Catholic leader claims Poles could split Church [UK]

  • Thread starter Thread starter didymus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
People don’t like to ‘integrate’.

The only reason why they ever did in America was because immigrants were discrminated to the point where they gave in and assimilated.

That doesn’t happen anymore, if anything you’re better off if you’re a minority.

Oh and just so you know, all Mass before V2 were in Latin, and ethnic parishes still existed. Look at Chicago, where I live. One Parish was for the Italians, another for the Poles, another for the Germans.
 
MelanieAnne said:
Another solution would be for people to learn the common language of the new country they are living in. When my grandparents came to this country, that’s what they did. Learning the language of the country you live in used to be considered “normal”. 🤷
Click to expand...
I agree but It was also common long ago for immigrants to form parishes built around their nationality. My great-grandfather was an Italian immigrant and my great-grandmother was the daughter of a French Canadian immigrants. He attended an Italian church in the area and she attended a French church in the area. Even though the mass was in Latin, I would assume that the homilies would be in the language spoken by the parishioners.

They also both spoke English. Churches at the time would teach English to it’s parishioners. This helped both the Church and the parishioners.
 
MelanieAnne said:
Another solution would be for people to learn the common language of the new country they are living in. When my grandparents came to this country, that’s what they did. Learning the language of the country you live in used to be considered “normal”. 🤷
Click to expand...
Maybe so but that doesn’t excuse the Cardinal’s terrible remarks like: "I’m quite concerned that the Poles are creating a separate church in Britain. I would want them to be part of the Catholic life of this country.

Having Catholic Church’s in one’s own Native Language does not create a separate church.

Also I would like to ask this about TLM: Even though most of the Mass is in Latin, the sermon would be in the vernacular and you would still have Polish, Spanish, French… church’s so that people of those languages would hear the Sermon. People do come to Mass to hear the Sermon too and that isn’t in Latin.
 
I don’t see this as a problem. Back in the 19th and early 20th Century in the US parishes were established for Polish people, Germans and others with no problems for the Church or faith because of this. In my small city of 18,000 a Polish and German parish were set up within a few blocks of each other.In the Polish parish’s school, they students were taught in Polich until 40 years ago. There was no problem with this situation for the Church or the faith. And if such assimilation is good, it was occurred now after a few generations.
Frankly, I would welcome Polish Catholics if I was an Englishman, I was in Poland a year ago and was struck by their devotion and faithfulness. On the main street of Warsaw the churches on Sunday had overflowing crowds of the faithful so that people were on the sidewalk before the open doors of the churches, and kneeling out on the street during the eucharistic prayer. I would rather hope that in England that the Catholics there would be assimilated to the Polish Catholicism, since the Church in England has been wracked by dissent and infidelity.
 
originally posted by childofmary1143
Having Catholic Church’s in one’s own Native Language does not create a separate church.
Click to expand...
Most of our parents came here, were assimilated into the culture and we only speak one language. That is English. I understand the need for early immigrants to have some Masses in their native tongue but that should be very short lived. It does create separate churches. Polish people go to Polish churches and they form community around their own group. Portuguese churches here still have Portuguese Masses.

It also cost money to build many different ethnic churches.
 
Perhaps the Cardinal knows something about the activities of schismatic groups like the Polish National Catholic Church that all of us armchair experts dont?
 
I am certain that the good Cardinal doesn’t know anything about the Polish National Catholic Church. He had better learn, or else the people he is busy admonishing will join it.

The good Cardinal first admonished England for not being more accepting of immigrants, then he went after the Polish for not going to Mass in English.

Seems most people here side with the good Cardinal.

Not me. If I were to be in London, I would go to Mass with the good folks from my ancestors’ homeland and learn a little Polish. It seems they know something more about being Catholic.
 
I don’t have a problem with events at church that are geared to certain cultures. One of the parishes has a fair; there are about 15 food booths and each group has different ethnic food. It is great.

One church had a “French supper” to raise money for the school. The pastor at one church allows them to sing "Lord of the Dance as the last song at mass on or near St. Patrick’s day.

In the secular community, in the Northeast you don’t have to look very hard to find an event related to nationality. Just about everyone is covered.
 
The problem with countries in Europe is that there tends to be more of a nationalistic mindset than there is in the United States.

To be blunt, in my opinion, this could be an example of this nationalistic tendancy.
 
We have this same issue with Mexicans in my community, our neighborhood is a farming community with a high percentage of migrant workers mostly Spanish speaking and Catholic. But when I go to Church it is mostly white. The Spanish Mass is completely segregated. In America there is quickly becoming seperate Churches.

Go back to Latin and this isn’t an issue at all… 😃
 
lukewarm said:
We have this same issue with Mexicans in my community, our neighborhood is a farming community with a high percentage of migrant workers mostly Spanish speaking and Catholic. But when I go to Church it is mostly white. The Spanish Mass is completely segregated. In America there is quickly becoming seperate Churches.

Go back to Latin and this isn’t an issue at all… 😃
Click to expand...
A wise man once said, “When we abandoned the Latin Mass, we ceased to be Catholic in the real meaning of the word, and became a collection of national churches.”
 
KathleenElsie said:
I believe this would all be taken care of if Latin was the language for the actual Mass. But, no matter what we are all ONE CHURCH.
Click to expand...
I said something similar but in reality the Homily and and readings are done in the vulgar tongue anyway so I’m not sure how much it would help.

Pre Vatican II there were even more National Churches all over the place, this isn’t a new phenomenom.

My guess is the Arch-Bishop’s main worry is the sometimes radical ideas of the Polish National Churches that can be highly critical of Rome creating a real divide.
 
lukewarm said:
I said something similar but in reality the Homily and and readings are done in the vulgar tongue anyway so I’m not sure how much it would help.

Pre Vatican II there were even more National Churches all over the place, this isn’t a new phenomenom.

My guess is the Arch-Bishop’s main worry is the sometimes radical ideas of the Polish National Churches that can be highly critical of Rome creating a real divide.
Click to expand...
The homily and announcements are the parts that are not in the Missal. So yes you would miss that. But the readings are in the Missal (at least the one I have) so you just read them. The Missal comes in many languages and if you attend the Mass in Latin then your Missal is in Latin and your own vulgar language. So you get more from the Mass then if you go to a Mass that is in someone else’s vulgar language.

vulgar=national in this case.
 
ElizaE said:
I am Polish and I live in the United States. Many people feel the celebrating Mass in their native tongue is less distracting and they can focus on the Mass more. I just do not see the big deal. We are all one Church. Isn’t that what Catholic means, “universal”. So what does it matter what language is used if it brings people to the Eucharist and to God. We have a Polish parish in the area. It is too far to drive every Sunday for me, but many Polish people do go there for Mass.

Perhaps that Archbishop is concerned because the numbers in the English-speaking parishes is dwindling so he would like the Polish-speakers to be more involved to bring in numbers. I see his point. With Britain overall becoming more secularized, he wants to unite the people. However, I do not think that he did it the right way. He should add a Polish-speaking Mass and then people would sometimes make it to the Polish Mass and other times to the English Mass as their schedules allow.
Click to expand...
I’m Polish, too! 👍 I grew up going to Mass in Polish with my babushka (grandmother). I found out that the diocese wanted to shut down the parish and all the Polish people rallied to keep it open. It is still open with Mass in English and Polish.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
KathleenElsie said:
The homily and announcements are the parts that are not in the Missal. So yes you would miss that. But the readings are in the Missal (at least the one I have) so you just read them. The Missal comes in many languages and if you attend the Mass in Latin then your Missal is in Latin and your own vulgar language. So you get more from the Mass then if you go to a Mass that is in someone else’s vulgar language.

vulgar=national in this case.
Click to expand...
The fact still remains that there were more national Churches pre-Vatican II than there are today, so your final statement is not nearly as simple and cut as dry as you’re making it.

As for reading out of the Missal there’s nothing stopping anyone from doing that today. If a Spanish seaker is in an English Mass no reason he can’t be reading from a Spanish Missal. It’s absolutely no different than your example above.
 
Isn’t this cardinal one of the bishops, an expected “clarification letter” is aimed at, one of those foot-dragging on allowing the wider use of the TLM?
I am old enough to have attended Mass in Latin in the US, México, Germany, Austria and Ireland (true, the nominal language in Ireland is English, but a heavy brogue can almost turn it into a foreign language 😃 ). I have also attended NO Masses in those countries in the local language, as well as in parishes of several Eastern Rite Catholic Churches.
The Mass is the Mass.:signofcross: :byzsoc:
In Orange County, Calif., where approaching 50% of the Catholics are Hispanic, a strong, vibrant Spanish-speaking parish was shut down, its pastor demoted, and the parish changed to meet the needs of the Vietnamese community…go figure.🤷
 
I’ve just returned from Mass.
I don’t know if there were any Polish people present or not, but despite being a rainy day, the visiting Irish priest celebrated the NO Mass in Spanish to a SRO congregation. Adding to the international flaver were the altargirls, two Hispanic, one Chinese, and one Black.
I could have done without the cantor singing, in Spanish, “The Little Drummer Boy” after the excellent homily. Spanish with an Irish “twist” is a real kick!
 
I don’t agree that it will lead to a split. However I can see where the Cardinal is coming from. About 3 miles from my home there is a Polish Church. It is Catholic, but nobody else worships there except Poles. My church is heavily mixed, with heavy representation from every race colour and ethnicity (almost), including a Polish language Mass for the huge numbers of new Polish immigrants (who are often shunned in the other ‘‘Polish Church’’, because they aren’t the same generation of immigrants). But this church only caters to Polish people. It has not created tension but there is certainly a feeling of separation in our community.

God Bless

Peter
 
The Cardinal doesn’t seem to understand that language and ethnicity has nothing to do with it; we are one, holy, Catholic Church. Whatever language one uses doesn’t change it, as long as they follow the teachings of the Church. If one would go to, say, Japan or Korea, it is still the same Catholic Church one goes to, even if the language used at Mass is different. I don’t see what the real issue here is.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top