Catholic leader claims Poles could split Church [UK]

[didymus]

tinyurl.com/25pqel

Catholic leader claims Poles could split Church

The leader of the country’s Roman Catholics has sparked a row by accusing immigrants of creating a separate church in Britain. Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, the Archbishop of Westminster, urged the Polish community to do more to learn English and integrate into local parishes, claiming the Catholic Church in the UK was in danger of dividing along ethnic lines as the number of Polish-speaking churches rose.

Leading Polish community figures said they felt “violated” and “spiritually raped” by his words and called for talks on the issue.

. . . .

However, Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor said: "I’m quite concerned that the Poles are creating a separate church in Britain. I would want them to be part of the Catholic life of this country.
“I would hope those responsible for the Polish church here, and the Poles themselves, will be aware that they should become a part of local parishes as soon as possible when they learn enough of the language.”

Despite the archbishop’s also using his Christmas message to appeal to the nation to be more welcoming to immigrants, Grazyna Sikorska, of the Polish Catholic Mission for England and Wales, said the community had been upset.

I don’t get the Cardinal’s concern – it isn’t as if the Poles could somehow oust the present Church leadership in the UK. Shouldn’t he just be happy that he has thousands of devout Catholics in his churches?

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

This looks like a job for…

TLM!

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

Well, of course. Polarization is not healthy for the Church.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

If Mass was in Latin, there would be no problems with who gets which language…

In Christ,
Rand

 

[KathleenElsie]

We are one Holy Catholic Church. In one parish building in PGH, PA there is a Mass celebrated in Latin, Viet Namese and English. Down the road is one in Spanish, around the corner is another in Chinese and spread around our very ethnic community many others languages.

I believe this would all be taken care of if Latin was the language for the actual Mass. But, no matter what we are all ONE CHURCH.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

If Mass was in Latin, there would be no problems with who gets which language…

In Christ,
Rand

Amen for the TLM. My local parish (which does not celebrate TLM) has a Spanish Mass on Sunday afternoon for the Latin immigrants in our Town. Though I love the Idea of outreach. I feel that we must incorporate these fellow catholic fully into the parish. and having Separate Mass is not doing so. If the TLM was the Only form we would not have this problem.

Peace in the Lord.

Scott

 

[MelanieAnne]

Another solution would be for people to learn the common language of the new country they are living in. When my grandparents came to this country, that’s what they did. Learning the language of the country you live in used to be considered “normal”.

 

[Tonks40]

The cardinal’s fears are ungrounded. It’s based on inexperience in seeing an ethnic population shift.

Here in So. California, especially where I live in the southern part of San Diego county, due to the close proximity of Mexico, the congregations here are predominantly Hispanic. This has NOT caused any sort of ethnic polarization, and the Church in our area still remain as one.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Another solution would be for people to learn the common language of the new country they are living in. When my grandparents came to this country, that’s what they did. Learning the language of the country you live in used to be considered “normal”.

WHOA! What an idea! Too bad it’ll only work in this circumstance, and not for any other English-speaking country with a new wave of mostly Catholic immigrants…:doh2:

 

[ElizaE]

I am Polish and I live in the United States. Many people feel the celebrating Mass in their native tongue is less distracting and they can focus on the Mass more. I just do not see the big deal. We are all one Church. Isn’t that what Catholic means, “universal”. So what does it matter what language is used if it brings people to the Eucharist and to God. We have a Polish parish in the area. It is too far to drive every Sunday for me, but many Polish people do go there for Mass.

Perhaps that Archbishop is concerned because the numbers in the English-speaking parishes is dwindling so he would like the Polish-speakers to be more involved to bring in numbers. I see his point. With Britain overall becoming more secularized, he wants to unite the people. However, I do not think that he did it the right way. He should add a Polish-speaking Mass and then people would sometimes make it to the Polish Mass and other times to the English Mass as their schedules allow.

 

[vern_humphrey]

When I was 10 years old, we went to Peru. We lived in Piura, which had electricity only from 6:00 PM to midnight, no hot water, and so on.

We went on a scouting mission to find the church. I was shocked – the church was empty! No pews, no kneelers, just a bare stone floor. And the statues and artwork – the most garish things you ever saw! (Of course, it was all native indian artwork.)

At the first mass, we were jammed in – chest to back – in a crowd of barrel-chested, barefoot indians. The indians spoke only Cholo. Here and there above the crowd you could see the heads of blue-eyed Castillians – who spoke only Spanish (which they called Castilliano). And we Americans spoke only English.

Then the mass started, and everyone responded in Latin. I felt a lot better – I knew I was in my Father’s house.

 

[rien]

Interesting.

Many Polish catholics in the US left the church in the 1800s over domination by English speaking American mainly Irish prelates. There were other issues too but it all came down to “control”.

Its how the Polish National Catholic Church came about here. Still present. Still strong and growing.

Looks like something similar could happen in England which would be truly ironic.

 

[KathleenElsie]

When I was 10 years old, we went to Peru. We lived in Piura, which had electricity only from 6:00 PM to midnight, no hot water, and so on.

We went on a scouting mission to find the church. I was shocked – the church was empty! No pews, no kneelers, just a bare stone floor. And the statues and artwork – the most garish things you ever saw! (Of course, it was all native indian artwork.)

At the first mass, we were jammed in – chest to back – in a crowd of barrel-chested, barefoot indians. The indians spoke only Cholo. Here and there above the crowd you could see the heads of blue-eyed Castillians – who spoke only Spanish (which they called Castilliano). And we Americans spoke only English.

Then the mass started, and everyone responded in Latin. I felt a lot better – I knew I was in my Father’s house.

 

[averheyen]

I live in Canada, and in the city I live in, the Polish community has it’s own seperate Catholic Church. They even do the mass in Polish.

I never had a problem with that, I just figured, if there’s enough of a Polish community that would justify a mass in Polish, all the power to having it.

 

[mystified]

In Southern California, there is a Polish parish that has the TLM, the NO in Polish and the NO in English. Everyone seems cool with the arrangement.

 

[gam197]

originally posted by mystified
In Southern California, there is a Polish parish that has the TLM, the NO in Polish and the NO in English. Everyone seems cool with the arrangement.

Sixty years ago I would have felt this was OK because that is how churches were but not today. There were the Polish, French, and Italian Churches but my parents came to this country and learned the English to participate. I, too, wish they would bring back the Latin at least for one Mass.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

The problem is that the Church in the UK has probably not had the the experience of immigration of Catholics like the US has in the past. In the US, many parishes were set up for specific Ethnic/National groups.

Here in Southfield, there were 6 parishes until last year, now there are three. Two that survived were the Lithuanian and Albanian parishes. The other 4 merged into one parish. The diocese could of easily merged the two other parishes into the one, but they did not.

 

[averheyen]

In Southern California, there is a Polish parish that has the TLM, the NO in Polish and the NO in English. Everyone seems cool with the arrangement.

Yeah, same. Everyone’s cool with it.

 

[JW10631]

Oh, what a terrible thing, all those Polocks wanting to go to Mass in Polish. Drat those Polocks!

(Sarcasm off. I am Polish).

The good Cardinal in England - in fact, most of the Catholic Church leadership in England, Wales and Ireland want nothing to do with the Traditional Latin Mass. For proof, reference Father John Zuhlsdorf’s blog, What Does The Prayer Really Say?

I think the good Cardinal should take a trip to Poland and learn what it’s like to live in a country with a Catholic culture instead of whining about what language the Polish immigrants want to use to worship God.

Latin was eliminated from the Mass (it wasn’t supposed to be eliminated) when I was 7. I never had the opportunity to learn Polish, but I have heard some Polish hymns, and they are far better than anything penned by Marty Haugen.

Not to nitpick, Vern, but…
The word is castellano. My wife is from Colombia and I know just a little about it. otherwise, good post.

 

[Shoshana]

Vern, excellent post!

Although I was only 11 when English was used as the language in mass…although i was french in a french parish. The whole thing about Latin is that it unified the whole Roman Catholic world (I think) prior to the changes. No matter where you went, it was in Latin! In the Vatican, In Israel, in the catacombs…it was in latin. IMHO, I believe it would again…let alone it would also bring back the mystery (TLM). I much prefer TLM. The focus is on God and not the dynamics of the priest.

As far as immigrants, I hate, hate, hate to see people immigrate and not assimilate english in their conversation with the world around them. Quebec is a good example. Although Canada is considered french/english, french is in the minority…but our french schools teach EVERYTHING in french but the english language. If the kids speak english in the school yard and is cuaght (after three warnings) get suspended. Now how crazy is that?In my time, half the subjects were in french (the arts) and all the sciences in english. The minority have become the protocol!

I am not from Quebec and would not want to be…my ancestry come from France and England and even De Guaule did his damage here. I believe we shoudl learn both/english (here in Canada) or any other language is a bonus for anyone. Knowing only one language is not always good.

Being french, I can compain!