Catholic Liturgical Music

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pnewton said:
As far as what constitutes dreck, there is little common agreement, but that is not what this thread is about.
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I thought that that was precisely what this thread was about: the garbage we’d like to see eliminated in favour of some of the traditional hymns.
 
Phemie said:
I thought that that was precisely what this thread was about: the garbage we’d like to see eliminated in favour of some of the traditional hymns.
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From the first post
I’ve be able to visit many Catholic churches both locally and around the country and I hear basically the same tired, overplayed songs and mass settings. I know there is other music out there.
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If it is about the type of music, then of course there will be controversy. Musical tastes are so varied and some people have real emotional opinions of the superiority of their own taste. If the point is that we need to retire a category of music (dreck) in favor of another genre, then let the fur fly. I never try to please those who are confident their own subjective opinions of what constitutes “good” music. I find such people to be impossible to please. One man’s dreck is another man’s inspiration.
 
idrum677 said:
I agree. I have no problem with other instruments as long as they do not take away from the sacredness of the Mass. For the major feasts/solemnities we have anywhere from 3 to 6 musicians. The m-d usually has a string quartet, trumpet, flute, timpani (me), etc.

I made the original post and I never intended this to be a debate on new vs old or organ vs other instruments. I just feel that we as catholics can be musc more creative in our music than using the same songs over and over. :banghead:
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Amen! My parish has long had OCP as the publisher of our worship materials, and honestly, finding good text along with good melodies for congregation in their offereings can be a bit of a challenge. So the old standbys appear more often than I’d like. I’m hoping that this publisher will begin to move in a way that’s more in keeping the the mind of the church. At some point, I also may even be able to get our pastor to agree to change publishers. (miracles do happen every day)
 
If our organist NEVER plays “Battle Hymn of the Republic”, again it will be too soon for me. 😃
 
patches said:
Amen! My parish has long had OCP as the publisher of our worship materials, and honestly, finding good text along with good melodies for congregation in their offereings can be a bit of a challenge. So the old standbys appear more often than I’d like. I’m hoping that this publisher will begin to move in a way that’s more in keeping the the mind of the church. At some point, I also may even be able to get our pastor to agree to change publishers. (miracles do happen every day)
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I think it’s time there were a few old-fashioned gatherings of villagers armed with torches and pitchforks outside a few publishers’ offices. I sometimes bore even myself, as the percentage content of our hymnals that I’m not prepared to use is substantial and yes, the old standbys pop up a lot. But none of my “old standbys” were on the original few lists given here, thankfully.
 
I’m for eliminating much, but not all, songs that originated from contemporary Christian radio hits. A few of them are okay, but the majority of this music is written by Protestant musicians, and some of these songs contain Protestant doctrine in their lyrics.

In addition to polluting the mass with Protestant doctrines, some of these songs have transformed the mass into an entertainment venue.
 
Jimsdun said:
I’m for eliminating much, but not all, songs that originated from contemporary Christian radio hits. A few of them are okay, but the majority of this music is written by Protestant musicians, and some of these songs contain Protestant doctrine in their lyrics.

In addition to polluting the mass with Protestant doctrines, some of these songs have transformed the mass into an entertainment venue.
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I’m arguing a very specific point here - and I’m NOT arguing that such music is good for mass. I am not favorable to much of it for mass - HOWEVER … with that said …

Much of what some see as that music being “Protestant” is in their heads. For instance, a few days ago, I saw a thread that discussed the song “I can only Imagine” as being a denial of the Real Presence. In fact - I do not believe that the song is. It is obvious to me that the author is speaking of when he dies - or when Christ comes again. He asks what he will do when he finally comes face to face with God. This to me, is speaking not of coming face to face with God IN the Holy Eucharist, but rather, face to face with God, the Father, in Heaven. It is frankly hard for me to imagine anyone taking the song any other way than that. To take it as denying the presence of God in this world - through the Sacraments or otherwise - is to read much more into the lyrics in my opinion.

I see very few “popular” Christian songs which explicitly deny tenets of our Catholic faith. In fact - being market driven and wanting to appeal to the largest audience possible, I see many of them clearly taking the “safe” road. They simply talk about how wonderful God is and how worthy to be praised he is.

The debate can continue on its appropriateness for mass - which by the way I’m not sold on. However, most of it - with a few exceptions - is not explicitly protestant. It’s perfectly good music to listen to in the car or at home.
 
PaixGioiaAmor said:
I’m arguing a very specific point here - and I’m NOT arguing that such music is good for mass. I am not favorable to much of it for mass - HOWEVER … with that said …

Much of what some see as that music being “Protestant” is in their heads. For instance, a few days ago, I saw a thread that discussed the song “I can only Imagine” as being a denial of the Real Presence. In fact - I do not believe that the song is. It is obvious to me that the author is speaking of when he dies - or when Christ comes again. He asks what he will do when he finally comes face to face with God. This to me, is speaking not of coming face to face with God IN the Holy Eucharist, but rather, face to face with God, the Father, in Heaven. It is frankly hard for me to imagine anyone taking the song any other way than that. To take it as denying the presence of God in this world - through the Sacraments or otherwise - is to read much more into the lyrics in my opinion.

I see very few “popular” Christian songs which explicitly deny tenets of our Catholic faith. In fact - being market driven and wanting to appeal to the largest audience possible, I see many of them clearly taking the “safe” road. They simply talk about how wonderful God is and how worthy to be praised he is.

The debate can continue on its appropriateness for mass - which by the way I’m not sold on. However, most of it - with a few exceptions - is not explicitly protestant. It’s perfectly good music to listen to in the car or at home.
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Jimsdun makes some very valid points, though. The problem with these Protestant pop songs infiltrating the Mass is that the focus is more on how “I can sing of His love forever”, making “me” the actor. Then, we begin to celebrate ourselves.

Might I also remind you that Pope Beneidct XVI has made some very telling remarks on the issue of music:
On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. “Rock”, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit’s sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.
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The Protestant praise music certainly falls under that category of being “mass produced.” OCP also falls under that category because it constantly churns out new music that is less than suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

The Pope also makes another push for renewing Sacred Music in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in his document Sacramentum Caritatis:
The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. ***Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). ***Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).
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Unfortunately, there are many in certain circles who have not yet gotten the message from the Holy Father and continue to promote and use banal music for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
 
Brother John got a wee bit sarcastic earlier and implied that there has been no good music written after Vatican II. There has and my choir sings it. John Rutter (not even a Catholic) has written some really nice works “What Sweeter Music”; “The Lord Bless You and Keep You”; “Be Thou My Vision”; and “God Be in My Head”. These and others of his have become repetoire for my choir.

Taize - All sorts of stuff in Latin that we use. The most poignant for me is “Jesus Remember Me” which we sing for the Veneration of the Cross on Good Friday. A very true example of when song and prayer merge and become one.

And then we have local composers whose works may never be published - a high school teacher; a monk at a nearby abbey. Oh, yes, John, there is good music being written and we are singing it.

We do not use OCP - Deo gratias ite Deo gratias. So, John, Rutter doesn’t write in Latin - Taize does and it is easily sung so why do we still have the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’?
 
brotherhrolf said:
The most poignant for me is “Jesus Remember Me” which we sing for the Veneration of the Cross on Good Friday.
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Then what is the Latin equivalent of "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. We use English and Spanish and I would love to switch to or add Latin.
 
pnewton said:
Then what is the Latin equivalent of "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. We use English and Spanish and I would love to switch to or add Latin.
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Boy, you’ve stumped me there. I’m sure there must be Taize translations into Spanish. On the other hand there is Jesus Dulcis Memoria - plainsong and appropriate as well.
 
brotherhrolf said:
Boy, you’ve stumped me there. I’m sure there must be Taize translations into Spanish. On the other hand there is Jesus Dulcis Memoria - plainsong and appropriate as well.
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That tune is used for O Sun of Justice, which is one of the most beautiful Lenten hymns. It’s a shame that despite the fact that JMJ_coder helped put the text to music, my choir director chickened out of using it for Lent. She also thought that the Attende Domine was too hard to sing. :eek: :mad:

I think that the only time I ever get to hear great Lenten music is when EWTN does a live feed from the Vatican. 👍

By the way, the OCP suggestions for Spanish music during Lent are horrible. Not a one was a Lenten song. Some of them really didn’t fit anywhere. OCP has got to go. Maybe I should take a page from Barack Obama and start my own grass-roots Change We Can Believe In approach to OCP. 🤷
 
Funny, brotherhrolf. Today I took a friend to Teen Mass, who hadn’t been to church in years. She is nearly 40, never married, never had children, hasn’t been to church since her teens, and lived with her mother, who passed away last fall.

After Mass, she looked at me and said “I know YOU didn’t like the music, but I DID”…

At least she could tell that I wasn’t fond of the new wave geetar stuff 🙂
 
Part of the reason that I wish only the organ would be allowed is that I cannot imagine people playing On Eagle’s Wings, or I am the Bread of Life, on the organ.
Secondly, I went to tour a college a summer ago, and a girl who had never played the organ, but who knew how to play the piano, played the organ beautifully for us. Now, I only know how to play twinkle twinkle on the piano, but if it was that easy for her, it should be equally as easy for other piano players.
Third I love to listen to all types of music outside of church. I love the guitar as an instrument for other types of music, but I hate it in church, and I think that it should be banned from church. It leads to a sense of laxness. And a sense of *have fun, enjoy, feel good, *etc… Sure, most people want to do all that all the time, but that is not what mass is about, it is about worshiping God and learning about God through the Church and the sacraments.

Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite

PS: BenedictGal, I love Be Thou My Vison, it is so beautiful, but Gee, the focus is off us, and more on God.🤷 😉
 
Margarite said:
Part of the reason that I wish only the organ would be allowed is that I cannot imagine people playing On Eagle’s Wings, or I am the Bread of Life, on the organ.

Done with organ at our church at almost every funeral.

Secondly, I went to tour a college a summer ago, and a girl who had never played the organ, but who knew how to play the piano, played the organ beautifully for us. Now, I only know how to play twinkle twinkle on the piano, but if it was that easy for her, it should be equally as easy for other piano players.

Nobody who has not studied organ can do that wonderful instrument justice. There’s a lot more to playing the organ than sitting down and playing a tune.

Third I love to listen to all types of music outside of church. I love the guitar as an instrument for other types of music, but I hate it in church, and I think that it should be banned from church. It leads to a sense of laxness. And a sense of *have fun, enjoy, feel good, *etc… Sure, most people want to do all that all the time, but that is not what mass is about, it is about worshiping God and learning about God through the Church and the sacraments.

I only have a problem with guitar because at Mass I have only ever heard it played badly. There would be nothing wrong in my book with a classically trained guitarist offering his talent for Mass. All I’ve ever heard is the person who knows three/four chords and can’t read music strumming his/her way through “Praise to the Lord, the Almighty”.
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Phemie:
Absolutely. I grew up listenting to Sister Cornelia play the organ at our Church. She knew how to play with proper expression.

On some Sunday afternoons, my Dad would take me into Chicago to the Hub roller rink. Not to skate, but to listen to Leon Berry play the organ. Unbelievable what he could do with a 3 manual console.

The organist at our Church now, is…well…it’s like she tries too hard or something. She really knows music, but watching her play literally wears me out. Like watching a fight or something. What’s really odd, is that she is wonderful during warmup. But when Mass starts, it’s like she’s in mortal combat with the organ.

Organ playing is an art within itself. Not everyone can do it, and do it well.
 
I am sorry that they have played this on the organ.

I know that there is more to playing the organ, but it is much more beautiful than any other instrument, even if it is not played to it’s full potential. If a trained pianist plays the organ, it is still beautiful, though not awesome. But I am willing to settle for beautiful.

I have heard some people who were very good at playing the guitar, but it is not right in church. There are just some instruments that don’t belong in church and the guitar is one of them in my opinion.

Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite
Here are a few more to add to the list

Be Not Afraid
Gift of Finest Wheat
Here I am Lord
One Bread, One Body
Shelter Me O God
Table of Plenty
Abba Father
Gather Us Together

Could someone post a list of all the songs we have so far?
 
I only have a problem with guitar because at Mass I have only ever heard it played badly. There would be nothing wrong in my book with a classically trained guitarist offering his talent for Mass. All I’ve ever heard is the person who knows three/four chords and can’t read music strumming his/her way through “Praise to the Lord, the Almighty”.
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I hear ya! My former parish had a guitar for one of the Masses and all she could do is pay about 6-7 songs that were already over played. She was my inspiriation to start this thread.

We had a beautiful Casavant pipe organ at the parish and the music director was a very talented- trained organist who studied in Europe in his younger days…younger being the key word. Unfortunately, he was in his 80’s when we left.

Organist are a dying breed. I remember having a professer in college who was an organist. He could look at an orchestral score (multiple staves and transpositions) and play it on an organ. It was phenominal…unfortunately he got a better offer from another university and left.
 
Abba Father
All Are Welcome
All That I Am *
Anthem
Ashes
Battle Hymn Of The Republic
*Be Not Afraid *
Bread Of Life
Celtic Alleluia
Christ, Be Our Light
City Of God
Come To The Banquet
Eat This Bread Drink This Cup
For You Are My God
*Gather Us In *
Gather Us Together
Gift Of Finest Wheat
God Creator, God Most High
Hail Mary/Gentle Woman
Here I Am Lord
Hosea
I Am The Bread O Life
I Will Choose Christ
Just A Closer Walk With Thee
Let Us Break Bread Together
Make Me A Channel Of Your Peace
Mass Of Creation
Morning Has Broken
O Love Of God/O Amor De Dios
On Eagles Wings
One Bread, One Body
Pan De Vida
Pescador De Los Hombres (Can’t Wait For It To Sail Away)
Praise To The Lord, The Almighty
Preparing The Way Of The Lord
Seek Ye First
Shelter Me O God
Sing A New Song *
Sing To The Mountains
Song Of The Body Of Christ
Stairway To Heaven
Table Of Plenty
Take My Hands
Taste And See
They’ll Know We Are Christians
Though The Mountains May Fall
Tree Of Life
We Remember
Yahweh, I Know You Are Near
You Are Mine
You Are Near
**
There are 51 songs so far if this list is correct.
 
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