Catholic Liturgical Music

[PaixGioiaAmor]

What is wrong with “Were you There?” We sang it as the communion hymn yesterday with SAB choir and congregation singing acappela. VERY reverant.

For anyone (or noone) who may be curious, we also used “All Glory Praise and Honor” for the entrance hymn and “O Sacred Head Surrounded” for the final hymn. The choir sang a short setting of “On Monte Oliveti” for the preparation of the gifts. The prelude to the liturgy was “Benedictus” from Palestrina’s Missa Brevis.

 

[deSalingAway]

We too sang “O Sacred Head Surrounded”, but at a tempo far too slow for sanity. I began to laugh at “Death’s pallid hue comes o’er thee, the glow of life decays;”. It was a perfect description of the usually beautiful hymn with a now dragging pace of Eeyore chasing a boneless chicken.

“Were you there” isn’t too bad, though I never understood the reason for the question. It always makes me think of it as the Catholic version of “I was emo BEFORE it was cool”.

I’d like to strike the “social concern” section from the list of liturgical hymns as well as anything with the “if you build it, he will come” approach.

 

[benedictgal]

We too sang “O Sacred Head Surrounded”, but at a tempo far too slow for sanity. I began to laugh at “Death’s pallid hue comes o’er thee, the glow of life decays;”. It was a perfect description of the usually beautiful hymn with a now dragging pace of Eeyore chasing a boneless chicken.

“Were you there” isn’t too bad, though I never understood the reason for the question. It always makes me think of it as the Catholic version of “I was emo BEFORE it was cool”.

I’d like to strike the “social concern” section from the list of liturgical hymns as well as anything with the “if you build it, he will come” approach.

At least we didn’t drag out O Sacred Head Surrounded when we sang it some Holy Weeks back. It really is a beautiful song. I also like Our Father, We Have Wandered, which borrows the tune from O Sacred Head.

“Were You There” just doesn’t seem solemn enough. Furthermore, we “are” there at every Mass. At every Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we are just as present at the Crucifixion of our Lord as were the Blessed Mother and Sts. John and Mary Magdalene.

Yes, definitely take out the social concern stuff and the communtiy-building business. Of course, that would leave Bob Hurd and OCP with nothing to sing about, since most of Bob’s music deals with the horizontal and very little vertical.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Now we are strickening the social concern section? Hymns such as “Lord, Whose love in Humble Service” need to go?

You know what, both of you are right. Jesus taught very little about concern for the “community” and the poor.

 

[benedictgal]

Now we are strickening the social concern section? Hymns such as “Lord, Whose love in Humble Service” need to go?

You know what, both of you are right. Jesus taught very little about concern for the “community” and the poor.

PGA, you are missing the point. When we make social concern more important than worshipping and adoring God, then there are some serious problems.

Songs like O Love of God that call for building up the community (with scant mention of worshipping and adoring God) make for poor liturgical music. Furthermore, did Jesus not tell Judas, “the poor you will always have with you, but you won’t always have Me?”

Furthermore, the first commandment is to love God. When God told Moses to approach Pharoah, the Lord’s request was that the Egyptian king let His people go so that they could worship Him. Worship is always the first order of things. When we make social concern and the community more important, than we’ve missed the boat completely. Maybe that is what your theology says, but, the Church believes and teaches that God comes first.

 

[Father_Tom]

PGA, you are missing the point. When we make social concern more important than worshipping and adoring God, then there are some serious problems.

Songs like O Love of God that call for building up the community (with scant mention of worshipping and adoring God) make for poor liturgical music. Furthermore, did Jesus not tell Judas, “the poor you will always have with you, but you won’t always have Me?”

Furthermore, the first commandment is to love God. When God told Moses to approach Pharoah, the Lord’s request was that the Egyptian king let His people go so that they could worship Him. Worship is always the first order of things. When we make social concern and the community more important, than we’ve missed the boat completely. Maybe that is what your theology says, but, the Church believes and teaches that God comes first.

I am curious as to your qualifications to determine which music is and is not appropriate for Mass.

Please elaborate?

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

PGA, you are missing the point. When we make social concern more important than worshipping and adoring God, then there are some serious problems.

Songs like O Love of God that call for building up the community (with scant mention of worshipping and adoring God) make for poor liturgical music. Furthermore, did Jesus not tell Judas, “the poor you will always have with you, but you won’t always have Me?”

Furthermore, the first commandment is to love God. When God told Moses to approach Pharoah, the Lord’s request was that the Egyptian king let His people go so that they could worship Him. Worship is always the first order of things. When we make social concern and the community more important, than we’ve missed the boat completely. Maybe that is what your theology says, but, the Church believes and teaches that God comes first.

I really think that you are missing the point.

When we care for the poor and the needy, we care for Christ.

We typically sing of such things on weeks that the Church has made that our focus through the choice of readings and prayers.

Furthermore, the best hymns - and there are some great ones - wrap the whole package together. For instance:

Lord, whose love in humble service bore the weight of human need, who did on the cross forsaken show us mercy’s perfect deed; We, your servants, bring the worship, not of voice alone but heart, consecrating to your purpose every gift which you impart.

The next verses then go on to speak of the needs of the poor and the community - while once again relating it back to the paschal mystery.

There are plenty of entrance and Communion antiphons in the graduale that speak about “us”. It is not accurate to say that a song should never talk about the community or who we are. That is not in keeping in line with the entrance, Communion, and offertory antiphons that are given to us, which should be our first choice for hymns and chants at mass.

It is simply misplaced piety to believe that every song and hymn needs to be directly about praising God.

 

[pnewton]

What is wrong with “Were you There?” We sang it as the communion hymn yesterday with SAB choir and congregation singing acappela. VERY reverant.
.

Absolutely nothing, at least not in regards to the original post. It is limited automatically by the liturgical calendar. I believe the initial complaint were about songs that are played all the time.

It is equally possible to go overboard the other way. If diversity becomes such a goal that new hymns are always incorporated you will lose participation.

 

[patches]

Patches

The “good Dr.” also stated that the Mozart, Bach, and Schubert Mass pieces were also appropriate.

He made the point that the trumpet is an instrument which inspires a sense of great pomp and royalty, the tympani, a commanding thunder illustrating power and presence.

These and similar instruments are connected, in our minds, to the Divine, or they have certain qualities about them which point to the Divine. However, a trumpet used to play a jazz piece during Mass would be contrary to this line of thinking, and would distract from the holy with its secular nature.

Good points. I think the “jazzy” vs. “royal” expression possibilities of the trumpet makes the point very well that it is not necessarily the instrument, but it’s musical implementation that should be the prime concern. (We had a trumpet player at our church that couldn’t understand why I didn’t want to use it every week, but limit it to feasts like Easter and Christ the King). Still, like all things in art, music has very strong subjective component that needs to be taken into account. I would hope the “harumphing” (from those disappointed that he used psalter rather than organ) wouldn’t drown out one of David’s psalms should he show up at our parish one Sunday for the responsorial.

 

[benedictgal]

I really think that you are missing the point.

When we care for the poor and the needy, we care for Christ.

We typically sing of such things on weeks that the Church has made that our focus through the choice of readings and prayers.

Furthermore, the best hymns - and there are some great ones - wrap the whole package together. For instance:

Lord, whose love in humble service bore the weight of human need, who did on the cross forsaken show us mercy’s perfect deed; We, your servants, bring the worship, not of voice alone but heart, consecrating to your purpose every gift which you impart.

The next verses then go on to speak of the needs of the poor and the community - while once again relating it back to the paschal mystery.

There are plenty of entrance and Communion antiphons in the graduale that speak about “us”. It is not accurate to say that a song should never talk about the community or who we are. That is not in keeping in line with the entrance, Communion, and offertory antiphons that are given to us, which should be our first choice for hymns and chants at mass.

It is simply misplaced piety to believe that every song and hymn needs to be directly about praising God.

Before you accuse me of missing points, it would do you well to re-read my posts, PGA. I didn’t mention the Graduals because the focus is very different.

I never said that I had an issue with the hymn, Lord Whose Love in Humble Service. In fact, I’ve used it several times. There are some hymns that are very problematic, especially the Spanish ones. For example, “Hombres Nuevos”, which OCP renamed “Danos Un Corazon” is tinged with liberation theology. When one of the Polish priests in our diocese heard the song (he had been working in South America), he asked us to not ever sing that song anymore because of its heavy liberation theolgy undertones. Sure enough, it talked about man being the creator of his own history and about fighting to build a new society.

Other hymns found in the OCP aresenal place more focus on what we are doing as opposed to what God is doing. That makes us the center of everything, rather than God. This is what the Holy Father aptly calls, “celebrating ourselves.”

 

[lvschant]

One small bit of humor… if you are attending a parish where OCP is used (about 75% of American parishes), you will most likely hear Dan Schutte’s Behold the Wood of the Cross this week. On another forum I read that more than one person has noticed a distinct similarity to the Gilligan’s Island theme song.

Listen carefully to the verse… “If a grain of wheat should upon this desert isle…”

See if you notice it when you hear it and report back…

There was also speculation about whether or not Palestrina would have borrowed from TV theme songs in composing Good Friday motets had he lived in an era with television

Hope you have a blessed Holy Week!

Janet.

 

[patches]

One small bit of humor… if you are attending a parish where OCP is used (about 75% of American parishes), you will most likely hear Dan Schutte’s Behold the Wood of the Cross this week. On another forum I read that more than one person has noticed a distinct similarity to the Gilligan’s Island theme song.

Listen carefully to the verse… “If a grain of wheat should upon this desert isle…”

See if you notice it when you hear it and report back…

There was also speculation about whether or not Palestrina would have borrowed from TV theme songs in composing Good Friday motets had he lived in an era with television

Hope you have a blessed Holy Week!

Janet.

The lyrics of “Amazing Grace” work frighteningly well with the Gilligan’s Island theme too. Whenever I can’t resist putting the two together, I wonder if “the weather started getting rough” won’t be true for me before long!

 

[lvschant]

Amazing Grace is another of my ‘not-favorites’, but which I seem to be asked to sing (along with “On Eagle’s Wings”) at every funeral

They were both on this list, right?
Janet.

 

[idrum677]

One small bit of humor… if you are attending a parish where OCP is used (about 75% of American parishes), you will most likely hear Dan Schutte’s Behold the Wood of the Cross this week. On another forum I read that more than one person has noticed a distinct similarity to the Gilligan’s Island theme song.

Listen carefully to the verse… “If a grain of wheat should upon this desert isle…”

See if you notice it when you hear it and report back…

:newidea: We made that discovery last year at choir rehersal.
It makes it very difficult to be somber and reflective during veneration.
Drat you Dan Schute!!!

There was also speculation about whether or not Palestrina would have borrowed from TV theme songs in composing Good Friday motets had he lived in an era with television

Nah, I think Palestrina was more of Green Acres fan.

 

[deSalingAway]

In response to Paix long ago:

Social concern hymns have as much place in the liturgy as does the Rosary. Both are prayers (sometimes), but neither have the focus on the Eucharist and the sacrifice of the Mass. The same goes for Marian celebrations. It’s a little…much to sing nothing but Marian hymns because we’re still there for the Eucharist. That is our focus. Not the Eucharist AND social concern, or the Eucharist AND multiculturalism.

(Jokingly) If the Mass had stayed in Latin, we wouldn’t have these problems because nobody would understand enough to change anything!

 

[pnewton]

Amazing Grace is another of my ‘not-favorites’, but which I seem to be asked to sing (along with “On Eagle’s Wings”) at every funeral

They were both on this list, right?
Janet.

Yes, but funeral’s a a different situation. The peace and comfort of the grieving family and their wishes should take a priority over frequency of usage.

 

[lvschant]

“Yes, but funeral’s a a different situation. The peace and comfort of the grieving family and their wishes should take a priority over frequency of usage.”

Indeed… when a family is suffering, if *Eagle’s Wings *will make the funeral more meaningful to them… by all means. I do think it is sad that virtually none of the most beautiful funeral pieces are even suggested to family members by Directors of Music… In Paradisum and the Chorus Angelorum, for example. I think they may even be undulgenced (I am not certain about that).

Much of this problem may be that other suggestions that may be better, liturgically, aren’t mentioned to the family members… And, we do have to have some standards beyond which we won’t go… just because a person liked the song “Stairway to Heaven” doesn’t mean it would be appropriate to a Catholic funeral Mass (and I’m not implying that *Amazing Grace *or *Eagle’s Wings *fall into that category, btw).

Isn’t it sad, though, that these two particular pieces have become so ubiquitous in parishes that they are the main pieces folks can remember and request at funerals, though? On Eagle’s Wings, for example, is nearly impossible for anyone other than the cantor to sing on the verses, for example. A truly pitiful choice, with regards to singability, imo.

Janet.

 

[lvschant]

Just for fun… listen and compare:

Here is the video of the Gilligan’s theme song:
video.aol.com/video/tv-gilligans-island-theme-song-sing-along/1857575

Unfortunately, even though Schutte’s Behold the Wood is a Catholic classic, I could not find a recording that had the verses (where the similarity lies)… only the refrain is posted on OCP’s site. You’ll just have to look at the hymnal and hum it, I guess…

If nothing else… enjoy a little trip down memory lane (for those of you old enough to remember!).

Janet.

 

[ac23]

if you are attending a parish where OCP is used (about 75% of American parishes)

Is this true? I’m trying to wrap my head around the difference between what is truly sacred music wholly appropriate for the liturgy and profane music with Christian lyrics used for liturgy.

I’m starting to agree that OCP songs are questionable. Does anyone have any suggestions for me to read online?

Unfortunately all I have known my whole life is the Breaking Bread. Sad as it is for me, that’s what I knew as “traditional” music

 

[lvschant]

ac23:

gosh… where to begin… almost everyone I know who is now working toward more liturgically appropriate music was just where you are now at some point… OCP has had a strangle-hold (imo) over the parish music for such a long time, most people have a similar history. That is not to say that OCP’s competition in general is much better (I’m not wild about GIA either, although I think their product is way better than OCP in terms of material quality, accompaniments, etc.). If I had to choose a hymnal in modern notation to use at this point in my life, I’d probably ask for the Adoremus Hymnal…

For me, it was a sort of process of getting really just basically tired of the Pan de Vida, I am the Bread of Life, All are Welcome, etc., etc., stuff. I sort of hoped there was something better out there, but had no idea what it might be… I sang in choirs and as a cantor in many different locations around the country (my husband has a job that causes us to move a lot). Some places had contemporary choirs (one place had live mariachi music every weekend!) … I also played the piano… I loved to play many of those praise-music pieces because the piano accompaniments were fun to play. But, over time, I came to think it just wasn’t doing it correctly for the Holy Mass.

I had heard the Chant CD that came out 14 years ago or so… liked it, but initially found it a bit boring (hard to believe my attitude then).

Then, I began singing with a medieval music group that performed various types of early music with authentically medieval instruments… some sacred music, but also dances, etc. in various languages… early French, Portuguese, Latin, etc. In singing with them, I got just a taste of actually singing Gregorian chant and a whole new world opened up for me.

I found the group Church Music Association of America (CMAA) online when searching for Gregorian chant resources. I joined, became one of the founding members of our local schola… I have learned an amazing amount of things from the other members in a short period of time and my conversion to (what I now consider to be) true Sacred Music is well underway.

I guess I would suggest checking out the musicasacra (dot) com website first… there is a wonderful archive of the magazine they publish available… there is a wealth of information going back many years… and the great thing is… all the information about chant and sacred polyphony is all still relevant now… there is also a great list of relevant church documents, instructional books free to download about reading the notation and a list of member parishes so you may be able to find a group where you live…

There is also a forum there… great chance to read what others working in the field think and are talking about… in your own local area, I would be tempted to try and find a church that does at least some chant (whether ordinaries or propers) at Mass… or, if unable to find any chant, then look for a parish where they do some good baroque stuff (and don’t go to the contemporary or Life Teen Mass )… you’ll be at least at the higher quality end of church music. Then, at least you could get some feel for what the alternative is…

My last thought for you would be to tread lightly… not everyone (by a long shot) agrees with me… we have to be charitable toward those who don’t share the same tastes in music. Those working in the world of chant and polyphony are a very small (in some places nonexistent) minority. Just get the information for yourself and learn as much as you can… you’ll meet others with similar thoughts along the way…

I hope this may be helpful to you in some way… Janet.