Catholic leader Cardinal Keith O'Brien clashes with David Cameron on same-sex marriage plans

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telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9121354/Catholic-leader-Cardinal-Keith-OBrien-clashes-with-David-Cameron-on-same-sex-marriage-plans.html

*Cardinal Keith O’Brien, the leader of the Catholic Church in Scotland, says the proposals to allow same-sex unions are “madness” and a “grotesque subversion of a universally accepted human right”. *

Thank goodness, for Cardinal O’Brien for saying it as it is!.

Full article link of Cardial O’Brien’s talk. telegraph.co.uk/comment/9121424/We-cannot-afford-to-indulge-this-madness.html

D*isingenuously, the Government has suggested that same-sex marriage wouldn’t be compulsory and churches could choose to opt out. This is staggeringly arrogant.

No Government has the moral authority to dismantle the universally understood meaning of marriage.

Imagine for a moment that the Government had decided to legalise slavery but assured us that “no one will be forced to keep a slave”. This universal truth is so self-evident that it shouldn’t need to be repeated. If the Government attempts to demolish a universally recognised human right, they will have forfeited the trust which society has placed in them and their intolerance will shame the United Kingdom in the eyes of the world. *

However, I was dismayed to hear, yesterday, that the recently evicted Irish government party, FF, had two motions passed backing same-sex marriage and same-sex couples adopting, by their delegates - unbelievable.

irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0304/breaking1.html
 
While I’m happy to abide by current church teachings on this and would not consider it marriage in a religious sense, only a civil one, I’m seriously confused as to what universally accepted human right is being subverted here. What specific human right is he talking about?
 
I believe he’s talking about the right to a mother and father and whilst I’m commenting let me just say CARDINAL O’BRIEN IS THE MAN! 👍
 
There’s a universally accepted human right to have a mother and a father? 🤷
 
saraih said:
There’s a universally accepted human right to have a mother and a father? 🤷
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I believe he may have been referring to the human right of children, i.e. that they are created through the ‘natural’ male / female procreative act, as opposed to IVF. I agree it would be difficult to state it was a human right to have a mother and father, as one or both may die at or before birth.
 
The scot cardinal speaks of “human rights” “slavery” “Redefining reality”. I cannot help but be repulsed by these comments when 2 days ago on “60 Minutes” we see reported that the coverup of priests raping 8-yr-olds IN THE CHAPEL - the coverup of this sort of abomination by this man’s order was actively going on as late as 2009. This would actually be the sexual “slavery” and violation of a small child’s “human rights” and a “redefining of reality” beyond compare in the history of the world. Given this grave sin in his own back yard, wouldn’t this individual do better to direct his energy toward healing the damaged lives of children of the British Isles & families he is responsible for rather than sow more fear and discord about children and families in the world. Where is the reconciliation of Christ, I pray? Is there no shame? The insult heaped upon injury offends we Catholics. And in Ireland mass attendance has dropped from 90% to 2%. How can the Church survive such ongoing immoral leadership? I fear for this.
The Cardinal’s faith must be great, given his station, his hope for the church, high but what are we told in chapel?
“And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”
what would Jesus be doing for the violated children? What would he say to the cardinal’s divisive words? May God forgive him and help us all.
 
saraih said:
While I’m happy to abide by current church teachings on this and would not consider it marriage in a religious sense, only a civil one, I’m seriously confused as to what universally accepted human right is being subverted here.** What specific human right is he talking about?**
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In the declaration of universal human rights, marriage is stated as right and is defined as a relationship between a man and a woman.

The Cardinal is saying no-one has the power to subvert this definition.
 
*And in Ireland mass attendance has dropped from 90% to 2%. *

The last line in your post is untrue. I live in Ireland and go to different masses/churches/times each Sunday and they’re always packed, similarly with my other family members who go daily in another county in Ireland, to myself. These figures have no doubt been compiled by the usual anti-catholic propaganda brigade.
 
With all due respect. I only quote the Archbishop himself. I would not quote an anti-Catholic. Neither would I deny the truth as you have done.
“Archbishop Martin was speaking a week after a report found that weekly Mass attendance in Dublin is down to 14 per cent (164,000 out of a Catholic population of 1,162,000). More than 30 years ago I heard such figures about some parishes in poorer parts of the city. The archbishop said some time ago that in such parishes now Mass attendance is about two or three per cent.” - Dec. 14, 2011 Pray for the church.
 
MrT said:
With all due respect. I only quote the Archbishop himself. I would not quote an anti-Catholic. Neither would I deny the truth as you have done.
“Archbishop Martin was speaking a week after a report found that weekly Mass attendance in Dublin is down to 14 per cent (164,000 out of a Catholic population of 1,162,000). More than 30 years ago I heard such figures about some parishes in poorer parts of the city. The archbishop said some time ago that in such parishes now Mass attendance is about two or three per cent.” - Dec. 14, 2011 Pray for the church.
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I am not denying the truth, I can only observe numbers at masses each Sunday, I attend, in Dublin. Here are two reports from the Irish Catholic in 2011 and a European social survey 2009/10. Possibly Archbishop Martin was misquoted, and/or the % could be 14% in Dublin but the overall % is higher.

irishcatholic.ie/site/content/where-now-weekly-mass-attendance-michael-kelly

D*ecline in Church attendance in Ireland happened long before revelations about abuse and the subsequent cover up. Polls show that in 1981 a staggering 88 per cent of Irish people attended Mass at least once-a-month with 82pc attending weekly. By 2006 that figure had slipped to just 48pc for weekly Mass attendance while that figure climbs to 67pc when those who attend at least once-a-month are factored in. Subsequent polls have been fairly consistent putting weekly Mass attendance somewhere between 45pc and 48pc. These are remarkably high figures by western European standards (the latest figures for Italy are 22pc and approximately 10pc for France).
*
cinews.ie/article.php?artid=8702

*In spite of a huge drop in Sunday Mass attendance, Ireland has the highest rate of weekly mass going in Europe.

This is according to the two most recent surveys on the topic; The European Social Survey, (2008 – 2009), which puts weekly Mass attendance at 51 % for Ireland, and the International Social Science Project, (2008 – 2009), which has the Republic top of the league of Catholic countries, with 44% weekly (or more often) mass attendance.

In this survey, 39% of Polish Catholics go to Sunday Mass, 23% of Italians, 19% of Spanish and 15% of Austrians. Last weekend Cardinal Seán Brady appealed to lapsed Catholics to return to the practise of their faith during this year of the Eucharist. *
 
MrT said:
The scot cardinal speaks of “human rights” “slavery” “Redefining reality”. I cannot help but be repulsed by these comments when 2 days ago on “60 Minutes” we see reported that the coverup of priests raping 8-yr-olds IN THE CHAPEL - the coverup of this sort of abomination by this man’s order was actively going on as late as 2009. This would actually be the sexual “slavery” and violation of a small child’s “human rights” and a “redefining of reality” beyond compare in the history of the world. Given this grave sin in his own back yard, wouldn’t this individual do better to direct his energy toward healing the damaged lives of children of the British Isles & families he is responsible for rather than sow more fear and discord about children and families in the world. Where is the reconciliation of Christ, I pray? Is there no shame? The insult heaped upon injury offends we Catholics. And in Ireland mass attendance has dropped from 90% to 2%. How can the Church survive such ongoing immoral leadership? I fear for this.
The Cardinal’s faith must be great, given his station, his hope for the church, high but what are we told in chapel?
“And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”
what would Jesus be doing for the violated children? What would he say to the cardinal’s divisive words? May God forgive him and help us all.
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What you speak of is the fruit of homosexuals infiltrating the priesthood. So what will be the fruit of homosexuals infiltrating marriage? Don’t be surprised when it’s something similar and evil. Only, they’ll want to legalize it then, and call it a right.

Good for the bishop for speaking the Truth.
 
incense said:
What you speak of is the fruit of homosexuals infiltrating the priesthood. So what will be the fruit of homosexuals infiltrating marriage? Don’t be surprised when it’s something similar and evil. Only, they’ll want to legalize it then, and call it a right.

Good for the bishop for speaking the Truth.
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They have always been there, the difference is now they are acknowledged to exist.
 
incense said:
What you speak of is the fruit of homosexuals infiltrating the priesthood. So what will be the fruit of homosexuals infiltrating marriage? Don’t be surprised when it’s something similar and evil. Only, they’ll want to legalize it then, and call it a right.

Good for the bishop for speaking the Truth.
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Already in the making. Some states are already looking into lowering the age of consent.
 
You are entitled to have any perverse fantasy you wish but I’m not sure this would be the place to share it. Beyond your homo imaginings about pedophiles, there is no respected scientific link between pedophilia and sexual preference. If we love the church we need to face hard facts, not to feed our fantasies.
“The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.”
psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
How would our Lord view the false witness of vilifying a minority group vs. the way of the truth and the healing of the children? Hubris or humility and contrition? The church has taught us well. The cardinal’s statements sadden us all.
 
MrT said:
You are entitled to have any perverse fantasy you wish but I’m not sure this would be the place to share it. Beyond your homo imaginings about pedophiles, there is no respected scientific link between pedophilia and sexual preference. If we love the church we need to face hard facts, not to feed our fantasies.
“The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.”
psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
How would our Lord view the false witness of vilifying a minority group vs. the way of the truth and the healing of the children? Hubris or humility and contrition? The church has taught us well. The cardinal’s statements sadden us all.
Click to expand...
“The cardinal’s statements sadden us all”
You speak for yourself, Mr T. The vast majority of right thinking Catholics support every word that the Cardinal has spoken.
Homosexual “marriage” is contrary to the common good because it’s a dead end - it quite literally has no future.
The proper role of marriage in society is to provide safe and stable homes for children to grow up in, where they are physically, emotionally, and spiritually nourished, and where they learn how to be good citizens through the care and teaching of two role models - their mother and father. The family is the essential building block of society. Society itself is actually comprised of groups of families, communities in other words, working together to provide for each others’ needs through work, education, and through religious and social activities.

A small minority of families not buying into this model isn’t harmful, but when the whole of society itself decides that marriage isn’t really about producing children, or providing for them, that rather, it has some other purpose, for example, the indulgence of purely sexual passions, then the future of society is literally being sabotaged, because without safe, happy, well-educated children, society literally has no future.
When marriage is redefined to exclude children, which gay marriage does by definition, then the outlook for children in general is bleak indeed.
Sex isn’t meant to be an end in itself, which is what sex between same sex couples is. In purely natural terms homosexuality can never be a legitimate expression of sexuality because it is so manifestly unnatural. The very act is a parody of the real thing. The relationship is both sterile and self-indulgent.
This demand for “a free for all” in human relationships will produce children who will be poorly educated, morally and sexually confused and lacking a social conscience. Children are the adults of tomorrow, the society of tomorrow. Children are quite literally our future.
 
I am not sure what the child abuse scandal in the church has to do with Cardinal O’Brien’s comments regarding same sex marriage, the church recognises the horror and devastating effect it has had on the victims involved has made measures to ensure all children are safe. There are also numerous threads on this site regarding the abuse scandal, which is a seperate matter.

The problems with legalising same sex marriage have also been discussed on a number of threads, and although COB’s comments may not ‘be liked’ or seen as ‘controversial’ they hit the nail on the head. The definition of Marriage as is per Webster;-

*Webster as of 2008 defines marriage as: “(1): the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as a husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law. (2): the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage.”

Here is the Webster 1828 dictionary definition of marriage: “(1): The act of uniting a man and woman for life; wedlock; the legal union of a man and woman for life. Marriage is a contract both civil and religious, by which the parties engage to live together in mutual affection and fidelity, till death shall separate them. Marriage was instituted by God himself for the purpose of preventing the promiscuous intercourse of the sexes, for promoting domestic felicity, and for securing the maintenance and education of children.”*

Marriage as a term has always been the joining of a male and female to form a stable unit to procreate, and hence offer stability for offspring. If, same sex marriage is made legal then what is the ‘definition’ of marriage. The term cannot be the same it would now be changed. If two men/women can ‘marry’, it then opens up the door for example, for Fathers to marry their daughter or son, and Mothers to marry their son or daughter, as the ‘natural law’ will have been abandoned, and hence anything goes. Incest, which is recognised as a sin in the bible, as is the homosexual act, is, also, from an (non-religious) evolutionary viewpoint not the best way to ensure the survival of the human race - and obviously, homosexual relationships (without the interference from science) would mean total total annihilation of the human race as there would be no procreation.

Civil partnerships between SS couples is acceptable as it is a legal contract ensuring the legal/financial rights of two individuals as a unit/couple. But ‘marriage’ as a term would have to be totally changed, a term that has been with mankind throughout history.
 
This is being discussed at this moment on TV, BB1 (UK) on a government question time programme. I’ts like listening to 6 yrs old talking about it. Equal rights, everyone should be able to marry, yada, yada. One person said that priests (COB) spouting against SS marriage should be accused of ‘hate’ crimes! The world’s totally mad - or there is so little religion, no-one has a clue what and why the CC’s reasons are. Accusing the CC of homophobia, etc… needless to say they have not read the CCC’s section on homosexuality, or PBV1 letter regarding same.

*2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm

Ratzinger’s “Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons,” 1986, as reported by National Catholic Reporter
Code: 
* Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered to an intrinsic moral evil, and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.

* It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the church's pastors wherever it occurs... The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in work, in action and in law.*
 
pepipop said:
This is being discussed at this moment on TV, BB1 (UK) on a government question time programme. I’ts like listening to 6 yrs old talking about it. Equal rights, everyone should be able to marry, yada, yada. One person said that priests (COB) spouting against SS marriage should be accused of ‘hate’ crimes! The world’s totally mad - or there is so little religion, no-one has a clue what and why the CC’s reasons are. Accusing the CC of homophobia, etc… needless to say they have not read the CCC’s section on homosexuality, or PBV1 letter regarding same.
Click to expand...
I was watching it as well. Janice Atkinson-Small did manage to raise that there is an extremist factor within the gay lobby and distrust of purported safeguards for faith communities. She was spot on. The gay lobby campaign is equal choice. If and when legislation is enacted to include same sex couples, all other laws, rules and regulations which are inconsistent with the provisions of that legislation will be repealed, amended or modified accordingly. It only takes a Catholic member of the radical gay wing to challenge the Catholic Church on the back of equality laws. And, it only takes a gay affirming legislator to propose and secure an amendment at the eleventh hour to remove or modify safeguards.
 
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