Catholic-hospitals-perform-birth-control-surgeries-researcher-claims

[pepipop]

app.com/article/20120225/NJNEWS/302260021/Catholic-hospitals-perform-birth-control-surgeries-researcher-claims

It states that nearly 50% of catholic hospitals have performed sterilizations. If true, this will be a hard knock hit hard to the CC against Obama’s new health insurance legislation.

 

[Filii_Dei]

app.com/article/20120225/NJNEWS/302260021/Catholic-hospitals-perform-birth-control-surgeries-researcher-claims

It states that nearly 50% of catholic hospitals have performed sterilizations. If true, this will be a hard knock hit hard to the CC against Obama’s new health insurance legislation.

Even if true, it’s irrelevant. We hold it contrary to our faith and morals. The sin defines the sinners, not the other way around.

 

[pepipop]

Even if true, it’s irrelevant. We hold it contrary to our faith and morals. The sin defines the sinners, not the other way around.

Of course ‘I’ agree with you, but it does ‘severely hurt’ the CC’s argument regarding Obama’s policies. Most likely it will be played out by the media, along the lines of: - ‘Why did the CC not know contraceptive and sterlization practices were and are occurring within their catholic hospitals’ - and we’ll then be subject to another media witch hunt.

 

[incense]

It just means that the Bishops might have to clean up some public scandals. Because if the nuns say it’s okay, lots of people will jump on it as permission, and souls will be lost.

Faithful Catholics have been begging for excommunication or some sort of public statement against these Catholics who publicly lead others astray, the lack of action is coming home to roost.

 

[PaulinVA]

I read the study, and it does indeed indicate that some/most Catholic healthcare systems perform tubal ligations after childbirth.

Please don’t jump down my throat, but let me ask this question. I don’t know the answer.

If the patient is not Catholic, the doctor is not Catholic, what is the culpability of the hospital system? I understand abortions, but what about this?

 

[seekerz]

Not surprising. I’ve looked into Catholic hospitals and my impression is that if they are involved in training medical personnel, they are at risk of running afoul of Catholic doctrine. Abortion is a no-no everywhere as far as I know, but contraception, sterilization and fertility procedures are quite another matter. We don’t have to depend on the researcher’s findings either, just search the hospital websites or call them and see what they offer.

 

[seekerz]

I read the study, and it does indeed indicate that some/most Catholic healthcare systems perform tubal ligations after childbirth.

Please don’t jump down my throat, but let me ask this question. I don’t know the answer.

If the patient is not Catholic, the doctor is not Catholic, what is the culpability of the hospital system? I understand abortions, but what about this?

I find it comparable to the case where an employee isn’t Catholic, the insurance company isn’t Catholic, but the employer is. Why? Because the hospital own the facilities/equipment used and pays the employees involved. Procedures (except, possibly for very minor ones) are never just carried out by a doctor alone.

 

[Lorarose]

From the article…

"Procedures that induce sterility are permissible if they are meant to cure or alleviate a “present and serious pathology,” provided a simpler treatment isn’t available, according to the directives.

Hapenney says her research focused on women who delivered babies at Catholic hospitals and subsequently elected to have tubal ligation surgery to prevent a future pregnancy.

The controversy over her study hinges largely on a specific medical billing code that she says all hospitals and insurers use only for elective tubal ligation surgeries performed for “contraceptive management.”"

I don’t know much about medical billing codes.
I do know that when a woman has had her third c-section, it is common practice to close her tubes. This is to prevent her uterus from bursting during subsequent pregnancies.
There may be other medical circumstances…perhaps a woman has developed a problem during her recent delivery, and the doctors have decided there is a medical purpose for a ligation.
I know this has been debated on this forum countless times - and I’m not trying to open that can of worms.
My point…there is a difference between a woman saying “Close my tubes doc! I’ve had my one boy, my one girl, and I’m done!” vs. a woman who has been informed by the doctors…"you have developed a medical condition, and we recommend this procedure’

As far as I can tell, from reading the article, this study did not sort that out. You cannot tell from this study the “why” behind the procedures?

 

[seekerz]

From the article…

I don’t know much about medical billing codes.
I do know that when a woman has had her third c-section, it is common practice to close her tubes. This is to prevent her uterus from bursting during subsequent pregnancies.
There may be other medical circumstances…perhaps a woman has developed a problem during her recent delivery, and the doctors have decided there is a medical purpose for a ligation.
I know this has been debated on this forum countless times - and I’m not trying to open that can of worms.
My point…there is a difference between a woman saying “Close my tubes doc! I’ve had my one boy, my one girl, and I’m done!” vs. a woman who has been informed by the doctors…"you have developed a medical condition, and we recommend this procedure’

As far as I can tell, from reading the article, this study did not sort that out. You cannot tell from this study the “why” behind the procedures?

Perhaps the ‘why’ was left out because according to the Church official, it is irrelevant.

 

[PaulinVA]

I find it comparable to the case where an employee isn’t Catholic, the insurance company isn’t Catholic, but the employer is. Why? Because the hospital own the facilities/equipment used and pays the employees involved. Procedures (except, possibly for very minor ones) are never just carried out by a doctor alone.

Yes, that’s a good analogy.

As for the why, and the possible use of the wrong code - where the Bishop has said “Don’t perform those tubal ligations” the number performed is zero. So, there is a way to properly report a tubal ligation that had a medical necessity

Look at the report data - The Bishop of Tyler, Texas was told that his hospitals were performing tubal ligations, and he stopped it, and the study data shows that they were indeed performed in 2007 and 2008 and there were 0 in 2009.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Perhaps the ‘why’ was left out because according to the Church official, it is irrelevant.

Actually, it was not left out. In fact, while the Church condemns sterilization as a forms of contraception, it permits procedures for medical reasons despite it being known to cause sterility, because the intention is not to remove the possibility of life, but to treat a medical condition.

Taken from CCC #2297:

Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.

And this is why the study makes a very biased claim by not taking into consideration the fact that the Church does not impose a blanket ban upon sterilisations but only procedures where sterilisation is the intent, not the side effect. The same goes for abortions. Biased reporting, as usual. :tsktsk:

 

[Lorarose]

Actually, it was not left out. In fact, while the Church condemns sterilization as a forms of contraception, it permits procedures for medical reasons despite it being known to cause sterility, because the intention is not to remove the possibility of life, but to treat a medical condition.

Taken from CCC #2297:

And this is why the study makes a very biased claim by not taking into consideration the fact that the Church does not impose a blanket ban upon sterilisations but only procedures where sterilisation is the intent, not the side effect. The same goes for abortions. Biased reporting, as usual. :tsktsk:

ok…wow. That’s the first time I’ve seen that presented that way.
True?

I thought it was an outright ban - no ifs, ands, or buts.

 

[Rence]

Actually, it was not left out. In fact, while the Church condemns sterilization as a forms of contraception, it permits procedures for medical reasons despite it being known to cause sterility, because the intention is not to remove the possibility of life, but to treat a medical condition.

Taken from CCC #2297:

Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.

Put that together with Cardinal Ratzinger’s response when questioned about sterilizations:

I would say that those are questions that ought to be discussed with one’s spiritual director, with one’s priest, because they can’t be projected into the abstract.

From this interview: douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/condoms-catholicism-and-casuistry/

And you get a completely different picture of the need to use sound reasoning skills when real life situations don’t fit into a black and white ideal situations.

 

[PaulinVA]

And this is why the study makes a very biased claim by not taking into consideration the fact that the Church does not impose a blanket ban upon sterilisations but only procedures where sterilisation is the intent, not the side effect. The same goes for abortions. Biased reporting, as usual. :tsktsk:

Did you actually read the study? The author addresses this issue by only using the ICD9 Diagnosis Code of V25.2 Sterilization: Admission for the Interruption of Fallopian Tubes or vas deferens (V indicates that it is not a disease condition) .

The Procedure Code indicates that these were indeed bilateral tubal ligations.

The V25.2 is not used when there is a disease condition present that needs to be fixed - these are only elective sterilizations.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Did you actually read the study? The author addresses this issue by only using the ICD9 Diagnosis Code of V25.2 Sterilization: Admission for the Interruption of Fallopian Tubes or vas deferens (V indicates that it is not a disease condition) .

The Procedure Code indicates that these were indeed bilateral tubal ligations.

The V25.2 is not used when there is a disease condition present that needs to be fixed - these are only elective sterilizations.

I concede and stand corrected.

Put that together with Cardinal Ratzinger’s response when questioned about sterilizations:

From this interview: douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/condoms-catholicism-and-casuistry/

And you get a completely different picture of the need to use sound reasoning skills when real life situations don’t fit into a black and white ideal situations.

For sure, I have always believed in the principle of consulting one’s spiritual father before making difficult ethical decisions.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Put that together with Cardinal Ratzinger’s response when questioned about sterilizations:

From this interview: douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/condoms-catholicism-and-casuistry/

And you get a completely different picture of the need to use sound reasoning skills when real life situations don’t fit into a black and white ideal situations.

I agree. I have always believed in the principle of consulting one’s spiritual father before making difficult ethical decisions. It’s a practice that should be observed more often in the Roman Catholic Church.

Nonetheless, my intention was to give the Church’s public position on the issue.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Did you actually read the study? The author addresses this issue by only using the ICD9 Diagnosis Code of V25.2 Sterilization: Admission for the Interruption of Fallopian Tubes or vas deferens (V indicates that it is not a disease condition) .

The Procedure Code indicates that these were indeed bilateral tubal ligations.

The V25.2 is not used when there is a disease condition present that needs to be fixed - these are only elective sterilizations.

I concede and stand corrected.

 

[seekerz]

Actually, it was not left out. In fact, while the Church condemns sterilization as a forms of contraception, it permits procedures for medical reasons despite it being known to cause sterility, because the intention is not to remove the possibility of life, but to treat a medical condition.

Taken from CCC #2297:

And this is why the study makes a very biased claim by not taking into consideration the fact that the Church does not impose a blanket ban upon sterilisations but only procedures where sterilisation is the intent, not the side effect. The same goes for abortions. Biased reporting, as usual. :tsktsk:

I guess I’m confused. Does the Church ever accept a tubal ligation as licit? I’m not aware of any condition that it treats. Removal of a tube for an ectopic pregnancy (or other medical reason) is not the same as tubal ligation and should have a separate code. I see no bias here, but I’m open to persuasion…

 

[seekerz]

I guess I’m confused. Does the Church ever accept a tubal ligation as licit? I’m not aware of any condition that it treats. Removal of a tube for an ectopic pregnancy (or other medial reason) is not the same as tubal ligation and should have a separate code. I see no bias here, but I’m open to persuasion…

I concede and stand corrected

Guess I didn’t read far enough before posting. My apologies.

 

[Phemie]

Actually, it was not left out. In fact, while the Church condemns sterilization as a forms of contraception, it permits procedures for medical reasons despite it being known to cause sterility, because the intention is not to remove the possibility of life, but to treat a medical condition.

Taken from CCC #2297:

And this is why the study makes a very biased claim by not taking into consideration the fact that the Church does not impose a blanket ban upon sterilisations but only procedures where sterilisation is the intent, not the side effect. The same goes for abortions. Biased reporting, as usual. :tsktsk:

I can’t think of a single “medical” reason for a tubal ligation. It doesn’t cure anything.

If the uterus is so damaged you can do a hysterectomy and remove a diseased organ. The secondary effect is sterility.
OTOH, the primary and only reason for a tubal ligation is sterility. That’s not permitted.