Catholic Influence in North America

[andrewstx]

Are there regions of the U.S. where Anglo-Catholics are more prevalent? It seems that the Episcopal parishes in New York City appear more catholic than perhaps Dallas Texas. An Episcopalian friend once suggested that during the Oxford Movement that Anglo-Catholic priests would be shipped out to the hinterlands like Ohio Valley/ Midwest by low church bishops in the 1800/ early 1900’s. Is that correct?

Dallas and FT. Worth Episcopalians tend to be more anglo-catholic as well as the Diocese of Northwest Texas where I live.

But the diocese of Ft. Worth is mostly not Episcopal any longer. For the most part they have gone into the continuum.

I went to St. Nicolas in Midland TX. which has a Nashotah trained male Rector who was imported from Wisconsin.

Wisconsin tends to be very High Church, as does much of the Midwest.

 

[andrewstx]

No idea. But the Midwest was the center of the Biretta Belt, 100+ years ago.

Today I have no idea where one might find a nest of the creatures. But one might be on the lookout for clergy with membership in Societas Sanctae Crucis.

GKC, Anglicanus-Catholicus

I went to a parish in El Paso where the priests were members of the Society of the Holy Cross.

Across town the Pro Cathedral of St. Clements was ultra low. They did not wear vestments, called the clerics “ministers, and Mister” and they had Holy Communion on first Sundays only.

On sundays my friends would go to St. Clements while I would go to St. Albans.

 

[GKC]

I went to a parish in El Paso where the priests were members of the Society of the Holy Cross.

Across town the Pro Cathedral of St. Clements was ultra low. They did not wear vestments, called the clerics “ministers, and Mister” and they had Holy Communion on first Sundays only.

On sundays my friends would go to St. Clements while I would go to St. Albans.

If that were the Anglo-Catholic parish, I’d have gone with you.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Dallas and FT. Worth Episcopalians tend to be more anglo-catholic as well as the Diocese of Northwest Texas where I live.

But the diocese of Ft. Worth is mostly not Episcopal any longer. For the most part they have gone into the continuum.

I went to St. Nicolas in Midland TX. which has a Nashotah trained male Rector who was imported from Wisconsin.

Wisconsin tends to be very High Church, as does much of the Midwest.

The DIocese of Fort Worth followed +Iker into the ACNA, mostly. Which, technically, is not part of the Continuum.

GKC

 

[andrewstx]

If that were the Anglo-Catholic parish, I’d have gone with you.

GKC

Yes St. Albans is the Anglo Catholic parish in El Paso. I don’t know if they are still Episcopalian now.

I am aware that a large part of the Diocese of the Rio Grande left, including St. Clement’s Pro Cathedral.

 

[GKC]

Yes St. Albans is the Anglo Catholic parish in El Paso. I don’t know if they are still Episcopalian now.

I am aware that a large part of the Diocese of the Rio Grande left, including St. Clement’s Pro Cathedral.

Yep.

St. Albans appears to still be in TEC.

GKC

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Suppose I shouldn’t have used Texas as an example as less likely ‘catholic’ as it applies to the Episcopal Church and, frankly, have no idea what the typical Lutheran, Methodist, Reformed parish is like in that state. But I do know that Baptists are the dominate Protestant group in the entire South and that there has been ‘anti-catholic’ sentiment historically. Has that had any influence on other denominations?

The Virgin of Guadalupe has followers among some Protestants and that is a particularly American event/ holy day among Roman Catholics.

 

[Publisher]

Not addressed in the question, but (selected) Anglicans refer to the service as Mass, the Communion as the the Communion or the Eucharist, the consecrated elements as the Blessed Body/Holy Blood.

Others, otherwise.

GKC

My employer is a Warden for one of the larger Episcopal praises in the PDX area he ways refers to it as “mass” and or “Eucharist”.

 

[GKC]

GKC;11780519:

Not addressed in the question, but (selected) Anglicans refer to the service as Mass, the Communion as the the Communion or the Eucharist, the consecrated elements as the Blessed Body/Holy Blood.

Others, otherwise.

GKC

My employer is a Warden for one of the larger Episcopal praises in the PDX area he ways refers to it as “mass” and or “Eucharist”.

And there you are.

GKC

 

[a_cermak]

I’m in Chicago, most of the TEC churches I’ve visited (and I don’t even know if there are any continuum churches up here) are very much on the Oxford movement side of the church. Most of the churches have a sacrarium, emphasize the 7 Sacraments, the 39 Articles are considered quaint, but not relevant. I think it’s probably because most of the Episcopalian churches up here are populated by large numbers of former Catholics (Catholicism being the majority religion here). I’ve heard priests mention that as many as half of their parishioners are former Catholics.

It would seem that when Catholics join the mainline, they seem to want the same experience of Church that they left behind (although the one time I received the Eucharist whilst kneeling at an altar rail was in a TEC church). This would make them very different from those formers who join Evangelical churches.

I do suspect that region and the dominant religious culture of the regions plays a part in how religion is expressed (and also where the former Catholics go).

 

[GKC]

I’m in Chicago, most of the TEC churches I’ve visited (and I don’t even know if there are any continuum churches up here) are very much on the Oxford movement side of the church. Most of the churches have a sacrarium, emphasize the 7 Sacraments, the 39 Articles are considered quaint, but not relevant. I think it’s probably because most of the Episcopalian churches up here are populated by large numbers of former Catholics (Catholicism being the majority religion here). I’ve heard priests mention that as many as half of their parishioners are former Catholics.

It would seem that when Catholics join the mainline, they seem to want the same experience of Church that they left behind (although the one time I received the Eucharist whilst kneeling at an altar rail was in a TEC church). This would make them very different from those formers who join Evangelical churches.

I do suspect that region and the dominant religious culture of the regions plays a part in how religion is expressed (and also where the former Catholics go).

Yep. Sounds like a nest of ACs.

GKC

 

[4Squarebaby]

I was thinking about a recent comment made on another thread that Charleston, South Carolina is “more catholic” in comparison to metro Atlanta. And understood it to mean that Protestants [Anglican/ Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, etc.] are “more catholic” * in Charleston than in perhaps other areas of the nation. Maybe there’s a higher percentage of Roman Catholics in Charleston than Atlanta and how that may influence other Christian denominations.

In the Northeast [New York, Boston, Philly] there are large numbers of Roman Catholics; and the Episcopal and Lutheran parishes tend to also be Anglo & Evangelical-Catholic [strong emphasis on catholic ritual/ worship, church interiors look similar to Roman Catholic parishes, refer to the Holy Communion as the “Mass” etc.].

Is there a correlation between heavily Roman Catholic populations and how some Protestants appear more catholic-like? Would the same effect occur where, for example Baptists are strong [Texas]? Would Catholic, Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian churches be “more Protestant” in worship in areas that are dominated by Baptists?

Hope I am making sense. Any thoughts?*

I think it may be more a residual effect of the relative numbers which Protestant groups settled in a community. If a significant percentage of say Lutherans settled a city then the churches would maintain that character. Where as if the church was represented by a circuit riding Holiness preacher then the low church forms would predominate.

Would the local mainline church today emphasize the the dramatic trappings over business suit casual in another community today if a significant number of Catholics were around? I have no ideal that is not my world since being in a swing denomination, the United Methodist as a child.

 

[a_cermak]

Yep. Sounds like a nest of ACs.

GKC

I actually thought, before running into you on these forums, that this was normative for TEC in the US. I sojourned with TEC for a bit before deciding that Christianity as a whole was not a good fit for me and reverting to my current religion. I still have a high opinion of Grace and Father Shawn.

 

[GKC]

I actually thought, before running into you on these forums, that this was normative for TEC in the US. I sojourned with TEC for a bit before deciding that Christianity as a whole was not a good fit for me and reverting to my current religion. I still have a high opinion of Grace and Father Shawn.

I wish it was normative. Little is, in fact.

Or even commonplace. Commonplace would be good.

GKC (Anglicanus-Catholicus)

 

[EvangelCatholic]

While thinking about the Oxford Movement in the Anglican Communion, perhaps the number of Anglo-Catholic parishes in America had more to do with that liturgical renewal than influence by the Roman Catholic populations of a certain locale.

But Lutherans migrating to America from Europe found themselves in a different Christian environment than, for example, Denmark or Sweden where the majority is Lutheran with hardly any other Christian denominations, as least in the 1800’s. Lutherans were viewed with suspicion by American Protestants. Not only did they worship in a non-English language but built churches that looked decidedly ‘catholic’. The pressure to fit in, especially in heavily Protestant regions like the Midwest, had something to do with anti-catholic tendencies for Lutherans.

 

[GKC]

While thinking about the Oxford Movement in the Anglican Communion, perhaps the number of Anglo-Catholic parishes in America had more to do with that liturgical renewal than influence by the Roman Catholic populations of a certain locale.

But Lutherans migrating to America from Europe found themselves in a different Christian environment than, for example, Denmark or Sweden where the majority is Lutheran with hardly any other Christian denominations, as least in the 1800’s. Lutherans were viewed with suspicion by American Protestants. Not only did they worship in a non-English language but built churches that looked decidedly ‘catholic’. The pressure to fit in, especially in heavily Protestant regions like the Midwest, had something to do with anti-catholic tendencies for Lutherans.

I suspect your supposition is correct.

GKC

 

[Peter_J]

Interesting, however that Catholics noted the full communion between Lutheran/ Anglican/ Episcopalian as a favorable signal for further convergence.

Do you have that quote?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Do you have that quote?

I couldn’t find the citation I’m looking for but found this, if it helps:

1. Lutherans also need repentance and conversion to take steps toward healing the wounds of our division. They must constantly reassess some of their own traditions of ordained ministry. Regarding “the order of the church and the various ranks in the church” including bishops, the Apology of the Augsburg Confession testifies that the “greatest desire” of the Reformers was to retain this ministerial structure.174 This desire stated in the Lutheran Confessions still is normative for present-day Lutheranism. The office of bishop as regional pastor is the normal polity of the church, "a gift of the Holy Spirit,"175 and implies bishops in communion with other ministers exercising episcopé. A church may be compelled to abandon such a shared episcopal office for a time, but should return to it whenever possible. Recent actions by the ELCA and some other Lutheran churches to reclaim shared episcopal ordering, both among themselves and as an aspect of communion with Anglican churches, are signs of a willingness to engage in such a reassessment.176
   usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/koinonia-of-salvation.cfm

 

[Peter_J]

I couldn’t find the citation I’m looking for but found this, if it helps:

Thanks.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Another Catholic influence on Lutherans in America was the Cursillo Movement. At one time it appeared that every parish in my area [including Episcopal & Roman Catholic] were conducting Cursillo retreats. This is where I became intimately exposed to other Christians and stayed active in Cursillos for many years.