Catholic leaders gather to counter decline of faith

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It’s not either/or, Francis. I know that many Catholics think that they are already better than everyone else by definition, but read what the Cardinal wrote, please. He said that the New Evangelism MUST begin inside the Church. And I agree.

And if we keep doing exactly what we’re doing now, nothing is going to change.
My point is that they are suggesting *some *results and ignoring the *means. *If everyone in the hierarchy were to make a concerted effort to rouse each person who attends Mass to increased prayer and holiness, we would be increasing God’s involvement in this, and He is so much more powerful than we are.

And from those prayers, we would see a spontaneous generation of programs and all that.

The members of the hierarchy seem to be skipping over Catholic thinking in this matter. Read any of the active saints: they are so involved in prayer *along with *accomplishing more than we do!

The first step *is *either/or. One cannot take two steps in different directions as the first step. And our first step needs to be *prayer. *
 
It’s not either/or, Francis. I know that many Catholics think that they are already better than everyone else by definition, but read what the Cardinal wrote, please. He said that the New Evangelism MUST begin inside the Church. And I agree.

And if we keep doing exactly what we’re doing now, nothing is going to change.
I can’t believe I actually agree with you.
Based on demographics alone if you can get Catholics back to the Church that would be a success.
There is no better tool for evangelization then the witness of its members. This is the same. Tool used by the Church to conquer the Roman Empire.
Everyone seems to forget by the time of Constantine Christains were the largest group in the Empire.
Their success did not result from their acceptance but rather their acceptance was a result their success.
 
My point is that they are suggesting *some *results and ignoring the *means. *If everyone in the hierarchy were to make a concerted effort to rouse each person who attends Mass to increased prayer and holiness, we would be increasing God’s involvement in this, and He is so much more powerful than we are.

And from those prayers, we would see a spontaneous generation of programs and all that.

The members of the hierarchy seem to be skipping over Catholic thinking in this matter. Read any of the active saints: they are so involved in prayer *along with *accomplishing more than we do!

The first step *is *either/or. One cannot take two steps in different directions as the first step. And our first step needs to be *prayer. *
I’m not going to say that praying more isn’t a good thing. But the Church has been trying to encourage people to pray for 2000 years, and that’s nothing new. If they just send you home, telling you to pray, that’s not any different than what they did last week, or the week before. And it’ll have exactly the same results it had last week or the week before.
 
I can’t believe I actually agree with you.
Based on demographics alone if you can get Catholics back to the Church that would be a success.
There is no better tool for evangelization then the witness of its members. This is the same. Tool used by the Church to conquer the Roman Empire.
Everyone seems to forget by the time of Constantine Christains were the largest group in the Empire.
Their success did not result from their acceptance but rather their acceptance was a result their success.
Gus I agree with the idea that there is no greater evangelization than the witness of members. Other than that, though, I have no idea what it is you are trying to say. Are there any references for any of this?
My point is that they are suggesting *some *results and ignoring the *means. *If everyone in the hierarchy were to make a concerted effort to rouse each person who attends Mass to increased prayer and holiness, we would be increasing God’s involvement in this, and He is so much more powerful than we are.

And from those prayers, we would see a spontaneous generation of programs and all that.

The members of the hierarchy seem to be skipping over Catholic thinking in this matter. Read any of the active saints: they are so involved in prayer *along with *accomplishing more than we do!

The first step *is *either/or. One cannot take two steps in different directions as the first step. And our first step needs to be *prayer. *
I’m not going to say that praying more isn’t a good thing. But the Church has been trying to encourage people to pray for 2000 years, and that’s nothing new. If they just send you home, telling you to pray, that’s not any different than what they did last week, or the week before. And it’ll have exactly the same results it had last week or the week before.
 
My point is that they are suggesting *some *results and ignoring the *means. *If everyone in the hierarchy were to make a concerted effort to rouse each person who attends Mass to increased prayer and holiness, we would be increasing God’s involvement in this, and He is so much more powerful than we are.
We are in an age of apostasy, rebellion and secularism. God is still disseminating His graces so that none will be lost, but quite honestly, what I see in my little corner of the world is often times a spirit of perversity where the message is downright ignored. I do believe there is a scriptural reference prophesying this reality.
 
I’m going to roll with the ‘Culture War’ idea.

If this is a war, why don’t we have boots on the ground?
I’m not talking about catechists, clergy or, apologists.

I’m talking about well-trained young people who know what they are talking about and are willing and able to defend the Church.

Many of you may be wondering what good defending the faith will be if it appears cold and lifeless, but let me explain.

If young people are able to kindly and knowledgeably explain their faith, then other young people will start asking them questions about their faith. Young people will become inspired by these living examples of a good Catholic that is relevant to their life because they are share so many of life’s challenges. It also will demonstrate that the Catholic Church does not belong to the elderly (no offense to any here!) or reject youth, an unfortunate misconception in many circles.

How do I know this will work? It already has in my life. I start expounding on what our very watered-down high school theology classes teach us and I get interest from fellow students many people would not expect it from.

The problem often starts in young people. Therefore, the solution must start with young people.
 
We are in an age of apostasy, rebellion and secularism. God is still disseminating His graces so that none will be lost, but quite honestly, what I see in my little corner of the world is often times a spirit of perversity where the message is downright ignored. I do believe there is a scriptural reference prophesying this reality.
Yes, but that’s all talk, and it’s blaming somebody else too. It doesn’t solve anything.
I’m going to roll with the ‘Culture War’ idea.

If this is a war, why don’t we have boots on the ground?
I’m not talking about catechists, clergy or, apologists.

I’m talking about well-trained young people who know what they are talking about and are willing and able to defend the Church.

Many of you may be wondering what good defending the faith will be if it appears cold and lifeless, but let me explain.

If young people are able to kindly and knowledgeably explain their faith, then other young people will start asking them questions about their faith. Young people will become inspired by these living examples of a good Catholic that is relevant to their life because they are share so many of life’s challenges. It also will demonstrate that the Catholic Church does not belong to the elderly (no offense to any here!) or reject youth, an unfortunate misconception in many circles.

How do I know this will work? It already has in my life. I start expounding on what our very watered-down high school theology classes teach us and I get interest from fellow students many people would not expect it from.

The problem often starts in young people. Therefore, the solution must start with young people.
Maybe this is part of the answer, yes. How will they be trained and what kind of fellowship will they have with each other? How will they be attached to the rest of the Church?
 
A few find the readings and essentially submit themselves to a good priest who guides them. These few, after having been properly prepared, go out and inspire their fellow youth.

After this first unit is founded, they set up units across the nation, using social media and (preferably) face to face contact. (i.e., during the summer spend a week or so with family that lives out of town and talk to their parish, presentations, etc., or something like that)

The idea is that they form a lean, centralized organization-- a Catholic Boy Scouts on 'roids, if you will. The relationship with each other will be that of camaraderie and brotherhood in Christ. The base units would be attached to parishes and divisions would cover geographic areas. The ideal relationship would be that, aside from carrying out the five base missions (spiritual growth, service to community, education, evangelization, and apologetics), the units would be able to be assigned special tasks by the local clergy and carry them out.

Did that answer your questions?
 
A few find the readings and essentially submit themselves to a good priest who guides them. These few, after having been properly prepared, go out and inspire their fellow youth.

After this first unit is founded, they set up units across the nation, using social media and (preferably) face to face contact. (i.e., a parish invites a unit to send a member to talk to its youth.)

The idea is that they form a lean, centralized organization-- a Catholic Boy Scouts on 'roids, if you will. The relationship with each other will be that of camaraderie and brotherhood in Christ. The base units would be attached to parishes and divisions would cover geographic areas. The ideal relationship would be that, aside from carrying out the five base missions (spiritual growth, service to community, education, evangelization, and apologetics), the units would be able to be assigned special tasks by the local clergy and carry them out.

Did that answer your questions?

PS. Please note the change in the first paragraph. There is no edit button on the post :confused:
 
A few find the readings and essentially submit themselves to a good priest who guides them. These few, after having been properly prepared, go out and inspire their fellow youth.

After this first unit is founded, they set up units across the nation, using social media and (preferably) face to face contact. (i.e., a parish invites a unit to send a member to talk to its youth.)

The idea is that they form a lean, centralized organization-- a Catholic Boy Scouts on 'roids, if you will. The relationship with each other will be that of camaraderie and brotherhood in Christ. The base units would be attached to parishes and divisions would cover geographic areas. The ideal relationship would be that, aside from carrying out the five base missions (spiritual growth, service to community, education, evangelization, and apologetics), the units would be able to be assigned special tasks by the local clergy and carry them out.

Did that answer your questions?

PS. Please note the change in the first paragraph. There is no edit button on the post :confused:
That’s one little piece of what might happen, yes. It’s a good idea. But lots of other things will have to happen too. That won’t be enough. It could be part.
 
Yes, but that’s all talk, and it’s blaming somebody else too. It doesn’t solve anything.
It is the spiritual condition of the world. We can catechize all we want (and of course, we should) but ultimately it is only God’s grace that will enable the heart to understand and assent. We simply cannot affect an interior change in others by our own efforts - it is God’s work, altho He just might spread His grace more abundantly through our pleas and petitions for others.
My point is that they are suggesting some results and ignoring the means. If everyone in the hierarchy were to make a concerted effort to rouse each person who attends Mass to increased prayer and holiness, we would be increasing God’s involvement in this, and He is so much more powerful than we are.
St. Francis - I think I mis-read your post. If you meant that others benefit from the sacrifices and increased holiness of the community then I agree.
 
It will cause a chain reaction. Youth are the best people to Catechize/evangelize youth, because youth tend to only listen to youth.
 
I think people have become turned off to religion in general because of the kind of complacency our modern affluent secular society facilitates. I don’t think it is a coincidence that the richer we get the more secular we get; when people feel that God is no longer relevant, that they no longer need God because all of their needs are satisfied by themselves or the civil conditions of the country in which they live, they will stop praying, stop going to Church, they will stop believing. I think to some extant even us believers do something similar, when everything in our life is going good, do we remain as devoted to prayer, as earnest in living our faith? I’ll speak for myself and say no, when things are going good I tend to get complacent, and when things go bad, this is when my faith is reignited after the dryness that comes with complacency. I think this has happened on a much broader scale, we have been so blessed to live in America or the western world i general, and people have forgotten (or perhaps have never known) what it means to work to live and live to work, that life is about more than getting the newest iphone, watching football on sunday, partying for the sake of partying, etc.

I think the poor, and those who are not well off have an entirely special perspective on this issue of religion vs secularism; the poor tend to be more religious than the rest of society, and I think this is because the poor are in a position to see beyond this illusion of a society that values everything that ought not be valued, and puts no value in things that ought to be valued.

So the way I see it, for faith to make a comeback, people need to come to the realization that all of their needs are not met, that there are some things that money cannot satisfy, some things that the pleasures and comforts of the culture cannot satisfy. And this can be done in a variety of ways, in my own life it has been personal struggle, for most others I think that external struggles are necessary, for most people their lives need to be turned upside down before they make a radical change and having recourse to faith. And I think this is sad, that many people need their lives turned upside down in order to even have the door opened for belief.

But in regards to what the Church should do, I think the Church needs to simplify it’s message, and open it’s doors a bit wider. And by this, I mean the Church needs to find a way to package it’s message in an age of twitter and facebook, where no one is willing to read things exceeding 140 characters.

I think a lot of people are turned off by the waiting period for conversion, that it will often take at least a year in order to convert to Catholicism, I have one such friend who is sort of very loose in terms of spirituality ( former protestant, now just has a loose belief in God) but he has expressed to me interest in Catholicism, even interest in converting at one point, and I told him all sorts of things, and he was dismayed at having to go through a years worth of education in RCIA and waiting so long, and eventually grew cold to the idea. I understand there are reasons for making people wait, but my question is, do the benefits of making people wait a year and usually only performing conversions around Easter outweigh the drawbacks? I truly believe the Church loses potential converts, because people are dismayed at the formality of the conversion process. Protestant churches have altar calls every week and gain new members, I think it would be in the best interest of the Church and potential converts to accelerate the conversion process, we live in a digital age, and people can access information with the click of a mouse, most of the truly substantive religious education I had, was done by myself on the internet, the same can be the case for those seeking to convert rather than going to weekly RCIA classes.

And back to what I said about the Church simplifying its message, I think we need to bring the emphasis of our faith back to the core narrative of salvation, and that is bring it back to Jesus Christ the person. One of my other observations is that outsiders not familiar with the Church look at it with confusion, we have such an expansive spirituality and theology, with attention paid to all sorts of different aspects of spirituality, devotions, sacramentals, Mary and the other Saints, theology, liturgy, etc etc. Not that these are bad, by no means, but I think it’s better to leave the things that belong in the periphery in the periphery in regards to new converts. The Church’s “selling point” if you will, should center around the narrative of salvation history in Jesus Christ. Essentially, our selling point is summarized in the creed that we pray every sunday at Mass, these are our core beliefs, if someone wants to know what Catholicism is about in a few words, we should point to the creed. And from that staging point, we can get into everything else about our faith, the sacraments, liturgy, and so on. I think a simplified “sales pitch” such as this would open more eyes to what the Church has to offer, and be more inviting to those ignorant or mis informed about what the Church is all about.

In an age where information is condensed, and tightly packaged the Church needs to imitate this in my opinion, and condition our faith to be transmitted in a similar manner. Our faith offers us not only an escape from what is wrong with the world, but a means to overcome what is wrong with the world. I often here muslims proclaim “Islam is the answer!” in regards to the problems of the world, the Church needs to be just as bold once again, The Church needs to loudly proclaim that Christ is the answer and drive this message full steam ahead. It is a boldness I do not see often enough, and all of us have the ability to exhibit this in our own lives among our own circles of friends and family even though at least for myself it seems so hard to do sometimes.
 
It is the spiritual condition of the world. We can catechize all we want (and of course, we should) but ultimately it is only God’s grace that will enable the heart to understand and assent. We simply cannot affect an interior change in others by our own efforts - it is God’s work, altho He just might spread His grace more abundantly through our pleas and petitions for others.

St. Francis - I think I mis-read your post. If you meant that others benefit from the sacrifices and increased holiness of the community then I agree.
That is what I am trying to say. I mean if we just set up programs and all that, it won’t work. There has to be a change of heart which comes about through God’s grace. The way to get God to send through prayer and sacrifice. The rest will simply unfold. And I suspect that they would unfold in a completely different way than we expect.
 
Cardinal Dolan’s remarks at the synod of the New Evangelization, October 10, 2012.

blog.archny.org/

Memorable quote:

"The New Evangelization reminds us that the very agents of evangelization must first be evangelized themselves. We must first come to Jesus ourselves before we can go out to others in His Holy Name.

Saint Bernard said, “if you want to be a channel, you must first be a reservoir.”"
I think the best quote for Cardinal Dolan is “Physician heal thyself” -with leaders like him, count on this movement going nowhere. He is a part of the problem - not the solution.

lifesitenews.com/news/usccb-president-cardinal-dolan-celebrates-catholicism-of-vp-picks-biden-and
 
It is the spiritual condition of the world. We can catechize all we want (and of course, we should) but ultimately it is only God’s grace that will enable the heart to understand and assent. We simply cannot affect an interior change in others by our own efforts - it is God’s work, altho He just might spread His grace more abundantly through our pleas and petitions for others.
I not only flat out don’t believe that, but I think that the Church has always asked us to “sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence.” 1 Peter 3:15.
 
I think people have become turned off to religion in general because of the kind of complacency our modern affluent secular society facilitates. I don’t think it is a coincidence …what it means to work to live and live to work, that life is about more than getting the newest iphone, watching football on sunday, partying for the sake of partying, etc.
I honestly don’t think this is always true. I know it’s not true of me. My religious ups and downs don’t tend to track with my fortunes this way. I think there’s a LOT more to it than this.
I think the poor, and those who are not well off have an entirely special perspective on this issue of religion vs secularism; the poor tend to be more religious than the rest of society, and I think this is because the poor are in a position to see beyond this illusion of a society that values everything that ought not be valued, and puts no value in things that ought to be valued.
Again, I think that there are some very big stereotypes here. Maybe these things are true when talking about the poor in Calcutta or the slums of the Philippines, but not the down-&-out in much of America. There are many people in America who think they’re poor if their Nikes are last year’s model, and even though they haven’t worked in 10 years they have their choice of nice meals for supper every night.
So the way I see it, for faith to make a comeback, people need to come to the realization that all of their needs are not met…
But in regards to what the Church should do, I think the Church needs to simplify it’s message, and open it’s doors a bit wider. And by this, I mean the Church needs to find a way to package it’s message in an age of twitter and facebook, where no one is willing to read things exceeding 140 characters.
You mean make its message more like a jingle? Shallow? Not a chance. That’s not going to happen because it can’t. And it would be a bad idea.

If you mean finding better ways to practice the real thing on a parish level, I’d say there’s room for that. Catholics are NOT GOOD at basic organizational, educational and hosting skills. Even though our theology is the real deal, we do a sloppy job of putting together programs to teach and evangelize it. But learning to organize our programs is different than changing the message itself. We can’t change the real thing to something else just to market it.
I think a lot of people are turned off by the waiting period for conversion, …was done by myself on the internet, the same can be the case for those seeking to convert rather than going to weekly RCIA classes.
Actually, one of our biggest problems stems from baptizing people who don’t follow through with living as Catholics. Ditto people who come in through RCIA and just do a walk-through. This is very, very common. If it were up to me, which it isn’t, the process would be not less rigorous but more, and take LONGER, requiring proof of mass attendance every Sunday for at least a year.
And back to what I said about the Church simplifying its message,…the ability to exhibit this in our own lives among our own circles of friends and family even though at least for myself it seems so hard to do sometimes.
We do have a lot of side issues that people tend to get caught up in. The emphasis should be on the “main things.” This I can say. The rest, meh.
 
Our parish has 4500registered famlies. Roughly 13,000 total.Wehave one Sat Mass and four on Sunday.All. Masses are packed to overflowing.So,you couldn’t prove it by the size of my parish that The Church is struggling to keep it’s members:😉
Are there 2600 at each Mass?

Sarah x 🙂
 
That is what I am trying to say. I mean if we just set up programs and all that, it won’t work. There has to be a change of heart which comes about through God’s grace. The way to get God to send through prayer and sacrifice. The rest will simply unfold. And I suspect that they would unfold in a completely different way than we expect.
I’m not saying “don’t pray.” That would be bad. I am saying that wishing and hoping is not a strategy. If we don’t do something concrete, nothing will get done.

PS. I’ve been waiting for a couple of decades for something to “unfold.” Still waiting.
 
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