Catholic Mass attendance plummets in Poland

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I read in yesterday’s newspaper an article on
the “victory” gained by the Solidarity movement
in Gadansk(sp.) The pope(St.JP II) tried THREE
times to visit the naval shipyards where 18 demonst-
rators were killed during a protest in 1970. Finally
he threatened to cancel his visit to Poland if they
refused him permission!
 
This is why, as I posted years ago, Protestants are sending missionaries to re-Christianize Poland and Western Europe. But you guys laughed and said you hope their efforts fail.

Face it. The Catholic Church in Poland is dying.

I’ve been to Poland twice and speak simple Polish. College students there aren’t that different from American college students. They care about partying. They want the financial prosperity of secular France, Germany, and the UK. They believe too much Catholic tradition over the years has held them back economically. They believe Komorowski is not liberal enough.

So years later, I still ask. What is the Catholic Church doing to re-Christianize Europe?
 
GLam8833 said:
My impression from the Polish family I know
is that WORLDLINESS has crept in to their
lives, they are doing well work-wise and are
financially healthy, but they smoke and drink
and party to disco-rock music, it disgusted me
to be at their Christmas party!
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Made me a chuckle a little. 😊
 
irishpatrick said:
Yes, if I desired to do the research I could post that. However, I am not sure what good any of that does. In truth, anyone who looks around the state of the Church in the USA, Canada, and Europe, has little doubt that belief in the Real Presence has plummeted, along with belief in a great many things. Catholics abort in high numbers, they contracept at close to the same rate as the general population, they live together, they fornicate, they do nearly all the same things that the general population does, and Mass attendance has plummeted in the same period that Catholics have walked away from their faith.

All of these “things” mirror each other. If Catholics believed that the Eucharist is truly Jesus/God, than they would not do a great many things they do. Further, if a majority of Catholics believed that the Eucharist is truly Jesus/God, than weekly Mass attendance rates would not not be in the 25-30% range (which is the exact mirrior of the Gallup Poll reflecting only 30% of Catholics believe the Eucharist is truly Jesus/God). In the 40s and 50s, Mass attendance was around 74%, with more strict pre-Mass fasting regulations and more Holy Days of Obligaton.

Belief in the Eucharist as being truly Jesus’ Real Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, is something that transforms and converts people–Catholics who believe the Eucharist is Jesus/God will think twice before getting abortions, divorcing, living together, etc…it is all linked together and it all mirrors each other.

Finally, if belief in the Real Presence were held by say 80% of all Catholics, than confession lines would be stacked full (like they used to be back in the days of 74% Mass attendance).

All one has to do is to take a look at the practices of lay Catholics to understand the truth.
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I don’t agree with this.

I think that many Catholics DO know that Jesus is Truly Present in the Blessed Sacrament and DO believe in Him…but they deliberately and coldly choose to disobey Him anyway because they want what they want when they want it.

Lucifer knew Who God was, but he chose to sin anyway.

Most of us recognized our parents as our parents when we were young, but there were times that we simply chose, with great deliberation, to defy them.

And in the same way, Christians know very well Who God is, and Catholics KNOW that He is Present in the Blessed Sacrament, but they choose, with full knowledge, to defy Him.

I don’t know the answer to that. I don’t think “catechesis” is the answer.
 
CaliLobo said:
This is why, as I posted years ago, Protestants are sending missionaries to re-Christianize Poland and Western Europe. But you guys laughed and said you hope their efforts fail.

Face it. The Catholic Church in Poland is dying.

I’ve been to Poland twice and speak simple Polish. College students there aren’t that different from American college students. They care about partying. They want the financial prosperity of secular France, Germany, and the UK. They believe too much Catholic tradition over the years has held them back economically. They believe Komorowski is not liberal enough.

So years later, I still ask. What is the Catholic Church doing to re-Christianize Europe?
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My Polish-born parents are probably rolling over in their graves. 😦
 
With shephers like this one, or this one, or that one, it appears that the flock is safer on the outside than on the inside.

Also, the Polish Church itself will do just fine with zero mass attendance – the state gives it $300M of tax money per year.
 
Cat said:
I don’t agree with this.

I think that many Catholics DO know that Jesus is Truly Present in the Blessed Sacrament and DO believe in Him…but they deliberately and coldly choose to disobey Him anyway because they want what they want when they want it.

Lucifer knew Who God was, but he chose to sin anyway.

Most of us recognized our parents as our parents when we were young, but there were times that we simply chose, with great deliberation, to defy them.

And in the same way, Christians know very well Who God is, and Catholics KNOW that He is Present in the Blessed Sacrament, but they choose, with full knowledge, to defy Him.

I don’t know the answer to that. I don’t think “catechesis” is the answer.
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There is rarely ever just one solution. Yet, teaching Catholics about the truth of the Real Presence will go a long way. Consider this:

In the 50s Mass attendance was at 74%, while belief in the Real Presence was above 70%.
Today, Mass attendance is in the 25-30% range, while belief in the Real Presence is in the 30% range.​

It seems clear that just 50-60 years ago Catholics understood things far better than they do today. It also seems that belief in the Real Presence coincides with Mass attendance rates…this, of course, is anecdotal, yet still compelling.
 
irishpatrick said:
There is rarely ever just one solution. Yet, teaching Catholics about the truth of the Real Presence will go a long way. Consider this:

In the 50s Mass attendance was at 74%, while belief in the Real Presence was above 70%.
Today, Mass attendance is in the 25-30% range, while belief in the Real Presence is in the 30% range.​

It seems clear that just 50-60 years ago Catholics understood things far better than they do today. It also seems that belief in the Real Presence coincides with Mass attendance rates…this, of course, is anecdotal, yet still compelling.
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Belief? Heck, who knows or can define the Real Presence? Or the Holy Sacrifice, for that matter?
 
ProVobis said:
Belief? Heck, who knows or can define the Real Presence? Or the Holy Sacrifice, for that matter?
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I believe the Real Presence is very well defined by the Lord. It is truly Him!

The Holy Sacrifice is also Him! 🙂
 
weller2 said:
With shephers like this one, or this one, or that one, it appears that the flock is safer on the outside than on the inside.

Also, the Polish Church itself will do just fine with zero mass attendance – the state gives it $300M of tax money per year.
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According to these stats, the Catholic Church is the safest place for children to be in. It’s unfortunate that you secularists never talk about the perils of being in public schools, hollywood studios, sports teams or the like with the same tenor as your attacks against the Church, because what it appears like to me is that you don’t really care about sexually abused children but are just looking for whatever you can throw against the church, like in this thread which was about a different topic in the first place.

I can’t wait for WYD. I don’t think I’ll be speaking Polish, but hopefully they speak some English!
 
CaliLobo said:
This is why, as I posted years ago, Protestants are sending missionaries to re-Christianize Poland and Western Europe. But you guys laughed and said you hope their efforts fail.

Face it. The Catholic Church in Poland is dying.

I’ve been to Poland twice and speak simple Polish. College students there aren’t that different from American college students. They care about partying. They want the financial prosperity of secular France, Germany, and the UK. They believe too much Catholic tradition over the years has held them back economically. They believe Komorowski is not liberal enough.

So years later, I still ask. What is the Catholic Church doing to re-Christianize Europe?
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I think it’d be great if we had something like the mormon missionaries.
 
I considered it inevitable after the fall of Communism. Catholicism was part of the bulwark against oppression. With the oppression relieved, there’s less attachment to the faith. Poland is joining the “comfortable” countries. Peace and prosperity, ironically, isn’t the best time for religions.

I’m not aware of any singular event that had a lasting impact on religiosity for the better. Singular events can’t do that. However, religiosity has seen periods of increase due to longer-term trends. E.g., religiosity saw a resurgence when it was seen as a response to the anti-religious communism. Looking around the world today, I see a couple of big threats Christianity can confront though none as clear as communism. Radical Islam and income inequality come to mind.
 
CaliLobo said:
I’ve been to Poland twice and speak simple Polish. College students there aren’t that different from American college students. They care about partying. They want the financial prosperity of secular France, Germany, and the UK. They believe too much Catholic tradition over the years has held them back economically. They believe Komorowski is not liberal enough.
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This has been my impression as well. Also, the extent of the priest sex abuse scandal is becoming known much later in Poland than in the U.S. or Ireland–the first big stories really only broke last year. Catholics I’ve talked to are disillusioned because they saw or wanted to think of Polish priests as an exception to what was going on elsewhere in the world.

I think younger Poles also the see the Catholic Church basically as an arm of the government and have thus grown extremely cynical about the Church and government funding of the Church. Under Communism, the Church resisted the State; now it is seen as an enforcer for the State, and there is no real separation of Church and State as called for in the Polish constitution.

Although somewhat dated now, the author of this article sees the writing on the wall already in 1995:

law2.byu.edu/lawreview/archives/1995/2/dan.pdf
 
johnmann said:
I considered it inevitable after the fall of Communism. Catholicism was part of the bulwark against oppression. With the oppression relieved, there’s less attachment to the faith. Poland is joining the “comfortable” countries. Peace and prosperity, ironically, isn’t the best time for religions.

I’m not aware of any singular event that had a lasting impact on religiosity for the better. Singular events can’t do that. However, religiosity has seen periods of increase due to longer-term trends. E.g., religiosity saw a resurgence when it was seen as a response to the anti-religious communism. Looking around the world today, I see a couple of big threats Christianity can confront though none as clear as communism. Radical Islam and income inequality come to mind.
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That is a good point.

Ive thought about something like that in the past. It always seems God mysteriously sends signs and advocates when chaos and oppression are in abundance, but never on an ordinary or peaceful day. I used to think religion was mans way of rallying the troops during these times.
 
Estevao said:
According to these stats, the Catholic Church is the safest place for children to be in.
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Being Polish, I can assure you that exploits of certain bishops are a major factor which contributes to the drop in attendance.

Can you imagine a situation where a bishop who was himself shielding an active pedophile would be chosen to lead the national conference of bishops, and then during his tenure he stated that children molest priests, and by the way, he is the same guy who was preparing the nationwide anti-pedophilia policy?

Aside from pedophilia, the Polish clergy has a widespread alcohol problem. One bishop drove his car into a lamp post in the middle of the day in downtown Warsaw – the fact that nobody was killed qualifies as a minor miracle.

Oh, and let’s not forget the real estate fraud scheme.

With bishops like that, who needs enemies?
 
Dave_Noonan said:
Under Communism, the Church resisted the State; now it is seen as an enforcer for the State, and there is no real separation of Church and State as called for in the Polish constitution.
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You have it backwards – the State is now an enforcer for the Church.

Case in point, in the 1993 abortion law, article 3.1 says: State and local organs will cooperate and help the Catholic Church and other churches, and non-profit organizations who organize help for pregnant women …].

BTW, a major problem with Polish 1997 constitution is that it does NOT call for separation of state and church. Instead it says that the state should be neutral with respect to religion. (And no effective separation is possible as long as the 1993 concordat is in force.)
 
weller2 said:
Being Polish, I can assure you that exploits of certain bishops are a major factor which contributes to the drop in attendance.

Can you imagine a situation where a bishop who was himself shielding an active pedophile would be chosen to lead the national conference of bishops, and then during his tenure he stated that children molest priests, and by the way, he is the same guy who was preparing the nationwide anti-pedophilia policy?

Aside from pedophilia, the Polish clergy has a widespread alcohol problem. One bishop drove his car into a lamp post in the middle of the day in downtown Warsaw – the fact that nobody was killed qualifies as a minor miracle.

Oh, and let’s not forget the real estate fraud scheme.

With bishops like that, who needs enemies?
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If anything will save Europe from Islam, it is Protestantism.

The fact that Poland is now affected is striking a chord at CAF members I see.

By the way no one has answered my question. What is the Catholic Church doing to re-Christianize Europe?
 
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