Catholic League: There's a Homosexual Crisis in the Priesthood, Never was a

[cmudd]

I hate to be curt here, but some of you folks have your head in the sand (spacifically NewUlm1976_2000 and goofyjim). Let me make a few points:

1. You cannot put men suffering from SSA in close and semi-permanent quarters with other men (seminaries). We are called to avoid the near occasion of sin. You don’t ask an alcoholic to work at a bar; you do not put a young, single heterosexual man in the same living quarters with young, single heterosexual women… you are asking for trouble. Those who suggest that it is OK as long as they take a vow of celibacy are being obtuse. To put someone who has SSA in such a situation would not only jeopardize their soul, but the soul of he who cared so little for his subordinate that he would place him in harms way.
2. All of the men who committed these atrocities took a vow of celibacy… it seems that the vow was not the problem.

3.Allowing married priests or women priests is clearly not the problem. Men do not prey on children because they are sexually frustrated. They prey on them because they are sexually demented. As it stands, celibate Catholic clergy have a better track record than fathers of children and public school teachers.

1. Clear the seminaries of all men who have SSA or promote the lifestyle and you will cure most of the problem. As earlier posts make clear, the vast majority of these crimes were committed by men against adolescent boys and young men. This IS NOT PEDERASTY/PEDOPHILIA. It is homosexual rape/battery. Pedophilia is the sexual attraction toward pre-pubescent children. Pederasty is engaging in sexual intercourse with pre-pubescent children.
2. These men recruit one another. Is there any argument on this fact? These men know and knew where they would be safe and who supported them. It started in the parishes and then went to the seminaries and then to the episcopacy and back to the parishes. There is a reason why you find these sorts of things happening in geographical clumps.
3. Homosexual attraction is a disorder. We do not ordain men who have disorders of such magnitude.
4. Not all people who have SSA are predators, but they all suffer from a certain disorder and must be prayed for. This is completely necessary and the duty of every Catholic!
5. Although we must not allow for those who have SSA to be ordained, if they are, it is problematic to have them laicized. Although it may have been an illicit ordination, they were still ordained and have undergone the same ontological change as any other priest.
6. Not every man is entitled to become a priest! Many people suffer from many different problems that prevent them from being suitable candidates for the priesthood. I’m very sorry to all of those who feel that it is unjust to bar well-intentioned men from Holy orders. But that is life. I am too short to be a professional basketball player. I do not possess the mental faculties to be a rocket scientist. I do not posses the faculties to bear children or be a mother. That is life!

 

[mark_a]

They are inferring that Homosexuality= pedophilia which is incorrect. There is no correlation between the two. Even in abuse cases it is not a hard fast rule. Sexual abuse and same-gender relationships are two different things.

I have read that the sex abuse cases among Catholic priests is just about the same as sex abuse cases in other denoms, but that Catholic priests had a much higher percentage of homosexual (vs. heterosexual) pedophilia cases.

Do you know if this is correct?

 

[johnstown_johnn]

…and the lawsuits against the Church will go on and on and on…

The interviewers of candidates are responsible for allowing the seminaries to accept this disorder; also some bishops have the notion that…"…as long as they are celibate…"

 

[goofyjim]

I hate to be curt here, but some of you folks have your head in the sand (spacifically NewUlm1976_2000 and goofyjim). Let me make a few points:

1. You cannot put men suffering from SSA in close and semi-permanent quarters with other men (seminaries). We are called to avoid the near occasion of sin. You don’t ask an alcoholic to work at a bar; you do not put a young, single heterosexual man in the same living quarters with young, single heterosexual women… you are asking for trouble. Those who suggest that it is OK as long as they take a vow of celibacy are being obtuse. To put someone who has SSA in such a situation would not only jeopardize their soul, but the soul of he who cared so little for his subordinate that he would place him in harms way.
2. All of the men who committed these atrocities took a vow of celibacy… it seems that the vow was not the problem.

3.Allowing married priests or women priests is clearly not the problem. Men do not prey on children because they are sexually frustrated. They prey on them because they are sexually demented. As it stands, celibate Catholic clergy have a better track record than fathers of children and public school teachers.

1. Clear the seminaries of all men who have SSA or promote the lifestyle and you will cure most of the problem. As earlier posts make clear, the vast majority of these crimes were committed by men against adolescent boys and young men. This IS NOT PEDERASTY/PEDOPHILIA. It is homosexual rape/battery. Pedophilia is the sexual attraction toward pre-pubescent children. Pederasty is engaging in sexual intercourse with pre-pubescent children.
2. These men recruit one another. Is there any argument on this fact? These men know and knew where they would be safe and who supported them. It started in the parishes and then went to the seminaries and then to the episcopacy and back to the parishes. There is a reason why you find these sorts of things happening in geographical clumps.
3. Homosexual attraction is a disorder. We do not ordain men who have disorders of such magnitude.
4. Not all people who have SSA are predators, but they all suffer from a certain disorder and must be prayed for. This is completely necessary and the duty of every Catholic!
5. Although we must not allow for those who have SSA to be ordained, if they are, it is problematic to have them laicized. Although it may have been an illicit ordination, they were still ordained and have undergone the same ontological change as any other priest.
6. Not every man is entitled to become a priest! Many people suffer from many different problems that prevent them from being suitable candidates for the priesthood. I’m very sorry to all of those who feel that it is unjust to bar well-intentioned men from Holy orders. But that is life. I am too short to be a professional basketball player. I do not possess the mental faculties to be a rocket scientist. I do not posses the faculties to bear children or be a mother. That is life!

Well thanks for your curt but incorrect assumption that my head is in the sand.

 

[bones_IV]

…and the lawsuits against the Church will go on and on and on…

The interviewers of candidates are responsible for allowing the seminaries to accept this disorder; also some bishops have the notion that…"…as long as they are celibate…"

Why aren’t the bishops being sued themselves? They get off scott free.

 

[cmudd]

If they agree to remain chaste and celibate noone should be turned away. Then there would be no crisis and we would have lots of priests.

Goofyjim,

If I am misinterpreting you here, please forgive me. However, it seems to me that you are stating that if a man simply agrees to remain chaste and celibate, then they should be ordained. Problem solved! The Church simply didn’t make sure that those men who suffer from SSA made that particular agreement.

Do you really think that their agreement (or lack there of) was the big problem? The problem is that they are suffering from a sexual disorder and placing them in direct contact with their biggest vice is both the occasion of sin for them and an objective sin for the man who agreed to put him there!

If you think that this is the solution… you, my friend, have your head in the proverbial sand!

 

[irenaeus1]

Turning men with SSA away from seminary is not only another consequence of an earlier precedent. There is also good theological reason for barring men with SSA. A priest who promises/vows to live a celibate and chaste life is supposed to be doing so in order to conform more fully to Christ the Victim, to make his life a sacrifice for the sake of the faithful.

There is also a practical reason for turning away from seminary men with SSA… why put a man with same sex attraction in a situation where he is perpetually bombarded with temperation? Namely, why put him to live with a community of men on a seminary campus? This would be analogous to placing a young heterosexual man to live on an all girl college campus, and tell him, “oh by that way, you have to live chastely.” What an occasion of sin.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

:knight2:

Why aren’t the bishops being sued themselves? They get off scott free.

Good question. The only litigation against bishops as far as we read are for “covering up.” This is a criminal act and a bishop can be put in prison if found guilty. Those that hide this egregious crime, IMO, prison is insufficient.

But as St. Athanasius had said, “…the floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops…” Bishops who are accompices to these heinous acts have a “special reservation” in Hell. :knight2:

 

[bones_IV]

:knight2:

Good question. The only litigation against bishops as far as we read are for “covering up.” This is a criminal act and a bishop can be put in prison if found guilty. Those that hide this egregious crime, IMO, prison is insufficient.

But as St. Athanasius had said, “…the floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops…” Bishops who are accompices to these heinous acts have a “special reservation” in Hell. :knight2:

These bishops should be charged with conspiracy! How any of these men became bishops is beyond me.

 

[NoxSineStellae]

Am I the only who finds it odd that 12-16 year olds are considered children with unformed minds who desperately need the utmost protection from The Golden Compass, Bratz Dolls, television, public libraries, and the elderly lesbian couple across the street - but when there’s a predatory priest involved, suddenly they’re not children, it’s not child abuse, not a big deal (other than the boohooing about having to pay up in court).

Sickening.

 

[nan]

Do you find it odd? I don’t think we’re talking about 12-16 year olds for the most part. I do think it’s odd that people would think that 12-16 year olds are able to make life or death decisions about abortion, however.

 

[geezerbob]

Am I the only who finds it odd that 12-16 year olds are considered children with unformed minds who desperately need the utmost protection from The Golden Compass, Bratz Dolls, television, public libraries, and the elderly lesbian couple across the street - but when there’s a predatory priest involved, suddenly they’re not children, it’s not child abuse, not a big deal (other than the boohooing about having to pay up in court).

Sickening.

To my knowledge, no one on this board has said or implied that child abuse by priests is no big deal. These forums are full of concern for the victims and condemnation for the perpetrators. In my opinion, your statement is a blatant falsehood and should be retracted and apologized for.

 

[Kevirish01]

NewUlm1976_2006 claims that there is no correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia.

I invite NewUlm and all reading this thread to read the pdf file link posted below. It is an article written by Dr. Brian Clowes of Human Life International which shows evidence that there is in fact a link between said disorders (pay particular attention to Addendum C). Dr. Clowes uses very good sources for this article.

Peace to all,
Kevirish01

hli.org/commentaries_brian_clowes_molestation_vs_homosexuality.pdf

 

[goofyjim]

Goofyjim,

If I am misinterpreting you here, please forgive me. However, it seems to me that you are stating that if a man simply agrees to remain chaste and celibate, then they should be ordained. Problem solved! The Church simply didn’t make sure that those men who suffer from SSA made that particular agreement.

Do you really think that their agreement (or lack there of) was the big problem? The problem is that they are suffering from a sexual disorder and placing them in direct contact with their biggest vice is both the occasion of sin for them and an objective sin for the man who agreed to put him there!

If you think that this is the solution… you, my friend, have your head in the proverbial sand!

I am saying that if God calls someone to serve it is not up to us to second guess that. Many with SSA are not out to disrupt the Church teaching but genuinely feel called to serve God’s people and are still quite capable of living chastely and celibately. It is the actions of a few radically gay priests that have ruined it for them for the time being but my prayer is that does not remain a long term or permanent effect. St. Paul himself stated that Jesus does not call superapostles who would be out of touch with humanity. Yet by denying those with SSA who are committed to chastity and Church teaching that is exactly what the Church would be doing. So I repeat I do not have my head in the sand. You are sounding like a broken record.

 

[goofyjim]

NewUlm1976_2006 claims that there is no correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia.

I invite NewUlm and all reading this thread to read the pdf file link posted below. It is an article written by Dr. Brian Clowes of Human Life International which shows evidence that there is in fact a link between said disorders (pay particular attention to Addendum C). Dr. Clowes uses very good sources for this article.

Peace to all,
Kevirish01

hli.org/commentaries_brian_clowes_molestation_vs_homosexuality.pdf

The problem with these studies is that they scare people into thinking that once a person confesses that he is same sex attracted he is automatically unsafe around children. That is hogwash. We do not know the hearts of other men. What about married men that abuse their children? They are heterosexual and are doing that practically as often as those in the homosexual world on a percentage basis. Then could we claim that there is a correlation between being married and pedophilia? That would be a joke. I think some of these studies are just that. They try to distort statistics for a foregone conclusion. As I have stated so often both the right and the left can draw false conclusions to suit their own arguments.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Do you find it odd? I don’t think we’re talking about 12-16 year olds for the most part. I do think it’s odd that people would think that 12-16 year olds are able to make life or death decisions about abortion, however.

There are recent cases of schoolteachers having sexual engagements with teenage students. They, when convicted, do jail time. Priests who exploit adolescents and teenagers deserve jail along with any bishop involved in coverup. IMO.

Funny, it’s like the secular courts and laws that mete out justice to perverted clergy and at the same time some bishops aid in covering up. The hierarchy should be the overlords against exploitation by perverts. IMO. IT should never get to the secular courts…it should be prevented as early as the interviews of candidates for seminary. IMO.

Some bishops say, "It’s alright for homosexuals to become priests…just as long as they are celebate. Can you believe this?

Lawsuit after lawsuit and still some bishops retain that notion.

 

[goofyjim]

It’s not a homosexual crisis. It is a crisis of priests breaking their vows. Does everyone remember the dissident bishop a few years back who decided to get married? We have a legitimate ministry to homosexual persons called Courage just waiting to expand. Unfortunately it cannot do that without priests to minister to it and the comfy cozy heterosexual priests are not likely to do that. It takes a priest who can empathize completely with what that person goes through and still offer practical and spiritual ways to avoid the lifestyle.

 

[goofyjim]

There are recent cases of schoolteachers having sexual engagements with teenage students. They, when convicted, do jail time. Priests who exploit adolescents and teenagers deserve jail along with any bishop involved in coverup. IMO.

Funny, it’s like the secular courts and laws that mete out justice to perverted clergy and at the same time some bishops aid in covering up. The hierarchy should be the overlords against exploitation by perverts. IMO. IT should never get to the secular courts…it should be prevented as early as the interviews of candidates for seminary. IMO.

Some bishops say, "It’s alright for homosexuals to become priests…just as long as they are celebate. Can you believe this?

Lawsuit after lawsuit and still some bishops retain that notion.

I agree with all your opinions except the implied one that a celibate homosexual is also somehow perverted. That is an irrational assumption that noone with same sex attraction is capable of controlling themselves. That is what the discernment process is all about. If one feels called at least give them the benefit of the doubt and let them go through discernment. A good spiritual guide will be able to determine the suitability of the candidate. The laity is not.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

It’s not a homosexual crisis. It is a crisis of priests breaking their vows. Does everyone remember the dissident bishop a few years back who decided to get married? We have a legitimate ministry to homosexual persons called Courage just waiting to expand. Unfortunately it cannot do that without priests to minister to it and the comfy cozy heterosexual priests are not likely to do that. It takes a priest who can empathize completely with what that person goes through and still offer practical and spiritual ways to avoid the lifestyle.

If a bishop rescinds his vow of chastity and gets married and leaves Holy Orders it does NOT impact by losing other souls.

For a molestation of adolescents by deviate priests SOULS ARE LOST. The comparison is as different as apples and oranges.

The problem begins with the interviewers of seminarian candidates; The INTERVIEWERS SHOULD BE SCREENED BEFORE THEY INTERVIEW SEMINARIAN CANDIDATES.

Therin lies the problem. The bishops are responsible for who gets admitted in the seminaries via their “interviewers.” We have to go to the very SOURCE if we are ever going to get a handle on this abomination.:knight2:

 

[KathleenElsie]

Am I the only who finds it odd that 12-16 year olds are considered children with unformed minds who desperately need the utmost protection from The Golden Compass, Bratz Dolls, television, public libraries, and the elderly lesbian couple across the street - but when there’s a predatory priest involved, suddenly they’re not children, it’s not child abuse, not a big deal (other than the boohooing about having to pay up in court).

Sickening.

This is the most confusing time in a young man’s sexual development. When taking classes for my degree in School Psy it was stated over and over that this was the time most males have questions about their masculinity and leaning toward other males for the companionship (sports etc). It is childhood at its most vulnerable for they (in our society) are no longer child and not yet adult. It is the best time to recruit in life style. Just as it is the time to recruit into other life decisions. This is the time when the parents need to exert the most influence and tend to exert the least. My son told me after he was grown up that he was the luckiest kid because he had someone to come home to after school.

This is one of the reasons that advertisers target this age group with sexually oriented ads. This use of ads provides the foundations of future wants and “needs.”