law is no excuse, In the case of sin, that is not actually the case. You can’t be judged for doing something that you did not realize went against God or His teachings. That is why only God can judge us and our hearts. We can profess many things, but He will not find anyone sinless or guiltless, except Jesus’ Blessed Mother, Mary! **

I can’t say that about myself because a lot of the stuff I learned was at a Catholic bible study given by a priest. My parish priest tells us to take the good that we can learn from the Protestants.

**
I don’t think that was completely truthful! You learnt enough false teachings to want to agrue about the infallibility of the Pope for some strange reason.You feel that other’s non-belief justifies your own in some strange way.
Ron, Have Faith, develop your faith! Pray for faith, Pray for understanding, Pray and pray!
“Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe” -Saint Augustine; “Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand” - Saint Augustine . Many Protestant people are good people. They are just following false beliefs, their vision clouded by the devil. Strangely the more they learn, the more they start to doubt their faith. They started 500 years ago we started 2,000 years ago. We haven’t changed! They have developed into 61,000 denominations with 1,375 different doctrines and dogmas. Even a blind man can see something is wrong! **

Obviously what you guys have learned is very different from what I was taught.
**
Well go and learn the truth! I bet you that there is a group in your own parish that believe what we believe. Try the Knights of Columbus. See if there is a pray group, a bible study group, a RCIA class in you parish. If not I bet you could find one close by. I can’t judge you nor your heart. I do know that your thinking appears to be very distorted and you display anger at our Church. I am praying for you and have asked the 9,000 members of my prayer circle to pray for you also! ’ You are not alone. You are loved! **

I don’t get on here to create conflict. I get on here to challenge people hoping they can meet the challenge and change my mind.

** Ron, It takes Faith not intellectural debate to believe. I keep telling you to pray! That will, in itself, do more than all the debates and arguments you could ever have. The way you say things are adversarial rather than inquisitive. I was almost shocked when you said you thought you were Catholic. **

Sorry if I offend anyone in the process. Sometimes things get rough when you talk about religion.

**
No offense here, it is Jesus, that I think you offended attacking His church and His chosen successor. I’ve known quite a few people who’ve complained about “not being fed” in the Catholic Church. The problem is never with them… always with the Church and/or other Catholics. If you try to help them, they accuse you of being a zealot or a judgmental pharisee… There seems to be a kind of victim mentality about it. It’s very passive-aggressive. [Domine, da mihi hanc aquam!: Church is not Wal-Mart (UPDATED)](Click on: “The Church is not Walmart”)**

Remember, God loves each of us as if there were only one of us. Don’t forget to thank Him daily! “He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent.” - Saint Augustine

God Bless

 

[Realcatholicgk]

CALLING ALL PROTESTANTS!

I just came across an interesting thread. It was started by a person who was Agnostic and who is now considering the Catholic Church! She is challenging anyone who can prove that what the Catholic Church teaches is unbiblical - you have to prove scriptually that any particular teaching is totally wrong - she will immediately quit RCIA and follow your Protestant church.

So if you want to “save her soul” here is your chance!

Here is the link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=292938

Cheers
Cinette

**
Cinette, you should have said: So if you want to help her" lose her soul" with you, here is your chance! **

 

[benedictus2]

“As far as I know” is a strange way to put it, but the opinion that benedictus2 expressed is actually quite common, even among conservative Catholics. (Don’t ask me why.)

.

Peter J, is that the best you can do? If you know this is OPINION, can you please supply the facts.

What’s with that? You have an opportunity to correct an error and you do don’t do that.

You say it is a quite common opinion so what is the true blue, real deal fact?

And the words “as far as I know” is precisely just that, “as far as I know”. I have not really read up on the matter extensively and that is the extent of my knowledge based on what little I have read.

I don’t claim to be the authority on any subject. You have a major issue somewhere.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Exactly. I try to tell people, Just because someone profile says “Catholics” it doesn’t make him/her some kind of official representative of Catholicism.

Hi PeteJ,

**I would hope that anyone able to “operate” a computer would be intelligent not to consider a cyber person an official representative of anything, much less our Mother church! **

It’s especially frustrating when internet-Catholics start telling other Christians they’re going to hell, and stuff like that.
**

I am a practical Catholic on and off the Internet. And because I love my separated brethren, I feel am required to tell them they are going to hell if they continue to following false teachings no matter how frustrating you might get PeterJ. We must try to save their souls, you know I am correct. They are the lost sheep that Jesus spoke of many times. You do good work are extremely knowledgeable, and being human are also sometimes wrong! But we all try, in our own ways, to save souls! That even include the Protestants who come here not realizing they themselves are going to hell if they don’t find Jesus’ true teachings! OK, the devil made me say that!

God Bless **

 

[ron77nyc]

Realcatholicgk:
Realcatholic

I think they should use Oreos with their grape juice for all the good it actually does their souls. How are you going to obtain any grace from an imitation Eucharist?
Protestants believe whatever they like. They have no restrictions! Catholics however follow the teachings of the church handed down over 2,000 years. Protestants do believe they are following Jesus and his teachings, they are just wrong!

I have Protestant friends and family members who take their faith and their relationship with the Lord very seriously. I wouldn’t want you sitting around the Christmas tree with them saying some of the things you mention here.

Do you realize that if you were baptised as a christian by any faith you would still be a Catholic?

And you say my thinking is distorted.

Ron, Have Faith, develop your faith! Pray for faith, Pray for understanding, Pray and pray!

I do have faith and I do pray. I’ve been doing that for many years.

Well go and learn the truth! I bet you that there is a group in your own parish that believe what we believe. Try the Knights of Columbus. See if there is a pray group, a bible study group, a RCIA class in you parish.

I went to the prayer group. I go to the church. What do you know about holy laughter?

The way you say things are adversarial rather than inquisitive. I was almost shocked when you said you thought you were Catholic.

We had this discussion on another thread. You probably don’t remember but you were kind of abusive to me then. You’re a little better now but just look at your own attitude. You’re the pot calling the kettle black.

I’m tired of hearing people profess unity and disunity at the same time.

Remember, God loves each of us as if there were only one of us. Don’t forget to thank Him daily! “He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent.” - Saint Augustine

I am very confident in God’s love for me. It’s a gift from Him that I do not deserve.

 

[Martin777]

Realcatholicgk:
In all honesty, to me the most disturbing thing about Catholic history is the point at which they deviated from the gospel of grace through faith in the all-sufficient, atonement of the Lamb. The finished work of the cross. Do you think that’s true?

 

[Martin777]

Realcatholicgk:
Actually religion is the enemy of a relationship with Christ!

 

[Strevel]

Has anyone else delved into Catholic history and found the utter corruption and moral depravity shocking? I find it hard to really be proud of my Catholic roots when there is sooooooo much corruption in it. I wish it was one or two isolated incidences but corruption and lust for power seem to pervade every second of the Church’s history. And it continues to this day.

It is not a part of the Catholic Doctrine, just part of being human. Other faiths have the same issues as well. You should see some prblem and issues of the other faiths. I am a convert to the Catholic faith and have seen some things out of Utah that would make your hair turn green.

Don in Vegas

 

[Strevel]

Before you find fault with me you should speak to Catholics in your own parish and then expand from there and find out what they really believe. Concern yourself with baptized Catholics who don’t believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, those who believe there is nothing wrong woth pre-marital sex and those who believe in reincarnation, numerology, astrology, horoscopes and psychics.

That is correct, and every group has them. However, that is not anything on the Church, but that silly individual.

Don in Vegas

 

[Realcatholicgk]

RON

REALCATHOLIC

It’s from the book of Revelation:
Rev 13:7 It was also allowed to wage war against the holy ones and conquer them, and it was granted authority over every tribe, people, tongue, and nation. 8 All the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, all whose names were not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life, which belongs to the Lamb who was slain.

**
Hi Ron:wave:

That explains it. :doh2: I really seldom read Revelations. I don’t “like” that type of writing. John had been driven into exile on a small island off the West coast of Asia Minor called Patmose and because of persecution he resorted to Apocalyptic language. His intended readers were the believers in seven Asian churches located in Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea. I agree with most,that John’s purpose in writing the Book of Revelation was twofold. The first part, seven letters were the risen Christ evaluation of these churches. The remainder of the work is a truly apocalyptic work; What it describes actually depends on the interpretive approach adopted. The book of Revelation has always presented any interpreter with many challenges. Lifetimes have been spent attempting to correctly interpret it. I am actually surprised that you read this book at all. I personally avoid reading it because of the corrupt interpretations against our church that Protestants developed by twisting the meanings of the teachings. Maybe I don’t like it because I am not a virgin? Or perhaps because the JH love this book! :whacky: As I am sure you found Revelations is steeped in vivid imagery and symbolism, which people have always interpreted differently depending on their preconceptions of the book as a whole.

There are four main interpretive approaches which can be taken to the book of Revelation:

1. Preterist (which sees all or most of the events in Revelation as having already occurred by the end of the 1st century); That is the one that I personally adopt and so I rarely read it. Because otherwise it hurts my head :hypno:
2. Historicist (which sees Revelation as a survey of Church history from apostolic times to the present);
3. Idealist (which sees Revelation as a depiction of the struggle between good and evil); Some of it I also interpret that way.
4. Futurist (which sees Revelation as prophetic of events to come). Protestants love to use Revelations this way because they can twist the meaning easier than in any of the other books.Many people think that the Book of Revelation is to be taken literally, and that it is written in chronological order. To that I say Yea, right! **