B
Brother_John
Guest
Is it your position that these songs are not worthy of use at Mass? If so, why? Not arguing, I’d just really like to understand the reasoning behind it.
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I
idrum677
Guest
The point of my original post was to bring attention to the over use of certain pieces.
M
Margarite
Guest
I was just gathering the songs that have been posted throughout this thread as overused. Some of these songs I have never heard of, some I like and think they should remain, and some I think should be banned.
But the OP said he only wants a list.
If you want to talk about these go to:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=219907&goto=newpost
I know I am just as guilty, it is hard to post hymns without also posting your opinion of them, but the OP sounds
so
I am sticking with the other thread as far as opinions go from now on.
Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite
But the OP said he only wants a list.
If you want to talk about these go to:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=219907&goto=newpost
I know I am just as guilty, it is hard to post hymns without also posting your opinion of them, but the OP sounds
so I am sticking with the other thread as far as opinions go from now on. Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite
G
Guitar
Guest
I’m sorry if I seem to be harping on this, Margarite -
- I really don’t mean to come across that way, but if you have heard a trained pianist playing organ and thought it was beautiful, then I very very very much doubt you were hearing someone who had never played organ before.The piano is an attack-and-decay instrument that has a sustain pedal that allows notes to keep sounding while you go off and hit other keys. On the organ, if you don’t hold a note down, it stops sounding, and there is no decay. (Blinding Glimpse of the Bleedin’ Obvious, as we say here at work!) Point is though, that this requires a much more “gymnastic” sort of keyboard technique and a different approach to articulation, which for most trained pianists requires a bit of brain rewiring. As does the business of, in many instances, redistributing what your left hand would normally do between your left hand and your feet. BTDT, got the T-shirt. In fact, some aspects of organ technique are considered “bad habits” on piano by many teachers.
Hearing an unconverted pianist play organ constitues torture in my book, it’s like being constantly jabbed with hatpins. If the choices are quality something else or incompetent and distracting organ, quality for me please. Most places I look at the moment, sadly, quality organ is not on the list of options.
B
Brother_John
Guest
Couldn’t have said it better myself. A piano player does not an organ player make.I’m sorry if I seem to be harping on this, Margarite -
The piano is an attack-and-decay instrument that has a sustain pedal that allows notes to keep sounding while you go off and hit other keys. On the organ, if you don’t hold a note down it stops sounding and there is no decay. (Blinding Glimpse of the Bleedin’ Obvious, as we say here at work!) Point is though, that this requires a much more “gymnastic” sort of keyboard technique and a different approach to articulation, which for most trained pianists requires a bit of brain rewiring. As does the business of, in many instances, redistributing what your left hand would normally do between your left hand and your feet. BTDT, got the T-shirt. In fact, some aspects of organ technique are considered “bad habits” on piano by many teachers.
Hearing an unconverted pianist play organ constitues torture in my book, it’s like being constantly jabbed with hatpins. If the choices are quality something else or incompetent and distracting organ, quality for me please. Most places I look at the moment, sadly, quality organ is not on the list of options.
P
PaixGioiaAmor
Guest
I agree.I’m sorry if I seem to be harping on this, Margarite -
The piano is an attack-and-decay instrument that has a sustain pedal that allows notes to keep sounding while you go off and hit other keys. On the organ, if you don’t hold a note down it stops sounding and there is no decay. (Blinding Glimpse of the Bleedin’ Obvious, as we say here at work!) Point is though, that this requires a much more “gymnastic” sort of keyboard technique and a different approach to articulation, which for most trained pianists requires a bit of brain rewiring. As does the business of, in many instances, redistributing what your left hand would normally do between your left hand and your feet. BTDT, got the T-shirt. In fact, some aspects of organ technique are considered “bad habits” on piano by many teachers.
Hearing an unconverted pianist play organ constitues torture in my book, it’s like being constantly jabbed with hatpins. If the choices are quality something else or incompetent and distracting organ, quality for me please. Most places I look at the moment, sadly, quality organ is not on the list of options.
My fiance is a trained pianist who can bring tears to your eyes. Listen to her try to play the organ and her playing will also bring tears to your eyes - for a different reason.
B
Brother_John
Guest
Is she the organist at my parish?
P
Phemie
Guest
The organist at our church plays a mean classical guitar. 'Nuf said.Is she the organist at my parish?
P
Phemie
Guest
The organist at our church plays a mean classical guitar. 'Nuf said.Is she the organist at my parish?
The last one was a piano teacher.
We’re not a big community and we’ll never attract an organist. I’d be happy with a really good pianist to play the piano that we have sitting there doing nothing.
G
Guitar
Guest
… as long as they stay away from the Dead Horse 51.
G
Guitar
Guest
Just noticed this, Margarite. Those two songs are played on organ more often than they are on guitar or piano, round here, in fact some people think IATBOL is an “organ hymn”. If you haven’t heard them on organ, then I understand a bit better what’s behind some of your posts.
I don’t know all the items on the list you compiled from this thread but the ones I do know, they are all, every one of them, played on organ all the time. That’s why I said earlier that IMO banning guitars and pianos will make little difference to the repertoire and that education is IMO a better approach than banning instruments. It would be nice if people only played idiomatic music on organ but no, sadly, where I come from you get the same repertoire regardless of the instruments available.
B
Brother_John
Guest
Hard to believe we’ve been singing from the “Glory and Praise” hymnals for over 20 years now. Hardly seems like “new” music any more.
Actually, our parish just got new hymnals, which combined the G&P music with the old “traditional” red hymnal.
So, now it’s all together under one cover.
There are a few on the “dead horse 51” that I don’t care for, but I like most of them. And, yes, they are played on the organ at my parish at the “non-guitar” Masses as well.
But then again, some of the oldies but goodies, don’t strike me as that good either.
Age isn’t everything. If it was, Grandma’s underwear drawer would be a gold mine…
:dancing:
Actually, our parish just got new hymnals, which combined the G&P music with the old “traditional” red hymnal.
So, now it’s all together under one cover.
There are a few on the “dead horse 51” that I don’t care for, but I like most of them. And, yes, they are played on the organ at my parish at the “non-guitar” Masses as well.
But then again, some of the oldies but goodies, don’t strike me as that good either.
Age isn’t everything. If it was, Grandma’s underwear drawer would be a gold mine…
:dancing:
C
Caesar
Guest
The liturgy needs more polyphony, and more baroque. I demand more baroque!
B
Brother_John
Guest
That’s what’s wrong with my old viola…the strings are baroque…The liturgy needs more polyphony, and more baroque. I demand more baroque!
M
Margarite
Guest
Well, I guess maybe the girl had read about playing the organ, or maybe I just misunderstood her, but I thought that she said she had never played the organ, and she played it just fine. She did not get all fancy, just the basic tune, but she was pretty good.
If all those songs can be played on the organ, then I stick with my post saying that only the Audoremus Hymnal should be allowed.
At our church, the piano player plays the organ too, and he is passable, but when he plays the piano it is like he is in a night club. It has a sort of jazzy beat and makes you want to dance, and cry because you want to dance and you know you shouldn’t in church.
At one of the two other churches we go to they have drumbs and piano at every mass, with organ only for the Sanctus (which is a weird mixture of English, Spanish, and Latin). The singer is a convert who prefers the less Catholic hymns and crys when confronted about those hymns being more protestant than Catholic.
The third church we go to is great. There is a hymn before and after mass led by a parishoner in the pews. After mass Father teaches a new hymn for next Sunday. The few people who stay for choir practice help to lead the congregation on the following Sunday. This is easy because there are only about 50 people who go to this mass, and it is only at 9:30 each Sunday. It is a half Latin, half English mass, so the people who are there want to be there and want to learn, so the priest has a willing audience. Each Sunday he teaches some new part of the mass in Latin, and reviews what we learned the week before in his sermon. It is very nice, but slow going. We just found this parish and we try to go every Sunday, but sometimes it is hard to get up at 7:30 in the morning on Sundays so that we can make the mass. So that is when we have to go to the other churches.
Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite
If all those songs can be played on the organ, then I stick with my post saying that only the Audoremus Hymnal should be allowed.
At our church, the piano player plays the organ too, and he is passable, but when he plays the piano it is like he is in a night club. It has a sort of jazzy beat and makes you want to dance, and cry because you want to dance and you know you shouldn’t in church.
At one of the two other churches we go to they have drumbs and piano at every mass, with organ only for the Sanctus (which is a weird mixture of English, Spanish, and Latin). The singer is a convert who prefers the less Catholic hymns and crys when confronted about those hymns being more protestant than Catholic.
The third church we go to is great. There is a hymn before and after mass led by a parishoner in the pews. After mass Father teaches a new hymn for next Sunday. The few people who stay for choir practice help to lead the congregation on the following Sunday. This is easy because there are only about 50 people who go to this mass, and it is only at 9:30 each Sunday. It is a half Latin, half English mass, so the people who are there want to be there and want to learn, so the priest has a willing audience. Each Sunday he teaches some new part of the mass in Latin, and reviews what we learned the week before in his sermon. It is very nice, but slow going. We just found this parish and we try to go every Sunday, but sometimes it is hard to get up at 7:30 in the morning on Sundays so that we can make the mass. So that is when we have to go to the other churches.
Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite
L
lvschant
Guest
I certainly agree that the technique used to play the piano is completely different than that for organ-playing. I think, however, that many good pianists could, with a bit of effort, master the difference in the technique.
One of my piano teachers was also a church organist. Part of what she required me to do each week at my lesson was to sight-read a hymn from a (you guessed it – protestant) hymnal. While doing that, I was not allowed to use the damper pedal at any time and had to learn organ-type fingering on the piano. Perhaps this wasn’t ideal, but it certainly did help me. I’m thinking it would work for others as well… In the case of many of the songs on the list above, the accompaniments are really written with a piano accompaniment in mind, IMO. Even with the best of techniques, they may simply not work well with organ accompaniment.
As to the question of the list of songs that have been overused and are tired… I would not mind if I never heard them at Mass again, although it is not that I think they are inherently bad. If we took the time to analyze each song for its good and bad points, it would take forever… the thing is… even if a song has a sweet tune and nice-sounding words (that may even paraphrase a psalm or other Bible verse occasionally), they are paraphrases and perhaps not the ideal for the liturgy.
For example… many people think Charlton Heston did a great job in the film *The Ten Commandments *but I’ll bet no one would think taking one of his orations in the movie would be OK to substitute for one of the readings at Mass on Sunday.
Many of the hymns we have grown up hearing in Catholic parishes across the country are overly emotional and are more “me”-based, rather than based upon praising God. In addition, many are based upon rock-beat rhythms and accompaniments that tend to remind one more of the local Christian radio station than the Holy Mass. Some songs even seem more appropriate to an Irish pub (I Danced in the Morning, to name one) than to the Mass.
Let’s face it… many things were not perfect in the liturgy prior to the dramatic changes we have seen post Vatican II, but the kind of throwing out the baby with the bathwater reaction to the music in the liturgy we have had is ridiculous.
I actually feel very cheated that I never once heard a Gregorian chant at Mass my entire life (except for some of the chanted prayers from the priest) until I began learning to do it myself. I also never once heard any beautiful renaissance polyphony at Mass until recently.
So, for those of us who would like to see some of the Church’s treasury of music reclaimed for the Mass, I think we must take it slowly and we also must have some charity toward people for whom the above-listed music has a special meaning. That being said, how about a little charity toward those who would like a little chant and polyphony now and again?
We have almost three generations of folks in the Church now who have no familiarity with the music that, up until the 1960’s was used continuously from as early as the 400’s or so, and that may have had an even earlier basis in the Jewish traditions.
We can each, in our own way work to allow that to change… whether it is in actively working to bring back the music of the Church or just in trying to be receptive to it on a personal level… a change in the musical taste of Catholics in the pews will not happen overnight… but with time and patience, who knows?
AMDG
Janet.
One of my piano teachers was also a church organist. Part of what she required me to do each week at my lesson was to sight-read a hymn from a (you guessed it – protestant) hymnal. While doing that, I was not allowed to use the damper pedal at any time and had to learn organ-type fingering on the piano. Perhaps this wasn’t ideal, but it certainly did help me. I’m thinking it would work for others as well… In the case of many of the songs on the list above, the accompaniments are really written with a piano accompaniment in mind, IMO. Even with the best of techniques, they may simply not work well with organ accompaniment.
As to the question of the list of songs that have been overused and are tired… I would not mind if I never heard them at Mass again, although it is not that I think they are inherently bad. If we took the time to analyze each song for its good and bad points, it would take forever… the thing is… even if a song has a sweet tune and nice-sounding words (that may even paraphrase a psalm or other Bible verse occasionally), they are paraphrases and perhaps not the ideal for the liturgy.
For example… many people think Charlton Heston did a great job in the film *The Ten Commandments *but I’ll bet no one would think taking one of his orations in the movie would be OK to substitute for one of the readings at Mass on Sunday.
Many of the hymns we have grown up hearing in Catholic parishes across the country are overly emotional and are more “me”-based, rather than based upon praising God. In addition, many are based upon rock-beat rhythms and accompaniments that tend to remind one more of the local Christian radio station than the Holy Mass. Some songs even seem more appropriate to an Irish pub (I Danced in the Morning, to name one) than to the Mass.
Let’s face it… many things were not perfect in the liturgy prior to the dramatic changes we have seen post Vatican II, but the kind of throwing out the baby with the bathwater reaction to the music in the liturgy we have had is ridiculous.
I actually feel very cheated that I never once heard a Gregorian chant at Mass my entire life (except for some of the chanted prayers from the priest) until I began learning to do it myself. I also never once heard any beautiful renaissance polyphony at Mass until recently.
So, for those of us who would like to see some of the Church’s treasury of music reclaimed for the Mass, I think we must take it slowly and we also must have some charity toward people for whom the above-listed music has a special meaning. That being said, how about a little charity toward those who would like a little chant and polyphony now and again?
We have almost three generations of folks in the Church now who have no familiarity with the music that, up until the 1960’s was used continuously from as early as the 400’s or so, and that may have had an even earlier basis in the Jewish traditions.
We can each, in our own way work to allow that to change… whether it is in actively working to bring back the music of the Church or just in trying to be receptive to it on a personal level… a change in the musical taste of Catholics in the pews will not happen overnight… but with time and patience, who knows?
AMDG
Janet.
P
Phemie
Guest
P
patches
Guest
Janet, You are very wise. I am a classically trained pianist and professional music producer who works with and loves great music of all eras & genres. Every style of music has forgettable examples of a victory of style over substance. Certainly the “good old days” left something to be desired at times too. Lots of SATB hymns, --as much as I like a good one, aren’t terribly inspiring. A singable tune with reasonable range and proper liturgical text in contemporary style can be very ennobling if done well. I very much appreciate a good classically trained voice, but there care be an over-the-top quality to the expression, every bit at enervating to some as a badly “crooned” pop tune is to others. Is an opera singer an inept popular vocalist, or is it the other way around? We should all try to remember that one persons meat is another’s poison, and it’s possible to meet the requirements for good liturgical music in varied styles while still being reverent. To tie the argument for what is good music for mass too closely to style rather than substance is a mistake, --our focus should not be on excluding styles we don’t personally like, but making sure that whatever the style, it is appropriate for mass and well done. And I don’t buy the argument that it’s somehow tied only to the instruments used, one only need hear a ham handed organist to drive that point home. I will sometimes substitute piano for organ in choir pieces where the sustain of the organ obscures the texture of the voices, and the piano’s faster decay provides a better choral sound. The “everything new is bad,” vs. “everything old is bad” approach seems to me to miss the point entirely.
P
patches
Guest
Janet, You are very wise. I am a classically trained pianist and professional music producer who works with and loves great music of all eras & genres. Every style of music has forgettable examples of a victory of style over substance. Certainly the “good old days” left something to be desired at times too. Lots of SATB hymns, --as much as I like a good one, aren’t terribly inspiring. A singable tune with reasonable range and proper liturgical text in contemporary style can be very ennobling if done well. I very much appreciate a good classically trained voice, but there care be an over-the-top quality to the expression, every bit at enervating to some as a badly “crooned” pop tune is to others. Is an opera singer an inept popular vocalist, or is it the other way around? We should all try to remember that one persons meat is another’s poison, and it’s possible to meet the requirements for good liturgical music in varied styles while still being reverent. To tie the argument for what is good music for mass too closely to style rather than substance is a mistake, --our focus should not be on excluding styles we don’t personally like, but making sure that whatever the style, it is appropriate for mass and well done. And I don’t buy the argument that it’s somehow tied only to the instruments used, one only need hear a ham handed organist to drive that point home. I will sometimes substitute piano for organ in choir pieces where the sustain of the organ obscures the texture of the voices, and the piano’s faster decay provides a better choral sound. The “everything new is bad,” vs. “everything old is bad” approach seems to me to miss the point entirely.
D
deSalingAway
Guest
Here’s my two cents.
Patches, you are correct that the “everything is new, everything is old” approach is not entirely accurate. There are many beautiful chants and hymns written and adapted in recent times (though I couldn’t name one for lack of memory).
A little background. I grew up in a parish which sang only traditional hymns with the exception of one “folk Mass” on Sunday’s which had the Haugen/Haas music. The pastor eventually died and the music opened up to a more…contemporary style. I played bass guitar in the praise and worship band at the youth Mass for 4 years. I have since moved to another city and sing in the chant choir with lvschant.
I see a major problem with the approach that it is acceptable with any instrument if the song is liturgically appropriate and done well. Dr. Kurt Poterack gave a chant workshop at our parish, during which he explained the difficulty with modern instruments (for lack of a better phrase). He explained that the instrument must be cleansed of its secular connection before being introduced for use in the Mass. When you see a guitar or drum kit (or bass guitar) outside of a church, do you think of Mass, holiness, worshiping God, etc.? I’d bet not. You’re probably more likely to have those thoughts or feelings when seeing a pipe organ.
When a person walks into a church and sees a guitar or other “band” equipment, they generally think of a rock band (secular thoughts). The band instruments don’t make people think of holiness and religious thoughts, they point to something secular while inside a church.
The biggest reasons I quit playing in the band at Mass were the lack of reverence and focus on the Eucharist (hand motions in the front of the church, applause for the band at the end of Mass, complete distraction of having a band messing with equipment, tuning guitars, fooling with music throughout the Mass; 2) we were “performing” at Mass. People came to hear a Christian rock concert at Mass. It was shallow and base and did directly point to God. (And not that many people came anyway.)
Finally, people long for a true spiritual connection with God. The tradition, reverence, sensory aspects, and true fear of and love of God in a pure religious experience is what brings people to Christ. They come to Mass because Christ calls us to be in the world not of the world. Bringing the world into Mass only distracts.
Thanks for listening. I don’t expect anyone to agree. I haven’t convinced my wife yet, so I don’t expect to convince anyone else.
Patches, you are correct that the “everything is new, everything is old” approach is not entirely accurate. There are many beautiful chants and hymns written and adapted in recent times (though I couldn’t name one for lack of memory).
A little background. I grew up in a parish which sang only traditional hymns with the exception of one “folk Mass” on Sunday’s which had the Haugen/Haas music. The pastor eventually died and the music opened up to a more…contemporary style. I played bass guitar in the praise and worship band at the youth Mass for 4 years. I have since moved to another city and sing in the chant choir with lvschant.
I see a major problem with the approach that it is acceptable with any instrument if the song is liturgically appropriate and done well. Dr. Kurt Poterack gave a chant workshop at our parish, during which he explained the difficulty with modern instruments (for lack of a better phrase). He explained that the instrument must be cleansed of its secular connection before being introduced for use in the Mass. When you see a guitar or drum kit (or bass guitar) outside of a church, do you think of Mass, holiness, worshiping God, etc.? I’d bet not. You’re probably more likely to have those thoughts or feelings when seeing a pipe organ.
When a person walks into a church and sees a guitar or other “band” equipment, they generally think of a rock band (secular thoughts). The band instruments don’t make people think of holiness and religious thoughts, they point to something secular while inside a church.
The biggest reasons I quit playing in the band at Mass were the lack of reverence and focus on the Eucharist (hand motions in the front of the church, applause for the band at the end of Mass, complete distraction of having a band messing with equipment, tuning guitars, fooling with music throughout the Mass; 2) we were “performing” at Mass. People came to hear a Christian rock concert at Mass. It was shallow and base and did directly point to God. (And not that many people came anyway.)
Finally, people long for a true spiritual connection with God. The tradition, reverence, sensory aspects, and true fear of and love of God in a pure religious experience is what brings people to Christ. They come to Mass because Christ calls us to be in the world not of the world. Bringing the world into Mass only distracts.
Thanks for listening. I don’t expect anyone to agree. I haven’t convinced my wife yet, so I don’t expect to convince anyone else.
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