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tomarin
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I’m fairly sure that from Hus’s point of view, this was a distinction without a difference.
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Doxus
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It’s interesting to see that your first response to a post about condoms being effective at stopping AIDS is to attack sexual promiscuity in general. The fear and loathing toward sex that the Catholic church instilled in you is startling to someone not indoctrinated. And let’s not mention this implied hatred of women oozing through your post. “Half of women who get abortions… God forbid we try chastity.” How dare those women try to exercise control over their sexual organs!
Browsing through this forum, I’ve found many examples of Catholics expressing hatred and disdain toward women who use birth control. Words like “Harlot”, “Hussy”, and even “Slut” abound. Where does this come from? Is it really just because they refuse to let the holy male semen impregnate them? Is it really because of Gen. 38:6-10? Or perhaps could it be something else?
I’m getting off topic.
First it’s worth noting that the Catholic church has relented and is allowing its followers in Sub-Saharan Africa to use condoms, after the entire national community condemned them for their denial of this effective means of stopping a deadly epidemic. But why did they deny it in the first place?
By saying that condoms should not be used to prevent AIDS, the church was in fact saying, “It’s better to contract a deadly disease, spread it to others, and die, rather than commit a sin.” Yes, of course abstinence is effective, but you’re not going to get millions of people to all be abstinent their whole lives before marriage. It’s been tried, and it’s failed. Regardless of whether it’s desirable or not, sinful or not, pre-marital sex happens in communities. By denying those people condoms you are essentially saying, “Because you don’t live up to the example of Christ, you deserve whatever disease you catch. You deserve to suffer and die.” I’ve even heard one Catholic (don’t get me wrong, I don’t take it as a church policy) offer up Matthew 5:30 as a solution.
I’m sorry. That’s revolting.
Doesn’t the Catholic church teach forgiveness of sins? It seems to me letting people become sick and die from AIDS just because they commit a “sin” isn’t very forgiving. AIDs is a punishment that can’t be forgiven away. You are condemning them with no chance of redemption. Doesn’t seem very Christ-like to me, sorry.
Anyway, in light of the fact that condoms are effective at stopping sexual transmission of the HIV virus with a success rate of ~95%; in light of the fact that without condoms AIDS is much more likely to be contracted during sexual intercourse, and thus spreads much more easily and is harder to wipe out of the community; in light of the propaganda and ignorance the Catholic church promoted in AIDS afflicted regions leading to decreased and improper condom use which increases risk of infection; in light of the Catholic church certainly being aware of the overwhelming scientific consensus that condoms are an effective and critical part of any effort to eliminate AIDS… And considering that the organization does generally try to save lives and committed its crime out of religious motivation, although misguided and wrong-headed…
I accuse the Roman Catholic Church of Manslaughter in the 3rd degree of millions of Sub-Saharan Africans and others world-wide for the knowing and deliberate, though non-malicious, denial of the medical use of prophylactics for prevention of the spread of HIV / AIDS.
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PeaceInChrist
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Thank you for completely ignoring my points about perfect use and teen pregnancy rates before the sexual revolution. And I highly doubt the Church will condone condom usage, ever, seeing as contraception has been condemned since the very beginning of Christianity (see the Didache). Truth doesn’t cease to be truth because it becomes unpopular.
Abstinence worked well when society was homogeneous in its Christian convictions. Teen pregnancy rates were lower than today. Single motherhood was much rarer. And, of course, abortion was much rarer. The ‘you’ll never get everyone to do it so it won’t work’ argument doesn’t fly because it also applies to condoms. You’ll never get everyone to use them perfectly and every time. My abortion statistic proved that. But damn the truth, right?
I have also never seen anyone declare those on birth control to be ‘sluts’ or ‘hussies’ or whatever else you claim. You’ll never see us condone birth control or abortion, or tell people it’s OK to use it, but that doesn’t mean we hate people that do these things. We just pray for them, that they may be healed by Christ.
I enjoyed your rant, though. It is good to see the kind of utter hatred the Church is facing. It reminds us of what we are up against, and that we must prepare and pray constantly.
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jcrichton
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…actually the truth is farther appart… condoms are not 100% save (as it is often claimed) and the behavior (“safe sex”) tends to increase the risk factor (multiple sex with one+ sex partner who has multiple sex with one+ sex partments to the “x”); abstinance: 0% transmission of aids and other stds or pregnancy; marital fidelity reduces the risk factor to the level of the fidelity and the pre-existing aids/stds when the practice is began…
…one more thing, dependency on “safe sex” tools infers that humans cannot control themselves, their wills, their passions, and their appetites… that abstinance and marital fidelity is beyond most humans mental capabilities… :banghead:
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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…please, don’t forget to note that secular government did not practice “innocent till proven guilty,” or “advocate for the defendant…”
As I understand it, many who were faced with the often extreme judgment that would befall upon them would state/claim some sort of heresy so that the Church would be forced to supply and advocate… interestingly enough, whenever heresies were denounced the more serious judgments (death by “xyz”) would be set aside… ultimately, the Church never passed a single death judgment upon even the most destructive heretics (Martin Luther died past his eighties!).
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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jcrichton
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…so the Church should have fough against the secular government to stop it from sentencing Hus to death?
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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Thank you!
…once again the Church, or is it Yahweh God?, is at fault for man’s direct choice!
…it seems that you ignore that the mandates of the Catholic Church are equaly ignore by those such as you as those contracting aids and other stds… you seem also to ignore that every time that the Church adopts a stance it is not to support cultural changes… you specially seem to ignore that you are not the first to pass judgment on the Church nor on God because it suits you to blame the Church for what you and those of your mindset chose to perpetuate: death!
FYI: in the US alone sexual education (with the promotions of prophylatics, abortion and abortificients) along with “needle exchange” was promoted as the method to stem hiv/aids/stds, unwanted pregnancy and others… the premise was flawed from the beginning… the same agencies that made such claims are now pushing to provide this failed plan to elementary-age children…
…it’s as dumb as stemming the mass murdering of people by providing more guns into an already saturated environment: without abstinance failure is the end result!
Maran atha!
Angel
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PeaceInChrist
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Yes, I should have mentioned that the Church in her trials and judgements was far fairer and humane to those under her legal jurisdiction than the secular authorities of the time. As bad as people paint the Church, her concepts of mercy have always been ahead of secular entities.
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Arizona_Mike
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At a time when religious belief was important to the vast majority of people alive, and the fate of one’s eternal soul was a prime concern, it was felt that those who led people astray and put their immortal souls in danger were, in fact, committing a grave evil, on a par with homicide and treason.
Some of those tried for heresy, such as the Albigensians, also taught and practiced beliefs as part of their religion that were a direct threat to civil authority, such as a belief that lawful civil authority did not apply to them and that oaths (the basis for contract laws and civil agreements) were null and void, which made them a threat to the secular authorities.
The sheer number of deaths of Catholics (and other religious) under atheist regimes in the last century far outnumbers the number of deaths related to heresy trials and inquisitions, even if we include martyrdom of Catholics under Protestants (such as St. Edmund Campion and the other priets martyred by the Anglicans) and Muslims. I can come up with some numbers if its very important to you.
Some of those tried for heresy, such as the Albigensians, also taught and practiced beliefs as part of their religion that were a direct threat to civil authority, such as a belief that lawful civil authority did not apply to them and that oaths (the basis for contract laws and civil agreements) were null and void, which made them a threat to the secular authorities.
The sheer number of deaths of Catholics (and other religious) under atheist regimes in the last century far outnumbers the number of deaths related to heresy trials and inquisitions, even if we include martyrdom of Catholics under Protestants (such as St. Edmund Campion and the other priets martyred by the Anglicans) and Muslims. I can come up with some numbers if its very important to you.
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tomarin
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I think everything the secular authorities did was with the blessing and approval of the Church. I think it’s a whitewash of history to assert that the Church was not responsible for the execution of heretics, simply because they did not light the fire and prepare the kindling.
The truth is as Arizona Mike explains above, in that time thinking the wrong things and teaching the wrong things was considered very dangerous to the public order.
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Mary_Ellen
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The blog called “Shameless Popery” has a good article on this topic:
catholicdefense.blogspot.com/…hing-have.html
If the Catholic Church’s teachings against condoms are causing millions of Africans to contract AIDS, we should expect to see heavily-Catholic countries with far higher AIDS rates than their non-Catholic counterparts. … Not only is there absolutely no evidence of millions of people contracting AIDS in Catholic-dominated areas, the opposite appears to be true.
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jcrichton
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…so you have proof? You have documents that prove that Popes/Bishops sentenced heretics to death?
…why did they let Martin Luther get away… was the Vatican’s albino special forces out to lunch those decades?
Maran atha!
Angel
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Arizona_Mike
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That link appears to be not working, Mary_Ellen.
Here are some working links from that site (which is a very good blog) on the subject - I think the first one is the one to which you refer:
catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/09/what-impact-does-catholic-teaching-have.html
catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/10/disturbing-new-evidence-on.html
catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2010/11/pope-benedict-and-condoms.html
catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2010/12/vatican-settles-condom-debate.html
It’s ridiculous to claim that Catholic medical charities should have to change their beliefs on moral issues to suit secularists. Secular charities are welcome to decide on their own policies. If I fund Catholic relief charities through the United Way or the CFC, I expect them to operate under Catholic teaching, and I would no more expect them to supply condoms to support illicit sex than I would expect them to fund abortions.
Teaching that one should NOT have sex with someone other than your spouse is the ONLY way to ensure that HIV/AIDS and other STDs are not spread, as well as to avoid a host of other deadly social ills that adultery, fornication, and prostitution bring, including increased domestic violence, divorce, abandoned children, human trafficking, child molestation and prostitution, an increased rate of violent interpersonal disputes between males, increased genetic disorders (due to a reduction in the rate of unwitting incest, always a problem in small communities with a high rate of adultery and fornication - you may unknowingly be having sex with a sibling or first cousin if your father was adulterous in a small village), and many other problems.
The Church’s teachings on chastity affect the whole human being and the whole community in a positive way.
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livingwordunity
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tomarin
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I’m saying that they knew what would happen to the sentenced. Are you seriously arguing the opposite?
The Pope at that time was distracted by other matters. I’m not saying prosecuting heretics was always the number one priority or that it was enforced consistently. I believe the historical record shows that in many cases the Church authorities were pretty lenient, giving people the benefit of the doubt until it was glaringly obvious what was going on and also giving them many opportunities to recant once they had been accused. And had they recanted I assume all would have been forgiven.
In Luther’s case, I seem to remember that if he was summoned to Rome to explain himself (which if it happened only happened late in the game as far as the Reformation is concerned, too late for the Church to contain what it belatedly realized was a crisis situation) he did not present himself, unlike Jan Hus. That probably made all the difference.
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jcrichton
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Hi, Arizona Mike!
I fully concur!
…I always knew that atheist would one day dumb-down the world (monkey see, hear, speak…) but I always expect it to be far after I was gone… not so… to my amazement even the leader of the largest “democratic” nation in the world promotes abortion and abortifacients as ‘women’s health;’ what’s worst is that fools, like cattle, just fall right behind as the secularist anti-Catholic and anti-Christ media continues to sell the culture of death as the ‘savior’ of mankind (kill off the poor, the aged, the sick… and voilà, the new world order’s version of the American or is it the Aryan master race’s Dream?
…here are three facts about planned parenthood, one of the nation’s heavy proponents of the culture of death er women’s health:
…the UN holds just as skewed vision of the “new world order” as it blindly supports the culture of death ( liveactionnews.org/international-planned-parenthood-federation-gets-more-help-from-un-agencies/ ) and the issues of hiv/aids/stds… cannot be halted not because the Church teaches abstinance and marital fidelity but because the culture of life has more than the overtly support of such agencies as above but it prides itself of conquering the minds of the world’s future:
…and how and who is making this promotion?:
…yeah, America’s tax dollars working very hard to achieve women’s health and the American Dream!
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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…my argument is that while history’s revisionists continue to promote anti-Catholic beliefs these are based mostly on far-removed-after-the-fact prejudiced judgments where the Church is blamed for everything that has gone wrong (which includes the claim that the Church taught that the world was flat and burned to death all who opposed her); they take facts out of content (as the claimed millions and millions put to death by the Church prior to, during and after the Crusades) and ignore even historically known facts (as the commonly held belief that everything revolved around the earth as the earth was believed to have been the center of the universe).
…as for Luther, he was commanded to renounce his heretical beliefs way prior to the explosion (not that Luther had foreknown that it would happen) that catapulted Christendom into war (again not that Luther had any control over this since it mostly happened because various monarchs sought to divest themselves of the Church’s influence and judgment took advantage of Luther’s rebellion and hitched their’s to Luther’s)–again, to suggest that the Church took part in fomenting the religious wars/battles is to be ignorant of the truth (as naming any Pope, Hitler’s).
Maran atha!
Angel
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