Catholic - Jehovah's Witness Marriage

[Allegra]

PS- If you do decide to continue in this relationship, I think you should find out what these “alternatives” are and how effective they are, preferably from an unbiased source.

 

[1ke]

Can a Catholic find someone who agrees with him on the rejection of the use of artificial birth control? It is fairly difficult to do so. The Catholic may have to compromise his beliefs on that issue.

No, a Catholic cannot “compromise” on an intrinsic evil. This is another example of a Catholic needing to make a decision that such a person is not a potential marriage partner.

Also, notice that many health plans push women into using artificial birth control after they have given birth. If the woman refuses to accept it, the nurse makes a weird face and implies that the woman is stupid.

making a face is hardly “pushing” using contraception. Simply say “no thank you.”

My Ob/Gyn has asked about contraception in the past. Politely but firmly telling her my position sufficed.

So many times the Catholic is pressured into compromising her beliefs. Not always of course.

Hopefully the Catholic has a backbone.

 

[AlNg]

Your tolerance for standing against pressure seems unusually low

Yes. That is because I am a very sensitive person. Sorry about that.

 

[AlNg]

No, a Catholic cannot “compromise” on an intrinsic evil.

That is not what I understood from a priest. He said that if your wife is using the pill and the husband objects, then the husband is still allowed to engage with his wife, even though she is using ABC and he knows it. And the husband does not have to get into loud arguments with his wife, he only has to state his objection respectfully every once in a while. And it would not be a sin for the husband.
That is my understanding. Correct me if you think that this is not Catholic teaching today and if you think that the husband will be committing a mortal sin, even if he objects to the ABC that the wife is using.

 

[AlNg]

If you do decide to continue in this relationship, I think you should find out what these “alternatives” are and how effective they are, preferably from an unbiased source.

Do you think that the medical journal Heart, Lung, and Circulation is a biased source?

 

[pianistclare]

If you ever got engaged to her, I think her family would likely object anyway.
I don’t see this as a good combination.

 

[1ke]

That is not what I understood from a priest. He said that if your wife is using the pill and the husband objects, then the husband is still allowed to engage with his wife, even though she is using ABC and he knows it.

If you are already married and your spouse begins contracepting, then under the pastoral care of your confessors, one may be able to engage in intercourse to preserve the marriage— again maybe and under the guidance of your confessor and meeting certain guidelines. See the document Vademecum for Confessors. The non-contracepting spouse may be the innocent spouse in this case.

HOWEVER, we are not talking about a spouse. We are talking about someone who is not married and is dating. In such a case, planning to contracept in marriage at the behest of one spouse is actually participating in the contraception, not a situation of being an innocent spouse. You can’t go into a marriage agreeing to contracept. If you are already in a marriage and are the innocent spouse, that is a different situation.

In a situation where a Catholic knows ahead of time their potential spouse has no intention of following Church teaching, that is a case where the discernment would lead away from marriage. That is the point of discernment, ruling out people who are not compatible for marriage.

 

[AlNg]

You can’t go into a marriage agreeing to contracept.

Suppose you don’t agree to contracept but your fiancee is not sure about it and gives reasons why it might be OK. Is it a mortal sin to marry her now or should you compromise since the plans for the marriage have already been made?

 

[1ke]

Suppose you don’t agree to contracept but your fiancee is not sure about it and gives reasons why it might be OK. Is it a mortal sin to marry her now or should you compromise since the plans for the marriage have already been made?

You need to talk about these things WAY before you get engaged. If you are not both fully on board with the teachings of the Church, you should NOT proceed to marriage.

 

[1ke]

the plans for the marriage have already been made?

Plans are not a marriage. Vows have not been spoken. One should not go into a marriage with a major decision such as this unsettled. No, you can’t agree to contracept. I know you want me to say that you can, but you can’t. You cannot claim to be innocent of the contraception if you are agreeing to it beforehand.

It is not OK and can never be “ok”. If your fiancé thinks it can be, you have the wrong fiancé.

 

[AlNg]

If you are not both fully on board with the teachings of the Church, you should NOT proceed to marriage.

So you should cancel the wedding if your fiancee is not sure that she could follow the rule on contraceptives if she has six children and sees herself as possibly being terribly worn out by then?

 

[AlNg]

If your fiancé thinks it can be, you have the wrong fiancé.

But suppose you do not think it is OK but she has questions about her health and is just not sure she could follow the rule after having six children. Would it be a mortal sin to go through with the wedding plans even if you are opposed to using contraceptives, or should you compromise somewhat.

 

[1ke]

So you should cancel the wedding if your fiancee is not sure that she could follow the rule on contraceptives

Uh, yeah. That’s the point of dating-- discerning. You don’t marry someone who you’ve discerned wants you to contracept in your marriage.

if she has six children and sees herself as possibly being terribly worn out by then?

No one has stated that you have to have “six” or any specific number of children. I grow weary of this red herring.

There are moral means of spacing children. You and your spouse need to be ready and willing to embrace that. The moral means of spacing children are periodic continence or complete continence.

 

[AlNg]

No one has stated that you have to have “six” or any specific number of children.

i never said that anyone required the couple to have six children. It is the couples decision and they are open to having six children without anyone requiring it.

 

[1ke]

But suppose you do not think it is OK but she has questions about her health and is just not sure she could follow the rule after having six children.

Again, if you need to space or plan children there are moral means to do so. Contraception is intrinsically evil. That means it is NEVER a moral means of spacing children. That means it doesn’t matter what sort of “what if” you throw out the answer is the same: no.

She doesn’t have to have six children. She can have zero children, one child, ten children. the answer is the same: there are moral and immoral means of spacing children. Contraception is immoral, always. Spacing through periodic abstinence (or complete abstinence if it is a very serious reason) is the moral means.

Would it be a mortal sin to go through with the wedding plans even if you are opposed to using contraceptives, or should you compromise somewhat.

You cannot compromise. If you are in the dating stage, that is the time to discern if it is a good idea or a bad idea to get married. You can’t go into a marriage planning to contracept. That is indeed grave matter.

This is the time to have the serious conversations and to be on the same page or to discern that this isn’t the relationship that will lead you to holiness.

This is something to talk to your pastor about.

It doesn’t matter how many times or how many ways you ask the answer is the same: contraception is grave matter against the sixth commandment and can never be chosen. Never. Ever. Never.

Let me ask you this. If your future spouse wanted to keep her options open on abortion, what would you say? Because, you know, she might need to have an abortion after six kids. Would you then be so ready to “compromise” and still marry someone KNOWING they kept this “option” open?

Contraception is a moral evil. Abortion is a moral evil. So, why would you be willing to choose a moral evil? Why would you be open to the moral evil of contraception but not the moral evil of abortion?

 

[1ke]

Then if they are open to having six children, great. If after one, two, three… six, seven, however many they believe they need to space indefinitely then there are moral means to do so.

There are moral and immoral means regardless of how many children the couple has or wants to have or ends up having. Contraception is a moral evil and can never be chosen.

Why would you want to marry someone who wants you to participate in a grave offense against the six commandment?

 

[AlNg]

Why would you want to marry someone who wants you to participate in a grave offense against the six commandment?

Because in the E. Orthodox Church, with the permission of your pastor, it is not a sin to use contraception after having five or six children. And I thought that the Roman Catholic Church is open to reunion with the Eastern Orthodox church. If it is such a grave thing, why is the Roman Catholic church open to reunion with the Eastern Orthodox church and why does the Roman Catholic Church permit the Eastern Orthodox to receive holy Communion (although the Eastern Orthodox do not agree with their people receiving holy communion elsewhere, similar to how Catholic are not supposed to receive Communion in an Anglican church, although the Anglican church generally may allow it. )

 

[1ke]

And I thought that the Roman Catholic Church is open to reunion with the Eastern Orthodox church.

Certainly that is the goal of all ecumenism.

If it is such a grave thing, why is the Roman Catholic church open to reunion with the Eastern Orthodox church

The Church cannot compromise the truth in the process of ecumenism-- the documents of the Church make that clear (such as Ut Unum Sint).

I am sorry if you understood the Church’s desire to heal the schisms and separations and its overtures to the Orthodox and others as implying that the truths of the faith could change or be ignored. No, they cannot.

For instance, those coming to the Catholic Church from the Anglican churches into the Ordinariate would need to embrace Catholic teaching on such matters. The Anglican church embraces contraception. So, those coming from the Anglican to the Catholic Church would need to reject contraception, just as any other person coming into full communion with the Catholic Church.

why does the Roman Catholic Church permit the Eastern Orthodox to receive holy Communion

There are situations where Orthodox can receive some of the Catholic sacraments, however not indiscriminately. They must be properly disposed.

Canon 844 §3. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed.

 

[TheLittleLady]

This applies to those who are already married.

When you are dating, discerning marriage, that is the time to be very frank and honest about “deal breakers”. Why would someone decide to fall in love and marry someone who has honestly told you they do not have the same understanding of marriage as you do? Why borrow heartache?

 

[TheLittleLady]

Furthermore, there are lots of non-Catholic women out there who choose to forgo ABC completely for health reasons

Very true. Women are waking up to the dangers of hormonal ABC.